<div class="quote_poster">Quoting a13x:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't understand why you are defending this guy so vehemently. The way you talk I'd think that he's GM of the year. From my point of view here is what i see from rob babcock: Draft 04, Babcock on Araujo: "nba ready" "great court sense" year later, on Araujo "needs time to develop" Draft 05, Babcock on Joey Graham "NBA ready" "great court sense" What is the logic of drafting "NBA ready" players if we are rebuilding .. we should be drafting on potential if we're really going to give people time to develop. Please tell me what you think rob babcocks "plan" is, why it works .. and why Kiki wouldn't do a better job with our money in the off season….</div> Babs, in his rookie season, obviously made a mistake, on Araujo. He didn't scout anyone because he was hired so close to the draft, and didn't send out any scouts. So he could only go on reports from other scouts. He could only rely on what he was told. I don't see your point on Graham. He was an excellent pick, because he brings what we need, toughness and defense. "Unlike many draft prospects Graham has the experience of 4 years of progression in college. He is one of the most NBA ready prospects out there … Extremely strong body, he can bench press over 400 pounds… Has good post skills with face up and back to the basket ability ... Excellent free throw shooter ... " http://nbadraft.net/profiles/joeygraham.asp Just because they are said to "NBA ready", does not mean they do not have the potential to be superstars like Gerald Green. In fact, their chances of sucess in this league are greatly widened. Graham was a fine pick, enough said. Graham and Hoff have tons of potential. His plan is to rebuild. I'm not sure if I have to define it for all of you. Well, it means to do badly, only in hopes of doing better later. Understand now? We already have a brilliant core, once this nightmare of a season ends, we'll have even more. All I'm saying about Babs is that the good he has done. (Calderon, James, Sow, Hoff, Bonner, Villy, Graham, and of course trusty Ukic. Since he didn't draft Bosh I wont add him, but on top of all those guys, we'd have something like Bosh, Gay, and another high pick, hell we might manage to trade up and get shelden with our pick from denver) (http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/rob_babcock.htm) He said that he said he needed 3 or so years to be a winning basketball club, give it to him. The sad thing is, some people actually expected to win and are angry because we aren't, which can only say one thing for you. Honestly, you can't only point 2 or three bad things he has done, and automatically assume he is a bad GM. That's why I replied with a sarcastic remark -- to whoever asked me.
Can I ask anyone exactly what would be the point of firing either one of them? Everyone knew coming into this season that our team was just not talented enough yet to be a winning team. I think we have to bite the bullet this year and focus on the bigger picture. Losing sucks but what exactly will firing do to help our situation? If we fire Mitchell we still have to pay for his salary for the following year. Fire Babcock and some other GM with different vision will tear this team up AGAIN. I like the way this team is headed despite all the losing, I can see things in this team that give me hope. For now let us stick with the devil's we know and just have the knowledge that before things to get better they must get worse. Just think of this lineup for the future and keep on supporting the Raptors: PG- Calderone SG- Ukic SF- Villanueva or Graham PF- Bosh C- Someone we can throw 5 million dollars to that can rebound Not to mention the picks we have this upcoming year. We are going to be okay. Just be patient.
I'm not honestly as down on Rob Babcock as many on these boards. He's got a bit of a stew on his hands but the only way to judge him, I believe is to see him through another draft. A lot of the problems with the Barneys relate to the time before Babcock came on the scene. The Vince Carter situation was an issue related to our friend, the "Super Wiener" Richard Peddie. I think if anyone, he is the one who should have been dumped and a good long time ago There was never going to be a "great" trade for Vince Carter. Years back you could have gotten Shawn Marion for him straight up. To me, that they got two first rounders is still the good part of the deal made for him. I might have been more likely to go with Danny Granger last year at 14, but I think Joey Graham will be solid enough I think Hoffa has shown signs of getting better, at least on the road. Fans in Toronto are merciless, and they are seriously giving him the Larry Murphy treatment, but on the road, especially in the last trip Hof should some potential, based solely on playing with confidence. It's hard to have that same level at home right now since all the fans at the ACC do is boo the guy all the time. If you are looking for the second coming of Shaq, Hoffa isn't going to be your guy, but I do think he can do an adequate Eric Montross impersonation, which is what the Barneys need. If he can lean on the bigger centers defensively, hold some guys down on the boards using his brawn so that guys like Bosh, Graham and Villenueva can grabs caroms, then I think he is doing okay. If you can get anything resembling the offensive performance that he had in Sacramento, then I think you take it and run To me I think the focus in this off-season needs to be in getting some veteran leadership. I think Mike James is a decent guy to keep, if you can keep him. Looking at what will be out there free agent wise, there isn't much that will be available that can help you. Maybe you look to see if you can land a Cliff Robinson or a Brian Grant at the right number. Other than that I think you have to dangle one of your first rounders and maybe a guy like MoPete to see if you can get someone from a winning program with leadership skills You can't underestimate the impact of years of neglect and mismanagement by guys like Glen Grunwald, Richard Peddie and the rest of the MLSE cast of characters. Let's not forget these moves: The Toronto Raptors Select 20th Overall - Kareen Rush (2002) With Tayshaun Prince,Nenad Krstic, Dan Gadzuric and Carlos Boozer on the board 17th Overall - Michael Bradley (2001) With Zach Randolph, Jamal Tinsley, Jason Collins, Brendan Haywood, Tony Parker, Bobby Simmons and Gilbert Arenas on the board 12th Overall - Alex Radojevic (1999) With Corey Maggette, William Avery, Ron Artest, James Posey, Kenny Thomas, Devean George, Andrei Kirilienko, Jumain Jones and Emanuel Ginobli on the board Let's not get too sentimental about the past regime. They put us in the state we are today and it's going to take time to dig out Have fun................
I have a feeling that two things might happen a year or two down the road: In the case that Babcock stays as GM: Everyone will praise him for developing such a solid team and sticking with his plan from year one. He will have a playoff team with key players that are signed beyond a few years. In the case that Babcock gets fired: Another GM will take on this team and develope its talent and be regarded as a genius when it was really Rob Babcock who engineered this whole team from the start. People in Toronto really have short memories...especially basketball fans. We all forget that it was Grunwald who got us in this terrible cap situation in the first place. Be patient.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Not to mention the picks we have this upcoming year. We are going to be okay. Just be patient.</div> Okay? Honestly, we're going to be a lot better then okay. Assuming Hoff and Sow don't pan out, we could easily get someone like Shelden Williams. The people that are down on Babs, are the people who have no basketball IQ, or any sense of logical thinking. PG- Calderone SG- Ukic SF- Villanueva or Graham PF- Bosh C- Someone we can throw 5 million dollars to that can rebound That line up is fine and all, but we're going to be a lot better then that, considering all the young kids we have, and will get it. CourtVision said it all, nothing left to say.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post"> Honestly, you can't only point 2 or three bad things he has done, and automatically assume he is a bad GM. That's why I replied with a sarcastic remark -- to whoever asked me.</div> Do yourself a favor and actually read what people say, I'm pretty sure you'll see more than 2 criticisms. Don't waste everyone's time and act like they don't exist. Main point is everything we have done that is "rebuilding" for the future is pretty similar formula to other teams that have sucked forever and never dragged themselves out of the basement. So tell me why it's going to work.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">okay so u got more potential than that quarterback meathead of hers, but she's got history and her unrequited love for him in those 11 lonely years ensures that she's doesn't see his flaws. clearly very few (major US cities) can make her happy like we can and we stuck by her during some of those lonely winters (like this one) and we don't even get a goodbye. our cries are drowned out by the singing of "God Bless America". people like us and our lover (the raptors) don't make this best decisions in love (like saying moving the Winnipeg Jets to Phoenix where the wnba franchise gets more press then the coyates in spite of what gretzky says). I loved Her even though she didn't even stop to learn my name.</div> You're ignoring a key point about our ladyfriend. Sure, history and location may matter a little bit to her, but she's one very shallow individual. If you can provide her with the goods then that's all that truely matters. And trust me, we can provide the goods. We got the $$$ (our large market) and we can lavish her with attention (our large pesky media provides a ton of attention)...... She's just a money hungry attention whore, so there's no reason for her to stray when she's got mr.right staring right at her.....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see your point on Graham. He was an excellent pick, because he brings what we need, toughness and defense. "Unlike many draft prospects Graham has the experience of 4 years of progression in college. He is one of the most NBA ready prospects out there … Extremely strong body, he can bench press over 400 pounds… Has good post skills with face up and back to the basket ability ... Excellent free throw shooter ... " http://nbadraft.net/profiles/joeygraham.asp Just because they are said to "NBA ready", does not mean they do not have the potential to be superstars like Gerald Green. In fact, their chances of sucess in this league are greatly widened. Graham was a fine pick, enough said. Graham and Hoff have tons of potential.</div> I'm just wondering, what makes u think Graham was an "excellent" pick? How is he excellent when he's been struggling ever since he got here?..... and u bring up his defense when that's actually a major concern. He was brought here to provide this team w/ defense, but so far his man to man defense has been very disappointing, it seems as though almost everyone he guards can blow by him with ease..... I'm not saying that he sucks or that he's hopeless.... I'm just saying that we shouldn't get our hopes up with Graham considering his poor performance thus far.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay? Honestly, we're going to be a lot better then okay. Assuming Hoff and Sow don't pan out, we could easily get someone like Shelden Williams. The people that are down on Babs, are the people who have no basketball IQ, or any sense of logical thinking. PG- Calderone SG- Ukic SF- Villanueva or Graham PF- Bosh C- Someone we can throw 5 million dollars to that can rebound </div> That line up you posted was a more of an "aww" team than a "wow" team you sound as if they are all going to be allstars, come on...there is a thing called being a good supporter and a blind supporter a good supporter is when you see changes need to be done, out of your anxiety, you voice out your opinion to fix it..whether positive or negative you speak it out hoping somebody on the team can hear what you say a blind supporter is to give out some funny compliments trying to defend somebody who majority of the population would have fired him long ago (or never would hire him) while you pointing to those people and say they are not real fans and have low basketball IQ
I don't know why, but a lot of Raptor fans are praising this draft.. i believe this year is a weak draft compared to the years before. And you people have patience.. Look @ the Bulls and how long they waited and now they got a good team or.. playoff team..
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting a13x:</div><div class="quote_post">Do yourself a favor and actually read what people say, I'm pretty sure you'll see more than 2 criticisms. Don't waste everyone's time and act like they don't exist. Main point is everything we have done that is "rebuilding" for the future is pretty similar formula to other teams that have sucked forever and never dragged themselves out of the basement. So tell me why it's going to work.</div> Actually, I'm quite...adept at reading, but what you wrote is garbage. There are faults in babs, however the good outweighs the bad, imo. Right now, the only things you guys have brought to my attention is 'Yell and Hoffa. The rest of what you said is complete garbage. I told you why, because we have made much better picks then those teams that "sucked forever and never dragged themselves out of the basement." Already charlie is playing great, Sow is dominating in the d league, Calderon is playing great, Graham isn't yet, but I expect him to get his groove on soon, Bosh is averaging 20 and 10, we have Roko being a stud overseas. Our future is brilliant. And just because a player isn't doing so great in their first seasos, doesn't mean squat. Look at how many players average 2 pgg in their first season, and then turn out to be the likes of Arenas and Shard. Dunksworth Again, I'm just going to refer you to my Rashard example. And just because Shard was projected in late first/second, and Graham first, doesn't mean anything. Just because a player struggles, doesn't mean he can't turn out to be a good player. On his defense knock, I haven't noticed it, I thought he was doing a fine job in contesting shots. hoyhoydsahflasdifhasdl guy: There is a thing being called as a bandwagoner, and a fan. Which one are you? I'm not a blind supporter, I just realise how much potential we have. And people like you, are only concerned about the Vince Carters, and the Kobe Bryants. I don't expect them to turn out to be all-stars, actually I think the only one we will have is Rudy Gay, if we continue doing bad this season, and Bosh, and maybe, just maybe Villy. The rest will mature into amazing role players. The majority of the population believe, and want to do many things, that does not make them right. Anyone who abandons ship as soon as it springs a leak, is not a fan. They do have a low basketball IQ, because they are the typical fan, who can't think about the future. They want a big name right now, and they want to win right now. Anyone who thinks like that, has no basketball IQ what so ever, and should go back to hockey. This draft wasn't as good as it has been, but considering with what we got out of it, Babs did a brilliant job out of it.
Ok so the points about other teams rebuilding faster than us with less money available and Frye being a great player we missed in the draft who fills a need ? you can just ignore those .. that's cool. You make the assumption that practically every draft pick we have is going to be a legit starter and then talk about Rudy Gray for next year when even if we have the worst record in the league there's still only a 25% chance of getting the #1 pick. First you say a player is playing great. Then, when someone tells you otherwise you say it doesn't mean squat because it's their first year. Everything you claim in based on uncertainties in the future. 34 Michael Olowokandi C 42 Elton Brand PF 50 Corey Maggette SF 52 Eric Piatkowski SG 5 Jeff McInnis PG 45 Sean Rooks C 7 Lamar Odom PF 21 Darius Miles SF 3 Quentin Richardson SG 11 Earl Boykins PG Here is a sample of the clippers roster from 2001-2002. It had a lot of tallent on it and couldn't manage to win. I don't understand based on what we have today why you think our future is such a foredawn conclusion. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post"> PG- Calderone SG- Ukic SF- Villanueva or Graham PF- Bosh C- Someone we can throw 5 million dollars to that can rebound That line up is fine and all, but we're going to be a lot better then that, considering all the young kids we have, and will get it. </div> 1/2 the guys you mention could end up being good NBA players but not end up taking us anywhere. Mo Pete and Mike James are good players ? but they aren't exactly guiding us to the playoffs. At some point you probably could have made the argument that any promising rookie coming into the NBA was going to start and make an impact.
Frye is a great player, however I think villy is going to be better, he is much more versatile. Not to mention Frye has been criticised for being soft, and you can see that most of his points come from mid range jumpers. I think Villy is the better player. I am making this assumption, off of well supported evidence. I never said Graham was playing good, I said he was an excellent pick, because he is. Please go back and read my post. I really never said they would be starters, because for all we know we might end up signing Rashard Lewis, but I gave you that lineup for all the young guys. And from that list you can safely assume they will be good players. I'm not going to repeat myself on this account, because you can already add up the stats and see they are good players, currently. Never mind the future. I wouldn't mind it all that much if we dropped a few spots, hell then we could still take Shelden Williams. And just so you know, it's Rudy Gay, not Gray. Again, I never said Graham was playing great, I said I think he will be. Your argument is flawed, because you are imagining things. I'll only adress the young guys: I think it is clear that Kandi will never amount to anything, therefore he was a waste of a pick. Sort of like Hoffa, except Hoff still has time to prove himself, and he was picked 8th instead of 1st. Odom is a fine player. Darius proved to be somewhat of a cancer in his early years, it wasn't a bad pick because there really wasn't anyone coming after him, he just needed some time to mature as a player. He was only averaging like 8 or 9 points in his rookie season. Look at what Q is doing in NY, he's not so great. Now, look at our Nucleus: Chris Bosh Charlie Villanueva Joey Graham Jose Calderon Pape Sow Roko Ukic Rafeal Araujo Along with most likely atleast a top 5 lottery pick this year, and probably another one around 17th. So yes, our nucleus is a lot better then a team of young kids, who turned out to be under-achievers, like the Clips. So yes, I can easily say what I am saying. Calderon already is a solid NBA point guard, because he is the kind of PG which every team wants. All the GM's were praising Babs on his signing of Calderon. Villy is a solid player, just look at the stats. I don't know for sure how Ukic is doing, however from what I hear, he's doing great. And since you people hold projections in such high regard, Ukic was supposed to go in the first. We all know what Bosh is doing. As for Graham, again, he needs to start playing better. However, I think he'll start playing better soon. We left out a lot of our other young players on that starting list, not to mention our lottery pick this draft, and the one we get from denver. All in all, our situation is much better then the Clips was.
^I also would like to mention that the Clippers lineup of 2001-2002 were mailnly a group of selfish players that worried about their own statistics rather than winning as a group. QRich, Miles, McInnis and even Maggette to a point are all talented players but unselfish they are not. Even their starting point guard (McInnis) was known for his scoring prowess rather than his ability to pass the ball. The Raptors nucleus is made up of very unselfish players in Villanueva, Graham, Calderone and even Bosh. Having people who are willing to give up scoring the bucket in return for a win will have much more success than that Clippers squad. And think about this: If that Clippers squad was given a chance to develope with each other rather than be broken apart the next year would they be a successful team? Also if injuries did not ruin their 2001-2002 season would they have done better? I would answer yes to both questions.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dunksworth:</div><div class="quote_post">You're ignoring a key point about our ladyfriend. Sure, history and location may matter a little bit to her, but she's one very shallow individual. If you can provide her with the goods then that's all that truely matters. And trust me, we can provide the goods. We got the $$$ (our large market) and we can lavish her with attention (our large pesky media provides a ton of attention)...... She's just a money hungry attention whore, so there's no reason for her to stray when she's got mr.right staring right at her.....</div> your reply is done under a false assumption: u assume she's got a purpose. this is common error in our wider examination of contemporary society- we assume all are rational actors. she isn't a rational actor and we aren't either cause we're drowning in her. if purpose was economic stability, we (toronto) offer that but life (like the nba) lives for romance.
babs moves obviously arent popular moves, but i see the method to his madness. i still think we need to add that perimeter player that can create his own shot...score from anywhere on the floor...someone like vince lol
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">^Both of you seriously need to get a REAL girlfriend. </div> psssshhh, who needs a real girlfriend when I got the Raptors to keep me warm at night..... And at least my Raps don't nag me all day long, am I right fellas??? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">your reply is done under a false assumption: u assume she's got a purpose. this is common error in our wider examination of contemporary society- we assume all are rational actors. she isn't a rational actor and we aren't either cause we're drowning in her. if purpose was economic stability, we (toronto) offer that but life (like the nba) lives for romance.</div> Oh but she is a rational individual. Shallow yes, but rational none the less. We may not be rational b/c we're blindly in love, but she's completely different from us in the sense that she was never in love to begin with. So you must be mistaken if you thought she was in this relationship for love and romance. She's a gold digger plain and simple, and all that matters to her is the bottom line (riches and attention). Why else would she favour a Mr. New York as opposed to a Mr. Vermont?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rafy:</div><div class="quote_post"> Dunksworth Again, I'm just going to refer you to my Rashard example. And just because Shard was projected in late first/second, and Graham first, doesn't mean anything. Just because a player struggles, doesn't mean he can't turn out to be a good player. On his defense knock, I haven't noticed it, I thought he was doing a fine job in contesting shots.</div> Yah, just because someone struggles doesn't mean he can't turn out to be a good player, but I was referring to you stating that Graham was an excellent pick considering the circumstances. Judging from his performance so far in the season, there's nothing that would justify saying something like that..... especially considering the fact that he was picked ahead of someone like Granger, a guys who the majority felt was the better prospect during the draft and has shown that when given the minutes, he can produce at the nba level. And about Graham's defense, if you pay attention, you'll notice that he usually struggles to stay in front of his man. He has the strength, but he lacks the lateral quicks to be the kind of lockdown defender of the Artest/Bowen mold. But again, I won't say he's hopeless though..... it's only been a few games into his rookie season and he's probably having difficulties making the transition from PF in college to SF in the nba..... but I still would layoff on saying that he is was an excellent pick.
[quote name='dunksworth']psssshhh, who needs a real girlfriend when I got the Raptors to keep me warm at night..... And at least my Raps don't nag me all day long, am I right fellas???<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> i'm with courtvision on this one, sweaty black dudes don't do it for me on a saturday night.
