<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is what happens when you rely too heavily on stats. You don't appreciate the game, just the numbers.</div> Uh huh. You have no problem looking at numbers when they support your guy. Please. Bonzi's play has been dissapointing, to put it mildly. He hasn't been healthy, and he hasn't been in shape. We've actually lost the majority of the games he's played in. And the point differential is pretty much zero while he's been on the court. So don't give the line, "Oh, well his numbers don't reflect how much he's really helping the team." Neither does the win/loss record. As he gets more playing time, I'm hoping he gets his rhythm back and actually contributes in a significant way. So far, he's a had a few nice stretches, but unless you're a blind fanboy it's obvious that midway through the season this acquisition has been a bust. <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I can remember all those plays and ALL but two of those were the result of Bonzi in the post. We scored 9 straight buckets from Bonzi's back bein to the basket. Did you watch the game? Or just skim thru the stat sheet?</div> Yes, I watched the game. You mean 3 buckets, of course. And if you remember all those plays so well, why did you say the following: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">t's funny in the 2nd half, he's carried the offense pretty well as expected. With Tmac out, the Rockets INCREASED the lead with Bonzi down low. He got layup, assisted on a 4pt play, and a 3 by Rafer. Bonzi can CARRY the offense for stretches. End of discussion</div> He didn't get an assist in that stretch. Perhaps you meant "assisted" in a nebulous, "he caused it by being on the court" way. Anyways, I'll go through the fourth quarter in more detail and take note of all the plays in which he got touches and how often we were successful on those plays. Edit: I looked at the beginning of the fourth again. Unfortunately, ESPN's replay skipped ahead a few minutes in between (due to time constraints) so I missed some of it. I observed three post ups/ISOs with Bonzi. First one, Ginobili drew an offensive foul. Second, he scores on Ginobili on a nice baseline move. Third, he drew a double, passed out to Rafer, who passed to Head, who passed to Battier in the corner for the three. You're right, he and Battier should get credit for that. Perhaps someone more observant than me the first time can recount what exactly happened on the play when Rafer hit the three. After that play, his contributions were two turnovers (each followed by a San Antonio score). Actually, San Antonio scored after all three of his turnovers in the quarter, so to suggest those aren't a big deal is just foolish.
I remember Chuck Hayes had it, bobbled it around, then got double teamed by I think Tim Duncan and Robert Horry or something like that. However, he took one or two dribbles, spun around and threw a bullet to Rafer Alston out on the perimeter. Then Alston subsequently took a ridiculously long three pointer that actually went in.
Bonzi actually provides hope off the bench. He makes us a legitamate threat every game. If you think about it, even inconsistent players provide danger becuase look at Kobe Bryant. I am NOT saying hes inconsistent, but there is always the possibility of him dropping 40+ pts on you. Look at Raja Bell for example. He can get hot at any time and drop 18-20+ pts on you. Bonzi can do that for us. In games that he does really well, no one complains. Games where he doesnt fill the stat sheet, everyone says lets trade him. The fact of the matter is...we are winning so why stir the pot?
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Uh huh. You have no problem looking at numbers when they support your guy. Please. </div> But ur 100% stats. U rarely make an key observation of anything pertaining to the actual game. So if Bonzi gets 4pts and 4rebs, you automatically jump to the conclusion he's been a "disappointment". When ppl who actually watch the game closley know that's not the case. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Bonzi's play has been dissapointing, to put it mildly. He hasn't been healthy, and he hasn't been in shape. We've actually lost the majority of the games he's played in. And the point differential is pretty much zero while he's been on the court. So don't give the line, "Oh, well his numbers don't reflect how much he's really helping the team." Neither does the win/loss record. As he gets more playing time, I'm hoping he gets his rhythm back and actually contributes in a significant way. So far, he's a had a few nice stretches, but unless you're a blind fanboy it's obvious that midway through the season this acquisition has been a bust.</div> Bonzi has only been a disappointment to YOU and others who over analyze box scores. Stats do matter, but shouldn't be the final indicator of a player that hasn't even played consistent minutes. I could understand if Bonzi was gettin significant minutes from the coach, and finishing games. But he's been used sparingly and doesn't even get that many touches on offense. You can't be a "bust" unless you've actually had a chance to prove yourself. I don't blame Bonzi, I blame JVG for that. There aren't many options on offense outside of the usual Tmac high pick N' roll, Tmac screen, or Tmac fadeaway. The offense is slow and the margin of error for a offensive player is very thin. When Tmac goes out we don't run any plays. Just pick n' roll everytime down court. So don't act like Bonzi gets his touches and screws up. We should be givin him the ball on the post everytime he steps on the court. That's where he's at his best............. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I watched the game. You mean 3 buckets, of course. And if you remember all those plays so well, why did you say the following: He didn't get an assist in that stretch. Perhaps you meant "assisted" in a nebulous, "he caused it by being on the court" way. Anyways, I'll go through the fourth quarter in more detail and take note of all the plays in which he got touches and how often we were successful on those plays.</div> That's what I meant. The points we scored were the result of Bonzi on the block. That's the benefit of having him down there. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I looked at the beginning of the fourth again. Unfortunately, ESPN's replay skipped ahead a few minutes in between (due to time constraints) so I missed some of it. I observed three post ups/ISOs with Bonzi. First one, Ginobili drew an offensive foul. Second, he scores on Ginobili on a nice baseline move. Third, he drew a double, passed out to Rafer, who passed to Head, who passed to Battier in the corner for the three. You're right, he and Battier should get credit for that. Perhaps someone more observant than me the first time can recount what exactly happened on the play when Rafer hit the three. After that play, his contributions were two turnovers (each followed by a San Antonio score). Actually, San Antonio scored after all three of his turnovers in the quarter, so to suggest those aren't a big deal is just foolish.</div> I already acknowledged his turnovers, Tmac actually had 6. Bonzi isn't perfect. But my point is he CAN help us when he gets the ball on the block. I've been sayin it all season long. Bonzi in the post changes our offense tremendously. Just make sure he gets the ball down there... NOTE: The ESPN commentator mentioned how Bonzi & JVG's relationship is average. Said Bonzi had to make an effort to speak to JVG because if not JVG wouldn't even acknowledge him That's EXACTLY what I've been sayin about the JVG, but yet you guys act like I'm makin crap up. JVG puts his silly little grudges over winning sometimes. Would Phil Jackson do that?
<div class="quote_poster">TmacGarnett Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Bonzi actually provides hope off the bench. He makes us a legitamate threat every game. If you think about it, even inconsistent players provide danger becuase look at Kobe Bryant. I am NOT saying hes inconsistent, but there is always the possibility of him dropping 40+ pts on you. Look at Raja Bell for example. He can get hot at any time and drop 18-20+ pts on you. Bonzi can do that for us. In games that he does really well, no one complains. Games where he doesnt fill the stat sheet, everyone says lets trade him. The fact of the matter is...we are winning so why stir the pot?</div> Exactly! I agree.....Why stir the pot? He's our only bench player who can create and draw double teams. It seems if he doesn't score double figures, they crucify him lol.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> NOTE: The ESPN commentator mentioned how Bonzi & JVG's relationship is average. Said Bonzi had to make an effort to speak to JVG because if not JVG wouldn't even acknowledge him That's EXACTLY what I've been sayin about the JVG, but yet you guys act like I'm makin crap up. JVG puts his silly little grudges over winning sometimes. Would Phil Jackson do that?</div> I remember hearing that, but forgot who said it. If it was walton saying it...I wouldnt take that quote too seriously. He makes up a lot of his "facts". Sometimes commentators add things in (or exagerate) to add a bit of drama. Btw, JVG runs a no nonsense style. Bonzi, in his offseason and the beginning of the season..well...didnt exactly have the right attitude. I remember his "I didnt come here to run marathon's attitude", and quite frankly, thats not the best way to run things. Respect works both ways. I don't know why you like to compare coaches. Each coach has their own style. Its incredibly silly to compare something like that. If you want to compare coaches, why not goto the other extreme. Should JVG be more like Bob Knight? Before you go and say the NCAA is nothing like the NBA, my point was that each coach has their philosophy on how to run the team. As much as you hate JVG, he is a winning coach. As for the Bonzi debate, I will hold my judgement about him (as to whether he was a bust or not) till the end of the season. But, in that spurs game, he did not play all that well. He hasnt played all that well in his previous games (except a couple). As much as you want to blame JVG, how well do you think Bonzi would play if he had Yao Ming's work ethic? Last year, even after the injury, Yao played incredibly because he was consistently trying to improve himself (he would catch tennisballs with one hand and shoot it to improve his catching ability). Bonzi, did little in the offseason to condition himself. JVG isnt responsible for Bonzi not being in shape to begin with.
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But ur 100% stats. U rarely make an key observation of anything pertaining to the actual game.</div> This is moronic. Points, turnovers, efficiency -- these things don't pertain to the actual game? You're arguing that Bonzi was effective because he's responsible for 9 points. That's a stat too, you know. Anything observable/measurable can be a statistic. You're problem is you don't like acknowledge observations/measurements that go against your position. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So if Bonzi gets 4pts and 4rebs, you automatically jump to the conclusion he's been a "disappointment". When ppl who actually watch the game closley know that's not the case. </div> Bonzi's problem isn't the points and rebounds. It's the FG% and turnovers. Yes, if a guy shoots less than 40%, doesn't give you threes, and he turns it over a ton -- that's going to hurt your team. They aren't just numbers that don't have any relation to winning. Be serious. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bonzi has only been a disappointment to YOU and others who over analyze box scores. Stats do matter, but shouldn't be the final indicator of a player that hasn't even played consistent minutes. I could understand if Bonzi was gettin significant minutes from the coach, and finishing games. But he's been used sparingly and doesn't even get that many touches on offense. You can't be a "bust" unless you've actually had a chance to prove yourself. I don't blame Bonzi, I blame JVG for that. There aren't many options on offense outside of the usual Tmac high pick N' roll, Tmac screen, or Tmac fadeaway. The offense is slow and the margin of error for a offensive player is very thin. When Tmac goes out we don't run any plays. Just pick n' roll everytime down court. So don't act like Bonzi gets his touches and screws up. We should be givin him the ball on the post everytime he steps on the court. That's where he's at his best.............</div> Predictable. Blame poor performance from your guy on the coach. He isn't being used correctly! He himself said he appreciates the coach running plays for him while he's on the court. In fact, his usage rate (which measures how many possessions he uses up via FGA, FTA, and turnovers per minute) is actually higher this year than last year! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I already acknowledged his turnovers, Tmac actually had 6. Bonzi isn't perfect. But my point is he CAN help us when he gets the ball on the block. I've been sayin it all season long. Bonzi in the post changes our offense tremendously. Just make sure he gets the ball down there...</div> I agree; he "can" help us. As in, potentially, he could be a significant help to our offense. So far this season, he really hasn't been. I mean, he's had a few nice stretches, but he's had far more terrible stretches. That's the reality, but you got your blinders on so you won't acknowledge it. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post"> Exactly! I agree.....Why stir the pot? He's our only bench player who can create and draw double teams. It seems if he doesn't score double figures, they crucify him lol.</div> Quit distorting. It's the turnovers. And who's crucifying him? You build up him like he's the next Charles Barkley, of course people are going to disagree with that.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What a game by Tmac. He was doing up Bowen like crazy. So much for Bowen's defense.</div> Notice T-Mac only attempted two 3-pointers. He was killing them with his midrange game. The Spurs defense is designed to limit 3-pointers and limit points in the paint. Generally, that's an effective strategy. But McGrady happens to excel at the in-between game.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Notice T-Mac only attempted two 3-pointers. He was killing them with his midrange game. The Spurs defense is designed to limit 3-pointers and limit points in the paint. Generally, that's an effective strategy. But McGrady happens to excel at the in-between game.</div> Man he was playing like Kobe out there. He was fading away from 15-17 feet and hitting them on Bruce Bowen. He got fouled on a three-pointer which almost went in. Man he was shooting lights out. Tmac needs to keep on playing this way.
<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What a game by Tmac. He was doing up Bowen like crazy. So much for Bowen's defense.</div> I think bowen has always had trouble against Tmac.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Notice T-Mac only attempted two 3-pointers. He was killing them with his midrange game. The Spurs defense is designed to limit 3-pointers and limit points in the paint. Generally, that's an effective strategy. But McGrady happens to excel at the in-between game.</div> Thats a very good observation, I don't like Tracy jacking up threes left and right. He can get these midrange shots at will and as we saw can draw fouls too.
<div class="quote_poster">Blurr#7 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Thats a very good observation, I don't like Tracy jacking up threes left and right. He can get these midrange shots at will and as we saw can draw fouls too.</div> I;m not sure if these stats are currect...got them from espn...but I remember them saying that Tmac was shooting 47% from 2 point range while only 31% from 3 point.
<div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I;m not sure if these stats are currect...got them from espn...but I remember them saying that Tmac was shooting 47% from 2 point range while only 31% from 3 point.</div> FG% 3p% FT% .433 .317 .681 These are his year to date %, Tracy's never been a good three point shooter, I've always wanted him to play like he did agaisnt SA, driving to the rack and midrange 12 to 15ft jumpers.
<div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">This is moronic. Points, turnovers, efficiency -- these things don't pertain to the actual game? You're arguing that Bonzi was effective because he's responsible for 9 points. That's a stat too, you know. Anything observable/measurable can be a statistic. You're problem is you don't like acknowledge observations/measurements that go against your position.</div> But from ur so-called "stats" he's been a disappointment. I'd have to disagree. I think he's been comin along just fine, slowly improving. Judging from how well the offense flow'd with Bonzi on the block, he changed the whole game. That doesn't show up in the box score, but it tells me that he was effective in that stretch. Bottom line, he's been far from a disappointment. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Bonzi's problem isn't the points and rebounds. It's the FG% and turnovers. Yes, if a guy shoots less than 40%, doesn't give you threes, and he turns it over a ton -- that's going to hurt your team. They aren't just numbers that don't have any relation to winning. Be serious.</div> Ur overreacting once again. His turnovers will eventually go down once he gets back in rythm. It's part of him playin more minutes. His fg% will also pick up when the team learns his sweet spots. I'm not comfortable with him being a spot up shooter. If we can get him in the post his percentages will sky rocket. But to say he's "hurting the team" is an extreme exaggeration. He hasn't played enuff minutes for him to be a problem. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Predictable. Blame poor performance from your guy on the coach. He isn't being used correctly! He himself said he appreciates the coach running plays for him while he's on the court. In fact, his usage rate (which measures how many possessions he uses up via FGA, FTA, and turnovers per minute) is actually higher this year than last year!</div> My opinion on JVG's offense is echoed by many. No flow, no movement, no plays, just Tmac doing everything. The reality is if Tmac doesn't become superman we're gonna lose. I'd like to see Bonzi get the ball on the block 65% of the time when he's on the court. When Tmac comes in, they can share it 50/50. There was an article this morning in the Houston chronicle about Tmac doing everything. We gotta learn how to incorporate more options on offense. I'm not the only one who's been quite satisfied with Bonzi. I don't see his play as "poor" at all. He's been doin his job, outside of a few turnovers. I don't know why he doesn't finish games. With Rafer jackin up 3's in the 4th quarter, maybe we can go in a different direction. <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree; he "can" help us. As in, potentially, he could be a significant help to our offense. So far this season, he really hasn't been. I mean, he's had a few nice stretches, but he's had far more terrible stretches. That's the reality, but you got your blinders on so you won't acknowledge it.</div> He's had his turnovers, but I expected him to be a little rough. Just aslong as he keeps doin his job, he'll slowly improve. Ur being extremley too negative
<div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He's had his turnovers, but I expected him to be a little rough. Just aslong as he keeps doin his job, he'll slowly improve. Ur being extremley too negative</div> I think we can agree it's been a struggle so far, and he hasn't played up to his potential yet. I hope you're right that he'll become a big time contributor for us down the stretch.
<div class="quote_poster">AznxBaller Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I remember Chuck Hayes had it, bobbled it around, then got double teamed by I think Tim Duncan and Robert Horry or something like that. However, he took one or two dribbles, spun around and threw a bullet to Rafer Alston out on the perimeter. Then Alston subsequently took a ridiculously long three pointer that actually went in.</div> Yep, I just rewatched that play. Bonzi had it, threw it down to Chuck who got trapped under the basket. The Spurs defended it pretty well, but Chuck made a heads up pass to Rafer at the top of the key who had to shoot since we were up against the shot block. He hit a contested 25-footer. Not sure in what sense Bonzi was responsible for that bucket. The Spurs defense wasn't sagging towards him or anything.
Btw, did anyone think that lineup was peculiar? We had Hayes, Deke, Head, Alston, and Wells on the floor at the same time.
