GAME THREAD: Warriors @ Hawks 4:00pm 1/31/2007

<div class="quote_poster">Carter Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How do we get killed by the Lebron less Cavs and the Hawks? </div>

Now don't start this up again.

 

It was just a dream right?

 

<div class="quote_poster">custodianrules2 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Now don't start this up again. </div>

But its really heartbreaking seeing your team get killed by a horrible team and a team without their superstar. We need to get JRich and quick. We are screwing ourselves out of the playoffs.

 

I hate to say it, but the playoffs really are a dream now, folks. Unless GS goes on a serious HOT streak to close out the season, they are apporaching the all-star break in a plane that has lost both engines and is in a downward spiral ready to crash and burn.... and that's not good.

Fffbbhhhhhttttttthhhttt <-- that's about the sound of it. Blah


edit: Actually, wow -- the 7th and 8th seeds are suprisingly open right now. Minnesota, Denver, Clippers, and Warriors are all basically sucking right now and the Warriors are 2.5 games out of the 8th seed lol.

Perfect time to go on a WINNING streak. Oh yeah I can feel it...........

 

I hope so, AO. Nothing worse than getting the last spot in the lotto as opposed to 8th or 11th pick.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Carter Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">How do we get killed by the Lebron less Cavs and the Hawks? </div>

The Cavs are one of the top rebounding teams in the NBA even without LeBron. They just punished us by getting the ball when we missed. That's how you beat the new Warriors.

 

What i don't get is why there are no in-game moves made.

For example we were killing them in the paint.... in the half court our passes were sizzling, people were cutting, the ball was moving, and we were turning made shots and defensive rebounds into fast break opportunities as well.... running.... our defensive effort though not stellar..... we did give up a few un challenged lay ups.... but they were on fire shooting from the perimeter... so we were matching them.... and i was sure they would cool off... if we had only stuck with the plan


then barnes and ellis entered the game..... and suddenly we lost focus and never regained it.... we went from moving the ball to standing around the perimeter with no one cutting.... just stagnant... and the defensive end we were worse.... no effort.... the zone looked pathetic.... steve on the broadcast used it as an example of how not to play the zone... of course those were when Barnes made no effort closing on shooters.

why didnt we go to Man.. Go bigger? something.... if ain't working at least try and fix it Nellie ..... If barnes dont wanna hustle and close on defense i am sure AZ will make an effort...get him in there

I am not laying these losses all at Barnes feet.... but it was his pathetic defense was what got us in a hole that we never made much effort to climb out of.

 

<div class="quote_poster">AnimeFANatic Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Pau Gasol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</div>

Would trading Andris Biedrins, Monta Ellis, filler and maybe a pick get us Pau Gasol?

Then we got Baron, JRich, AL and Pau Gasol to build with. Do you go with that?

 

<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">What i don't get is why there are no in-game moves made.

For example we were killing them in the paint.... in the half court our passes were sizzling, people were cutting, the ball was moving, and we were turning made shots and defensive rebounds into fast break opportunities as well.... running.... our defensive effort though not stellar..... we did give up a few un challenged lay ups.... but they were on fire shooting from the perimeter... so we were matching them.... and i was sure they would cool off... if we had only stuck with the plan


then barnes and ellis entered the game..... and suddenly we lost focus and never regained it.... we went from moving the ball to standing around the perimeter with no one cutting.... just stagnant... and the defensive end we were worse.... no effort.... the zone looked pathetic.... steve on the broadcast used it as an example of how not to play the zone... of course those were when Barnes made no effort closing on shooters.

why didnt we go to Man.. Go bigger? something.... if ain't working at least try and fix it Nellie ..... If barnes dont wanna hustle and close on defense i am sure AZ will make an effort...get him in there

I am not laying these losses all at Barnes feet.... but it was his pathetic defense was what got us in a hole that we never made much effort to climb out of.</div>


That's not exactly the way I saw it. Our zone wasn't very effective at all. The Hawks were getting easy shots from outside and eventually they started making them while we cooled off and couldn't keep up. Before Barnes, it was MP stinking up the place. Neither had a very good game. Another guy who didn't have a good game was Jaxs. He scored, but he wasn't playing much D.

Early on AB was scoring from inside. I have no idea why Baron and the Warriors stopped going to him and nothing in the second half. Instead, they kept getting the ball to outside shooters who couldn't hit.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Carter Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But its really heartbreaking seeing your team get killed by a horrible team and a team without their superstar. We need to get JRich and quick. We are screwing ourselves out of the playoffs.</div>

But you already know why we lost. We don't rebound, we don't play all-around defense, we don't execute plays, and we don't do much in the halfcourt or shooting the ball at the foul line or from other areas of the floor that's not the 3-point line. There's a thing called smart, high %, disciplined ball and we're not playing it. We just got more athletic, but we stayed the same basically. We even lost a simple thing like defensive rebounding and flop calls. It was a wash trade unless the primary goal was to decrease salary. In that case that was the best option to try and remove a mistake. But there's a lot of catching up to do now.

That's why I just couldn't stand the hype. I didn't see one anything where we gained some big players back. We lost an overpaid, but decent rebounder and scorer, and we lost a good prospect who could play a prototypical power forward position (one that Nelson never really liked to begin with). In return we got a swingman, a combo forward more suited for the SF position despite his size, and some rook and a 30 year old combo guard. I know guys want some ray of hope, so that's why I can't really shoot them down and tell them I told them so. Because we all want to believe this roster can do great things at some point in time and go on huge win streaks. But I just don't see the makeup of a team that can carry on and compete against the majority of teams out there, especially within our own conference.

And it's not just Jrich. We can still play without Jrich or with him, it doesn't matter. It don't help when we can't score inside the painted area in the halfcourt, or we can't defend or take care of the ball or shoot free throws or take other shots other than the three point jack. You guys gotta pay attention to what the players' roles are and realize that together, it's an incomplete team still. 5 guys out there gotta have roles that outproduce the other team. There are a lot of guys in that five that aren't contributing towards scoring and defense to be more productive than the other team's five. Mainly it's the power forward and center positions where two big guys can outwork whatever we have. They go right down the middle or they collapse on somebody and it leaves one of the other team's shooters wide open to make any kind of move they want. Zone is total crap when we're a smallish team near the bucket and we are playing against shooters.

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's not exactly the way I saw it. Our zone wasn't very effective at all. The Hawks were getting easy shots from outside and eventually they started making them while we cooled off and couldn't keep up. Before Barnes, it was MP stinking up the place. Neither had a very good game. Another guy who didn't have a good game was Jaxs. He scored, but he wasn't playing much D.

Early on AB was scoring from inside. I have no idea why Baron and the Warriors stopped going to him and nothing in the second half. Instead, they kept getting the ball to outside shooters who couldn't hit.</div>

No. That isnt what i was saying. I agree our zone was ineffective and useless. What i was saying was that we were moving the ball well and getting buckets in the paint in the 1st quarter and Atl was hot bombing from the outside.

In other words we were getting success in the paint and they were hitting outside J's.... in the long run i figured they would cool off and we would prevail.... but we didnt continue to move the ball and get it into the paint and reverted to our bombs away perimeter game. Our defensive effort never altered, pathetic the whole game.

But the catalyst to when things fell apart was when BArnes entered the game and they hit 3 consecutive 3's from his corner while he made little to no effort to challenge their shots. After that little run the Warriors no longer were moving the ball, getting the ball out and fast breaking or anything that resembled our 1st quarter effort. They just lost focus.

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Would trading Andris Biedrins, Monta Ellis, filler and maybe a pick get us Pau Gasol?

Then we got Baron, JRich, AL and Pau Gasol to build with. Do you go with that?</div>

Now that would be a panic move. Better to tank it than mortgage the future IMO.

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Would trading Andris Biedrins, Monta Ellis, filler and maybe a pick get us Pau Gasol?

Then we got Baron, JRich, AL and Pau Gasol to build with. Do you go with that?</div>I'd say it definitely does get you Pau Gasol. However, I think that's a terrible trade for the Warriors. It's not much of a stretch to imagine Andris evolving into a premiere big man in the next couple of years, and if you give him up to get Gasol, what's the point? Then you still have one 7-footer in the middle trying to do everything instead of having two legit big men. I'd like to see what Al Harrington would be like at small forward. I think he's do OK in Nellie's system because he's athletic and can run like a small forward.

So yeah, you'd probably have to give up Monta to get Gasol, but no way do I give up both him and Andris. To me, Andris is a can't miss, but while I love Monta, I still have a number of doubts about him, and he doesn't really fill the Warriors most burning needs at the moment. I think Monta plus some other pieces (Pietrus, Barnes, Rooney, whoever, maybe a draft pick) might be enough to get it done. The lineup I want to see is:

Gasol
Biedrins
Harrington
JRich
Baron

That's one hell of a starting 5 if you ask me, definitely a deep playoff threat. You've got scorers all over the place, size and great hands up front, many inside-outside possibilities, penetrators, rebounding, good passers, and athletes in every position. Sub-par defensively, but maybe enough with all the scoring they could do. Bench might be a little thin but SJax, Powell, etc. are not crap.

EDIT: One thing I do notice is that the starting 5 I gave would have a combined FT% this year of 69%. Yuck. Then again, most of them are all Warriors already anyway.

 

<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No. That isnt what i was saying. I agree our zone was ineffective and useless. What i was saying was that we were moving the ball well and getting buckets in the paint in the 1st quarter and Atl was hot bombing from the outside.

In other words we were getting success in the paint and they were hitting outside J's.... in the long run i figured they would cool off and we would prevail.... but we didnt continue to move the ball and get it into the paint and reverted to our bombs away perimeter game. Our defensive effort never altered, pathetic the whole game.</div>

That's what I was trying to tell you. It wasn't ATLs shooting that was killing us. It was the lack of D. We were shooting close to 60% from the field in the 1Q but instead of a commanding lead, ATL was hanging around and staying close. Joe Johnson was missing his shots, but you just knew he'd start hitting them as he continued to fire away. We have Pietrus and Jackson who are supposed to be our best perimeter defenders and they were doing squat. In fact ATL held a one point lead after the 1Q. That's almost unbelieveable.

Second, we came out well to start the game going inside to Biedrins and that was working. But Baron stopped passing the ball to him in the 2Q and instead started launching 3s. That was stupid. Hawks catch fire in the 2Q and won the game right there as we could never recover.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But the catalyst to when things fell apart was when BArnes entered the game and they hit 3 consecutive 3's from his corner while he made little to no effort to challenge their shots. After that little run the Warriors no longer were moving the ball, getting the ball out and fast breaking or anything that resembled our 1st quarter effort. They just lost focus.</div>

I agree Barnes sucked. He didn't do squat either and was launching his own 3s, too. But to make him the scapegoat for causing the Warriors downfall is ridiculous. He's not even a starter and Nellie brought him in in order to try and grab some boards after Pietrus got into foul trouble. I'd put it on our Big 3 for lack of D and Pietrus' dumb play before we even get to that point.

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">That's not exactly the way I saw it. Our zone wasn't very effective at all. The Hawks were getting easy shots from outside and eventually they started making them while we cooled off and couldn't keep up. Before Barnes, it was MP stinking up the place. Neither had a very good game. Another guy who didn't have a good game was Jaxs. He scored, but he wasn't playing much D.

Early on AB was scoring from inside. I have no idea why Baron and the Warriors stopped going to him and nothing in the second half. Instead, they kept getting the ball to outside shooters who couldn't hit.</div>

I believe that Nelson needs to get away from the zone defense as well. The zone was fine when we had weak defenders on the perimeter like Dunleavy and even JRich when he was getting PT earlier in the season. I guess Pietrus and Jackson weren't playing that great last night, but I would believe that with Pietrus and Jackson on the perimeter there is not much reason to play zone a whole bunch, especially when the opponent is scoring all of their points on the perimeter.

The conflict I see with the recent trade is that Boom, Jax, and Twin are going to see themselves as the star players. I don't have a great problem with Harrington thinking this, but I really don't like the starting and pretty much full time PG thinking that he needs to carry the team by shooting a whole bunch or even to a slightly lower degree having Stephen Jackson thinking that way is going to be very condusive to getting players who were stepping up like Azubuike, Barnes, Pietrus, and even Biedrins in the game and flow offensively (which is a major loss if Jax, Baron, and Al aren't playing like all-stars). I want Baron to go back to how he was playing earlier in the season where he seemed to defer and have more confidence in some of his teammates. Baron has to come with the mindset that he is going to make Andris Biedrins who is doing a wonderful job scoring, a big time player and inside threat. This is especially the case when they are playing teams like the Nets without Kristic and the Hawks with Lorenzo Wright who is decent but probably inferior to Biedrins. Maybe it wasn't this type of play that lost this game. But I think the team would play better if this type of change happened. Baron says there is something wrong with the team's demeanor, smarts, and energy on the road. Nelson says there wasn't anything wrong with the team's energy and didn't expect the Hawks to make that many shots, I assume from the perimeter, which might have urged him to play zone for as long as he did.

Well I suppose January is done for this season. It was another bad January going 5-9. Hopefully they can start of February with some better basketball. February will be the most telling month of the season. The Warriors will face a bunch of similar middle of the road teams and below. If they stumble in this month, then there is going to be a lot of head scratching...

 

<div class="quote_poster">jason voorhees Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Second, we came out well to start the game going inside to Biedrins and that was working. But Baron stopped passing the ball to him in the 2Q and instead started launching 3s</div>Yeah, this happens a lot this year. I have no idea why they don't utilize Andris on offense more. He shoots one of the highest FG% in the league, is not prone to picking up offensive fouls, and seems to be pretty good about staying off the fould line (if you want to call that good, but in his case it is). I think he has shown he could easily be a 20 ppg scorer if he was an offensive focal point. I guess it really goes back to the even more general problem with the Warriors and coaching staff: they fail to recognize advantages and keep exploiting them until they stop working.

 

<div class="quote_poster">HiRez Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, this happens a lot this year. I have no idea why they don't utilize Andris on offense more. He shoots one of the highest FG% in the league, is not prone to picking up offensive fouls, and seems to be pretty good about staying off the fould line (if you want to call that good, but in his case it is). I think he has shown he could easily be a 20 ppg scorer if he was an offensive focal point. I guess it really goes back to the even more general problem with the Warriors and coaching staff: they fail to recognize advantages and keep exploiting them until they stop working.</div>

Wow 20 points per game would be great. That seems like ambitious dreams for Andris right now. But I guess I should not underestimate this young Lat, who is almost 21 years old. Of course I do agree with letting him get touches. To score 20 points per game though, you would need to be a great scorer like Chris Bosh, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal (I don't even think he even truely reaches 20 ppg), or maybe you have to be on a pitiful team like SAR when he could put up 20 ppg. I am not sure if Andris could be that type of player to take a bunch of shots vs. Duncan or Yao and be a top scorer that way, which you kind of have to be if you average 20 ppg. But I definitley think Andris should be used much more. He scored 30+ points vs. Denver, so he can definitley score some. I won't discount Andris' ability to really improve. The way he has improved offensively over the last season and two has been wonderful. His FT shooting improvement was very impressive as well.

BTW Andris is the league leader in FG%; though he did go 3-6 I believe last night, which is kind of an off night for him. I wouldn't say the Warriros should go to Andris as if he were a 20ppg player unless if he was facing the Nets again without Kristic, or some other teams with weak frontcourts. But I do agree that the team should emphasize getting him the ball. Baron needs to create some of that NVE/Dampier relationship. NVE is good playing with bigs because he has great experience playing with Shaq and I think some other bigs that I can't recall off the top of my head. I remember NVE was pretty important in getting Dampier that big contract he got the following season I believe. haha.

 

Hirez, you know that is the funny thing. I thought that was what Nellie built his reputation on, finding those mismatches or creating them then exploiting these advantages til they get stopped. I have rarely seen us do this all year.

 

<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Hirez, you know that is the funny thing. I thought that was what Nellie built his reputation on, finding those mismatches or creating them then exploiting these advantages til they get stopped. I have rarely seen us do this all year.</div>Yeah, I don't really understand it. The only thing I can think of is maybe they think it keeps the other team off-balance by throwing a variety of looks at them and confusing them. But I fundamentally disagree with that philosophy. If something is working, go back to it. If it stops working, THEN throw another scheme at them. If Andris is 3 for 3, for example, why not give him the ball again? Why have Baron jack up a low % 3-point shot instead? They pulled that crap with Ike a lot too. Or come to think of it, maybe it's all about Nellie's anti-big-man bias. I just don't know, but it's so frustrating to watch.

 

I don't want to talk about it.