<div class="quote_poster">nextlevelgame Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm always suspect of shot blockers in college translating into the NBA because of what happened with Kenyon. He was an absolute monster shot blocker in college, but it never translated into the NBA. I mean Kenyon is a decent shotblocker but never to the point where people were saying he could lead the league. End of the day Sean Williams does not impress me. I could've done with trading the pick.</div> Well that's not always the case though, usually shot blocking and rebounding are the things that translate (not a 1 to 1 ration, but a good shot blocker remains that) for big men as long as the guy doesn't have short arms, and the guy has good enough lateral quickness where he can rotate quickly enough. If the guy doesn't have those things, his block numbers might come from just sitting in the middle of a zone and being a tall guy and you can't do that in the NBA, and with short arms, you can't get to shots that you otherwise would've in college. Sean Williams has a 7'5 wingspan, has very good lateral quickness, and can jump. Kenyon got injured before coming to the NBA, and even his first season he only played 68 games. His first two seasons he averaged 1.7 BPG each in 33 and 34 MPG, and wasn't he playing SF/PF? His last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG in 29 MPG. Williams block numbers are: 5.0 BPG in 32.2 MPG with only 3.2 FPG, and he did it for 15 games. Before that he had 2.3 and 2.0 BPG in 17 MPG each. His shot blocking is not something that's going to go away by any means. He will be a shot blocker in the NBA, it's the other things that he'll need to get, improve his IQ, concentrate and improve defensive rebounding, and get bigger upper body wise so he can guard C's more effectively.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well that's not always the case though, usually shot blocking and rebounding are the things that translate (not a 1 to 1 ration, but a good shot blocker remains that) for big men as long as the guy doesn't have short arms, and the guy has good enough lateral quickness where he can rotate quickly enough. If the guy doesn't have those things, his block numbers might come from just sitting in the middle of a zone and being a tall guy and you can't do that in the NBA, and with short arms, you can't get to shots that you otherwise would've in college. </div> If the height isn't there, translation into the NBA is hard. Brian Cook averaged over 10 boards a game at Illinois, but I'd be pressed if he even can average 8 in the NBA given the minutes. Sometimes it shows, like for Milsap, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on the competition and who's facing. From what I've seen of Sean, most of his rebounding comes from just being more athletic and bigger, but that might not be the case in the NBA. Blocks as well. He has impressive, blocks, but none that really shows me shot blocking instincts like Oden does, or Mutumbo in college. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sean Williams has a 7'5 wingspan, has very good lateral quickness, and can jump. Kenyon got injured before coming to the NBA, and even his first season he only played 68 games. His first two seasons he averaged 1.7 BPG each in 33 and 34 MPG, and wasn't he playing SF/PF?</div> You can't really tell me that Kenyon's injury before the NBA really hurt him. Anyone watching him play his years with the Nets only shows how athletic he is. Even if he wasn't as athletic as he was supposed to be, he was still pretty damn athletic, had everything you said and still wasn't a game changing shot blocker. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">His last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG in 29 MPG. Williams block numbers are: 5.0 BPG in 32.2 MPG with only 3.2 FPG, and he did it for 15 games. </div> You can't really say that Sean could keep that pace up. For the first 15 games of the season, most of those games are write off before preseason. Just win-padding games against teams that probably belong in DII. If he had kept that up going through the ACC season, I'll give you that, but not when it's mostly preseason. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Before that he had 2.3 and 2.0 BPG in 17 MPG each. His shot blocking is not something that's going to go away by any means. He will be a shot blocker in the NBA, it's the other things that he'll need to get, improve his IQ, concentrate and improve defensive rebounding, and get bigger upper body wise so he can guard C's more effectively.</div> You act as if that is easy. People spend their lives improving IQ but don't show change. Steve Francis. Stromile Swift. Eddy Curry. Gaining basketball IQ is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball because it either clicks or it doesn't, and with Sean, I'm hardly sure he's ready to dedicate himself to basketball when he conciously threw away a final four-potential season for a recreational drug. As for defensive rebounding? Either a rebounder or not. Kenyon tried so hard to be a rebounder for our team and despite his efforts, he was only mediocre. He might have averaged 9, but most of the time Jason Kidd was our best rebounder. I'm sorry, but this kid's attitude has always been poor and I don't believe it will change. He's too up on himself to really keep it up.
<div class="quote_poster">Kidd Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well if he gets his head straight like Hassan and Laptop did, he looks to be a pretty solid pick. I did my reading.</div> When did Hot Sauce not have his head on straight? I like this pick but is Krstic even in your future plans anymore? Or is he pretty much a done deal to Indiana now?
This is a good pick. I'm looking forward to see if Sean Williams can stay out of trouble. If he develops properly and his game translates well to the NBA (which I think it will), the Nets will have themselves an amazing shot blocker. He can be the defensive/hustle big while Krstic is the scoring big man. I think they'll complement each other well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If the height isn't there, translation into the NBA is hard. Brian Cook averaged over 10 boards a game at Illinois, but I'd be pressed if he even can average 8 in the NBA given the minutes. Sometimes it shows, like for Milsap, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on the competition and who's facing. From what I've seen of Sean, most of his rebounding comes from just being more athletic and bigger, but that might not be the case in the NBA. Blocks as well. He has impressive, blocks, but none that really shows me shot blocking instincts like Oden does, or Mutumbo in college.</div> Briank Cook's career high MPG in the NBA is 19, so of course he's not going to average 10 rebounds a game or anything close to that. So far his career PER 40 RPG has been (9.1, 7.9, 7.1, and 8.4) with a total average of 7.9 rebounds PER 40 on his career, not too bad for a perimeter big man like him. In college, Cook averaged 6.2 RPG in 26 MPG for his career, and his best rebounding season was 7.6 RPG in 30 MPG before he came to the NBA. But I don't think I said Sean Williams was a good rebounder or would be one in the NBA, so I don't know what to say here. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't really tell me that Kenyon's injury before the NBA really hurt him. Anyone watching him play his years with the Nets only shows how athletic he is. Even if he wasn't as athletic as he was supposed to be, he was still pretty damn athletic, had everything you said and still wasn't a game changing shot blocker. </div> I think it did, and yes he wasn't a game changing shot blocker, but 1.7 BPG in 33 mins his first two seasons was pretty good. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't really say that Sean could keep that pace up. For the first 15 games of the season, most of those games are write off before preseason. Just win-padding games against teams that probably belong in DII. If he had kept that up going through the ACC season, I'll give you that, but not when it's mostly preseason.</div> That's why I added 15 games and didn't just put 5.0 BPG because that's a factor, and that's also why I posted his numbers for the other seasons, 2.0 and 2.3 BPG in 17 MPG, which is 4.8-5 BPG PER 40 mins. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You act as if that is easy. People spend their lives improving IQ but don't show change. Steve Francis. Stromile Swift. Eddy Curry. Gaining basketball IQ is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball because it either clicks or it doesn't, and with Sean, I'm hardly sure he's ready to dedicate himself to basketball when he conciously threw away a final four-potential season for a recreational drug. As for defensive rebounding? Either a rebounder or not. Kenyon tried so hard to be a rebounder for our team and despite his efforts, he was only mediocre. He might have averaged 9, but most of the time Jason Kidd was our best rebounder. I'm sorry, but this kid's attitude has always been poor and I don't believe it will change. He's too up on himself to really keep it up.</div> I act as if what is easy? I said his shot blocking will be there, but it's the other things that he'll have to improve. And by that I mean to become a player you can put on the court for 20+ minutes and be happy he's there. I didn't say it's the other things that he will definately improve and become the best defensive C in the league and DPOY or anything. I didn't say he doesn't have attitude problems either lol.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Briank Cook's career high MPG in the NBA is 19, so of course he's not going to average 10 rebounds a game or anything close to that. So far his career PER 40 RPG has been (9.1, 7.9, 7.1, and 8.4) with a total average of 7.9 rebounds PER 40 on his career, not too bad for a perimeter big man like him. In college, Cook averaged 6.2 RPG in 26 MPG for his career, and his best rebounding season was 7.6 RPG in 30 MPG before he came to the NBA. But I don't think I said Sean Williams was a good rebounder or would be one in the NBA, so I don't know what to say here.</div> Per 48 projections are worthless. Find Wang ZhiZhi's 40 minute projections. They're ridiculous. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think it did, and yes he wasn't a game changing shot blocker, but 1.7 BPG in 33 mins his first two seasons was pretty good. </div> No it's not and don't lie to yourself. Anything under 2 is not considered "pretty good." If you're telling me Kenyon wasn't an athletic player from '02 - '04 you're kidding yourself. I might give you '02 cause he did spend more time at the power forward position cause of KVH, but to pretend that that injury slowed him down when he obviously was still top 5 in athleticism or to think that 1.7 is pretty good is ridiculous. The top shot blockers in the league play 33 or less minutes and 1.7 would barely put you in the top 15 and there are guys like Diop, Darko, Tyrus Thomas that would get more blocks if they had the 10+ extra minutes that Kenyon got. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's why I added 15 games and didn't just put 5.0 BPG because that's a factor, and that's also why I posted his numbers for the other seasons, 2.0 and 2.3 BPG in 17 MPG, which is 4.8-5 BPG PER 40 mins. </div> When players start playing 40 mpg then I'll take those into consideration. Those projections don't consider fatigue, level of competition, or anything else. They're worthless stats really. And in college level of competition is very important to consider because the disparity is so great. And I'm not saying he was not a good shot blocker in college, I'm saying that I am skeptical about its transference into the NBA like Kenyon Martin. Jason Smith is another guy who's college shot blocking skills probably won't translate into the NBA. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I act as if what is easy? I said his shot blocking will be there, but it's the other things that he'll have to improve. And by that I mean to become a player you can put on the court for 20+ minutes and be happy he's there. I didn't say it's the other things that he will definately improve and become the best defensive C in the league and DPOY or anything. I didn't say he doesn't have attitude problems either lol.</div> You didn't say them, but you ignored the factors of them. You can't say "improve basketball IQ." Anyone who's played basketball long enough knows how hard that actually is. Even harder for a guy who seems to be a hard head like Sean. I mean it's like telling Steve Francis, "improve your basketball IQ and you'd be the best point guard in the league." Ofcourse you can say that, but few achieve it. I think Baron Davis would be the best PG in the league, and maybe one of the best all time, if he didn't chuck the ball so much, but to this day he still hasn't learned the difference between a good shot and bad shot. I don't know how long you've followed basketball, but I'm old enough to remember when Derrick Coleman came into the league. One of the most talented players I've ever seen, even moreso than Oden or Durant, but his drug problems, stubborness, and inability to be a real team player is what kept him from becoming great. And Sean isn't even half as talented as DC, but has the same problems. Derrick was able to get by his many years by his talent alone, but Sean doesn't have that ability and my gut is telling me that I should not trust this guy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Per 48 projections are worthless. Find Wang ZhiZhi's 40 minute projections. They're ridiculous</div> I'm not sure why you're acting like we're arguing with each other, or like you don't understand what I'm saying. Brian Cook was NOT much of a rebounder in college, and in the NBA isn't much of one either. He produced the same rate of rebounds in the NBA as he did in college when we take into account the RPG decrease that should happen. Those were not per 48 minute projections, no one plays that much, not many guys play 40 minutes either, but the point of it isn't to say this is how much he's going to give you, it's to say this is the rate of production he's giving you. No player playing 19 minutes in a game grabs an amount of rebounds that will impress you pure numbers wise (only a few like Reggie Evans or something). Shaq in 05-06 grabbed 9.2 RPG, but was he really 1 RPG worse than in 04-05 when he grabbed 10.4 RPG? No, he wasn't, but injuries forced him to play 4 less MPG, if you look at per 40 numbers, you see that his rebounding and even scoring production was at the same rate as the previous season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No it's not and don't lie to yourself. Anything under 2 is not considered "pretty good." If you're telling me Kenyon wasn't an athletic player from '02 - '04 you're kidding yourself. I might give you '02 cause he did spend more time at the power forward position cause of KVH, but to pretend that that injury slowed him down when he obviously was still top 5 in athleticism or to think that 1.7 is pretty good is ridiculous. The top shot blockers in the league play 33 or less minutes and 1.7 would barely put you in the top 15 and there are guys like Diop, Darko, Tyrus Thomas that would get more blocks if they had the 10+ extra minutes that Kenyon got. </div> I suppose I am lying to myself then. Kenyon Martin's last year in college, he averaged 3.5 BPG, then he broke his leg before the tournament, and before coming to the NBA. We never saw him play in college post broken leg, and I don't think he would've averaged 3.5 BPG post broken leg in college, that's just my opinion I guess. I don't think he would've averaged 3 BPG in the NBA either though. I'm not saying he wasn't athletic in New Jersey anymore either, he was still athletic. Fast, quick, could jump, but wasn't the athlete he was before that. Anyways, even with that, he was still able to translate his shot blocking to 1.7 BPG in 33 mins in the NBA. Now in comparing with Williams, Sean has been either as good or a better shot blocker in college than Martin was for his three seasons. His shot blocking rate was either at the same level (soph) or better than Kenyon's, and overall was better with the two better seasons being a decent amount better. I think this is just a case of a different interpretation of words with you saying 1.7 is not "pretty good". I don't understand what you consider pretty good shot blocking, I consider the guys over 2 blocks a game good shot blockers, guys in the higher 2 BPG range very good shot blockers, and guys like Alonzo, Camby etc great shot blockers. Maybe I should've said fairly good instead of pretty good and that would appease more to you, I don't really know? If I had know me saying pretty good would be translated as one of the best in the league or something, I would've used a different word. Would you consider Kevin Garnett a pretty good shot blocker? Maybe you would, I don't know, well he averaged 1.7 BPG in 39 MPG this season (a worse rate than Martin who had a 2.0 BPG per 40 production). Would you consider Tyson Chandler a pretty good shot blocker? I don't know, maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't, well he averaged 1.8 BPG in 34.6 MPG this season. Would you consider Dwight Howard a pretty good shot blocker? Well he averaged 1.9 BPG in 36.9 MPG this past season. Rasheed Wallace? 1.6 BPG in 32.3 MPG. I'm a little confused here, I can't say they're average shot blockers, the average guy that blocks shots doesn't swat that many shots away. An average shot blocker is like Chris Bosh with 1.3 BPG in 38.5 MPG, so I don't know what to say here, I'll let you explain that one or just let it go. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When players start playing 40 mpg then I'll take those into consideration. Those projections don't consider fatigue, level of competition, or anything else. They're worthless stats really. And in college level of competition is very important to consider because the disparity is so great. And I'm not saying he was not a good shot blocker in college, I'm saying that I am skeptical about its transference into the NBA like Kenyon Martin. Jason Smith is another guy who's college shot blocking skills probably won't translate into the NBA. </div> Again, I think you're misunderstanding the point of per 40 minute numbers. The point of it is with a good sample size to show a players rate of production. You just said yourself that guys like Darko, Tyrus, Diop etc would average more blocks playing 10 more minutes, that's the exact same thing. You see that their shot blocking production is good, and they're players who aren't fat or out of shape and with more minutes won't be ineffective, and you say they would block more playing more minutes with the same role (as long as they aren't hacks), and that's true. So now are you going against that? The point of his PER 40 isn't to say he's going to give you guys 5 BPG or anything like that (and I think you know that, which is what is confusing me), it's to say when he's on the court, he's a shot blocking presence, and will block shots. About his shot blocking translating, he's one of the guys that has all the tools for it to translate, whether he's a smart player or not. Similar to a Stromile Swift, who's pretty much a bonehead player, but oh yea he can definately block shots. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You didn't say them, but you ignored the factors of them. You can't say "improve basketball IQ." Anyone who's played basketball long enough knows how hard that actually is. Even harder for a guy who seems to be a hard head like Sean. I mean it's like telling Steve Francis, "improve your basketball IQ and you'd be the best point guard in the league." Ofcourse you can say that, but few achieve it. I think Baron Davis would be the best PG in the league, and maybe one of the best all time, if he didn't chuck the ball so much, but to this day he still hasn't learned the difference between a good shot and bad shot. I don't know how long you've followed basketball, but I'm old enough to remember when Derrick Coleman came into the league. One of the most talented players I've ever seen, even moreso than Oden or Durant, but his drug problems, stubborness, and inability to be a real team player is what kept him from becoming great. And Sean isn't even half as talented as DC, but has the same problems. Derrick was able to get by his many years by his talent alone, but Sean doesn't have that ability and my gut is telling me that I should not trust this guy.</div> I know how talented Derrick Coleman was, and how good he could've been. I also know how bad Caron Butler was, and how he's changed his act, but I wasn't here to talk about if Williams can get it together. I was just talking about what he will definately do if he's on an NBA court. I didn't ignore the factors, I was at that time just responding to you saying his shot blocking won't trasnslate, and that's by us assuming he won't be an idiot and actually play in the league. I wasn't giving some in depth analysis of the Sean Williams pick or the player himself, so I don't know is this criticism is really that relevant. Now talking about Francis, when Steve Francis was 22 years old and first came into the league, wouldn't we have said that he could improve his IQ? Many players get smarter, we can see it, Bosh is obviously a much different character guy than Williams, lol, but he got smarter in a lot of things. Some improvements in IQ come from just playing, and this guy missed half the season for being an idiot. He had already made improvements though, he decreased his fouling to a very acceptable amount, and he improved his FT shooting to 70%, improved his offensiv ability. Going back to Francis, of course we won't now say he should improve his IQ when he's 29 and hasn't done if for who knows how long. That's not saying he can't, though I really don't know what he needs to improve in his IQ anymore, he was never the passer people thought, and his problem is just trying to do too much. Kobe does the same thing sometimes but is just a much better player. I'm not here trying to tell you to trust him, I'm just here saying he's a very good shot blocker. The same way Eddie Griffin was and is still a very good shot blocker (and rebounder too), and even improved when he went to Minnesotta, but still can't get his act together and stay in the league. This has nothing to do with how much we can trust him to not be an idiot and actually be productive for your team, I don't trust this guy to stay in the league any more than you do.
The problem is that while you sit there crunching your per 48 minute stats and talking that nonsense is that you neglect to watch and understand the game. Having seen a lot of Sean's games, since one of my internists is from BC, I only see that Sean's blocks do not come regularly. They're erratic, coming from blocking slow guys with even slower shots or just bad shots in general from teams without disciplined offenses. It's not like Oden who has timing with his blocks and to have instincts and not fall for pump fakes. Those are transferable skills. As for blocking a shot just because the guy threw up a bad one and you happened to be by there and be athletic as any man? No. It's not as impressive. But it doesn't really matter cause as long as you have your calculator and box score you can say he's going to be a good shot blocker. Pretty good means exactly what it should, better than good. It's simple English. Pretty good in shot blocking would mean that he's consistently thought of when you take the collective whole of the shot blocking community. So let me ask you, start listing the best shot blockers in the league. I'll bet you it'll take you awhile before you to come up with Kenyon. Which means he isn't pretty good. He's decent, which is the word I'd use, but pretty good? No. As for Rasheed, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler? No I don't consider them pretty good shot blockers. Decent? Yes. Pretty good? No. Kevin Garnett?When Kenyon is getting 20/14/5/2 steals and still has the energy to get 2 blocks a game, then we'll talk. KG does enough on the court for us to start complaining about how he gets below the amount of blocks he should for a guy his height, wingspan, and athleticism. He is a shot blocker, but I ain't going to fault him for not getting enough blocks when he's leading his team in pretty much every statistical category. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now talking about Francis, when Steve Francis was 22 years old and first came into the league, wouldn't we have said that he could improve his IQ? Many players get smarter, we can see it, Bosh is obviously a much different character guy than Williams, lol, but he got smarter in a lot of things. Some improvements in IQ come from just playing, and this guy missed half the season for being an idiot. He had already made improvements though, he decreased his fouling to a very acceptable amount, and he improved his FT shooting to 70%, improved his offensiv ability. Going back to Francis, of course we won't now say he should improve his IQ when he's 29 and hasn't done if for who knows how long. That's not saying he can't, though I really don't know what he needs to improve in his IQ anymore, he was never the passer people thought, and his problem is just trying to do too much. Kobe does the same thing sometimes but is just a much better player.</div> Improving free throws is not a sign of better basketball IQ. What you described is work ethic. That's just working hard, but doesn't mean you gained basketball IQ. IQ would require a cerebral part of the game. Understanding of the game. Picking up less fouls (which is not totally true cause Bosh couldn't stay out of foul trouble with us) could be just a result of getting more calls go your way as you turn into a superstar. Stuff like becoming a better rebounder, improving your footwork timing, that's just practice and work ethic. I'd hardly consider that improving basketball IQ. I mean, partially yes, Bosh did improve his IQ. But the fact is that it's not easy if you don't have the ethic to work at it. And comparing a guy like Bosh to Williams, is like what you said, stupid. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know how talented Derrick Coleman was, and how good he could've been. I also know how bad Caron Butler was, and how he's changed his act, but I wasn't here to talk about if Williams can get it together. I was just talking about what he will definately do if he's on an NBA court. </div> Caron Butler? He went to JD for gun possession for a gun that wasn't even his. Even the cops said it wasn't his, but they only arrested him because he wouldn't name the people they belonged to because they would've hurt his family. I mean seriously, how is protecting your family the same as REPEATEDLY breaking rules and having teachers barely pass you in class? Caron Butler and Allen Iverson had troubled pasts in high school, yes. But when they got to college where they had good coaches and mentors they SHAPED UP. Cause that's what you do in college, you MATURE as a person. I don't think Sean has matured at all and if he's a late bloomer, God bless him, but he has shown ABSOLUTELY NO intent to change anything. I've seen him in interviews and the guy likes being who he is. So no, Caron Butler comparison does not apply. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not here trying to tell you to trust him, I'm just here saying he's a very good shot blocker. The same way Eddie Griffin was and is still a very good shot blocker (and rebounder too), and even improved when he went to Minnesotta, but still can't get his act together and stay in the league. This has nothing to do with how much we can trust him to not be an idiot and actually be productive for your team, I don't trust this guy to stay in the league any more than you do.</div> I'm not saying he's not a good shot blocker in college. I don't get the part where you assumed I said it. I just said I don't think his skills are very transferable to the NBA. Like Kenyon, I assume him to be a decent shot blocker at just below 2 bpg. I never said that was bad, but I don't think that's good or worthy of a lot of praise.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The problem is that while you sit there crunching your per 48 minute stats and talking that nonsense is that you neglect to watch and understand the game. Having seen a lot of Sean's games, since one of my internists is from BC, I only see that Sean's blocks do not come regularly. They're erratic, coming from blocking slow guys with even slower shots or just bad shots in general from teams without disciplined offenses. It's not like Oden who has timing with his blocks and to have instincts and not fall for pump fakes. Those are transferable skills. As for blocking a shot just because the guy threw up a bad one and you happened to be by there and be athletic as any man? No. It's not as impressive. But it doesn't really matter cause as long as you have your calculator and box score you can say he's going to be a good shot blocker. </div> I'm still not understanding why you're making it like we're fighting against each other or something lol. I don't think anyone has used per 48 minute numbers in anything either. I haven't seen much of Sean Williams, and I didn't know most of his blocks came that way, though I don't know if "most" can come that way, but a good amount is what you're saying. Even then, the good shot blockers also get what I suppose we can call "bad" blocks. If that's the case then you might be right, but I didn't get this impression from any of the scouting reports I've read about him. A lot of what I read was that he had very good shot blocking instincts, and he was kinda making me think he's a Theo Ratliff type guy in that area, especially with the poor rebounding too because of going after too many blocks, but also b/c of his poor technique. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Pretty good means exactly what it should, better than good. It's simple English. Pretty good in shot blocking would mean that he's consistently thought of when you take the collective whole of the shot blocking community. So let me ask you, start listing the best shot blockers in the league. I'll bet you it'll take you awhile before you to come up with Kenyon. Which means he isn't pretty good. He's decent, which is the word I'd use, but pretty good? No. As for Rasheed, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler? No I don't consider them pretty good shot blockers. Decent? Yes. Pretty good? No. Kevin Garnett?When Kenyon is getting 20/14/5/2 steals and still has the energy to get 2 blocks a game, then we'll talk. KG does enough on the court for us to start complaining about how he gets below the amount of blocks he should for a guy his height, wingspan, and athleticism. He is a shot blocker, but I ain't going to fault him for not getting enough blocks when he's leading his team in pretty much every statistical category.</div> I don't want to be grammar police, and this isn't English class, but actually "pretty good" does NOT mean better than good. When one says pretty good it means "fairly" or "moderately" good, that's the actual definition of "pretty" when used in that sense; and that's what I was saying. When pretty is used as an adverb, it means something like "to a sufficient degree". You described them as being "decent", well decent itself in this sense would mean "fairly good", so we're saying the same thing here. So I guess I don't need to reply to the rest of what you said do I? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Improving free throws is not a sign of better basketball IQ. What you described is work ethic. That's just working hard, but doesn't mean you gained basketball IQ. IQ would require a cerebral part of the game. Understanding of the game. Picking up less fouls (which is not totally true cause Bosh couldn't stay out of foul trouble with us) could be just a result of getting more calls go your way as you turn into a superstar. Stuff like becoming a better rebounder, improving your footwork timing, that's just practice and work ethic. I'd hardly consider that improving basketball IQ. I mean, partially yes, Bosh did improve his IQ. But the fact is that it's not easy if you don't have the ethic to work at it. And comparing a guy like Bosh to Williams, is like what you said, stupid.</div> That was a grammatical error on my part, I wasn't relating the FT improvement to his IQ, and the funny thing is that I was actually going to edit and change that because I thought it could be interpreted that way. If he's to improve his rebounding though, it would be a basketball IQ thing, he seems like a guy from the little I've seen, and even his weak numbers, who grabs rebounds due to athleticism, and not because of smart positioning and timing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Caron Butler? He went to JD for gun possession for a gun that wasn't even his. Even the cops said it wasn't his, but they only arrested him because he wouldn't name the people they belonged to because they would've hurt his family. I mean seriously, how is protecting your family the same as REPEATEDLY breaking rules and having teachers barely pass you in class? Caron Butler and Allen Iverson had troubled pasts in high school, yes. But when they got to college where they had good coaches and mentors they SHAPED UP. Cause that's what you do in college, you MATURE as a person. I don't think Sean has matured at all and if he's a late bloomer, God bless him, but he has shown ABSOLUTELY NO intent to change anything. I've seen him in interviews and the guy likes being who he is. So no, Caron Butler comparison does not apply. </div> This is funny too because I was thinking to myself, Caron unlike Sean changed before he got to the NBA, so it's not a direct comparison, and wasn't meant to be. Caron Butler though was arrested a good amount of times before he was even a senior in highschool, so I wasn't actually talking about that one situation. Like already said though, I don't have any more hope in Williams changing his ways than the next person, he seems to like smoking weed more than playing basketball, but I don't think I was ever talking about his attitude and his ability to change. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying he's not a good shot blocker in college. I don't get the part where you assumed I said it. I just said I don't think his skills are very transferable to the NBA. Like Kenyon, I assume him to be a decent shot blocker at just below 2 bpg. I never said that was bad, but I don't think that's good or worthy of a lot of praise.</div> Well that's fine then, I can accept that. We just have a difference in opinion then, or I guess he could be an idiot shot blocker like Dalmbert and foul a lot and lead the league in goaltends. Though Dalmbert does look very good in the international zone type setting where he's just camping in the lane blocking shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Ma3oxuct Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's true what you say about Kenyon, but remember, he turned into one of the best defenders in the league. He could guard any of the five opposing players. Also remember that because the Nets needed his 1-on-1 defense more than they needed his help defense, he never really had the chance to show off his blocking ability. Williams does not look that impressive to me either. Kenyon played with a passion that surpasses the passion of most. Although I have not seen Williams play, I doubt that he will be the type of player who can energize his team and the crowd like Kenyon. As I said in my above post, I doubt that Williams will make a big difference.</div> What are basing this off of? As you said, you haven't seen him play so your thought on Sean Williams impact on the court doesn't mean much. I believe some of you are misinterpreting Thorn's quote. He mentioned that they needed a player like Williams ever since they lost Martin to the Nuggets. Also in terms of shot blocking, Sean Williams in college was another level higher than Kenyon Martin the way I see it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm still not understanding why you're making it like we're fighting against each other or something lol. I don't think anyone has used per 48 minute numbers in anything either. I haven't seen much of Sean Williams, and I didn't know most of his blocks came that way, though I don't know if "most" can come that way, but a good amount is what you're saying. Even then, the good shot blockers also get what I suppose we can call "bad" blocks. If that's the case then you might be right, but I didn't get this impression from any of the scouting reports I've read about him. A lot of what I read was that he had very good shot blocking instincts, and he was kinda making me think he's a Theo Ratliff type guy in that area, especially with the poor rebounding too because of going after too many blocks, but also b/c of his poor technique. </div> Nice, scouting reports and a calculator. Great way of proving your argument, only wish more people would talk about basketball without actually having watched it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't want to be grammar police, and this isn't English class, but actually "pretty good" does NOT mean better than good. When one says pretty good it means "fairly" or "moderately" good, that's the actual definition of "pretty" when used in that sense; and that's what I was saying. When pretty is used as an adverb, it means something like "to a sufficient degree". You described them as being "decent", well decent itself in this sense would mean "fairly good", so we're saying the same thing here. So I guess I don't need to reply to the rest of what you said do I? </div> Grammar police? What are we, in 3rd grade? You can't define a term that is subjective in itself. Besides I won't be taking dictionary lessons from a guy who still uses 'lol' when he types. Pretty good means exactly how I state it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is funny too because I was thinking to myself, Caron unlike Sean changed before he got to the NBA, so it's not a direct comparison, and wasn't meant to be. Caron Butler though was arrested a good amount of times before he was even a senior in highschool, so I wasn't actually talking about that one situation. Like already said though, I don't have any more hope in Williams changing his ways than the next person, he seems to like smoking weed more than playing basketball, but I don't think I was ever talking about his attitude and his ability to change. </div> End of the day Caron still made it to the lottery. If you weren't challenging his character fine, but in my opinion, he can't be a player, like you said, if he can't change his attitude. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well that's fine then, I can accept that. We just have a difference in opinion then, or I guess he could be an idiot shot blocker like Dalmbert and foul a lot and lead the league in goaltends. Though Dalmbert does look very good in the international zone type setting where he's just camping in the lane blocking shots.</div> Fine with me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nice, scouting reports and a calculator. Great way of proving your argument, only wish more people would talk about basketball without actually having watched it.</div> Scouts are supposed to HAVE watched the guy play, sorry I don't have time to watch every college basketball player there is, and because you happened to have watched more of him think you now own the world. Of course I'm being sarcastic, you don't have to reply me telling me how you didn't imply that with anything you said. I'm trying to be civil with you and have us reason together, but you just want to attempt to insult and be as antagonistic as possible. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Grammar police? What are we, in 3rd grade? You can't define a term that is subjective in itself. Besides I won't be taking dictionary lessons from a guy who still uses 'lol' when he types. Pretty good means exactly how I state it. </div> Again, I'm trying to be lighthearted here, and you're just trying to be antagonistic for no reason I can see. Maybe you should take grammar lessons from the dictionary then since you're not right, and that's not how "pretty" is defined when used as an adverb. Don't start the grammar correction then ask me if we're in grade three, and then just say "I'm right because I said so". Give me a dictionary definition saying pretty good means that, then I'll agree with you, but you saying so means nothing ot me. Pretty good does not mean better than good, and me saying "lol" does not determine anything about how much grammar I know, that's just picking at nonsense to be annoying. This is the internet and a message board, this isn't me writing a paper. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">End of the day Caron still made it to the lottery. If you weren't challenging his character fine, but in my opinion, he can't be a player, like you said, if he can't change his attitude.</div> Well we all agree on that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Fine with me.</div> Excellent.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Scouts are supposed to HAVE watched the guy play, sorry I don't have time to watch every college basketball player there is, and because you happened to have watched more of him think you now own the world. Of course I'm being sarcastic, you don't have to reply me telling me how you didn't imply that with anything you said. I'm trying to be civil with you and have us reason together, but you just want to attempt to insult and be as antagonistic as possible.</div> One thing I can't really stand is people reading a paper and acting like they knew what happen. This is why I hate going to the main forum where there's a bunch of kids telling me how good Wilt and Russell were when their grandparents are probably too young to remember. If you don't know, just admit to it and not talk about it. If you really want to be condescending and tell me how reading some report and crunching numbers on your calculator is the way to accurately predict a guy's ability, you've got another thing coming to you. It's like if I wrote you a book report about Venice without going there. I can present to you what I read in a book, but none of it would have sustenance because I've never been there. You can't expect anyone to take you seriously when all you do is report back what others tell you. It's just not how it works. So if you want to be righteous and continue to berate me for paragraphs for one line? Go ahead. End of the day, I've watched him play, analyzed his game on my own, and you've read some report. Whether it be the horrible draftexpress.com or the even worse nbadraft.net, both that were under 30% right for the prediction of how the draft went, go ahead trust it. But don't you dare tell me to take your word, or in this case, the words of someone else. That's paraphrasing, and that's basically plagiarism. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, I'm trying to be lighthearted here, and you're just trying to be antagonistic for no reason I can see. Maybe you should take grammar lessons from the dictionary then since you're not right, and that's not how "pretty" is defined when used as an adverb. Don't start the grammar correction then ask me if we're in grade three, and then just say "I'm right because I said so". Give me a dictionary definition saying pretty good means that, then I'll agree with you, but you saying so means nothing ot me. Pretty good does not mean better than good, and me saying "lol" does not determine anything about how much grammar I know, that's just picking at nonsense to be annoying. This is the internet and a message board, this isn't me writing a paper. </div> Like you said this is an internet message board. It is unable to understand tone and intonation without you actually saying so. Coming here and telling me you meant it light-heartily, how the hell am I supposed to know? Cause you said 'lol'? I'm over 30 years old, you expect me to understand what my nephew's lingo? Secondly, if you really want to get technical, pretty as an adverb can also mean very. Like I said, it's a subjective term, you know what that means, right officer?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So if you want to be righteous and continue to berate me for paragraphs for one line? Go ahead. End of the day, I've watched him play, analyzed his game on my own, and you've read some report. Whether it be the horrible draftexpress.com or the even worse nbadraft.net, both that were under 30% right for the prediction of how the draft went, go ahead trust it. But don't you dare tell me to take your word, or in this case, the words of someone else. That's paraphrasing, and that's basically plagiarism. </div> Accuracy in predicting a draft means nothing in terms of ability to scout a specific player. The coaches, team scouts, GM's, whoever else we can look at in the NBA wouldn't be more than 30% accurate in predicting the draft themselves because they don't know what everyone else is thinking, as there are too many variables. While your analogy is fair, comparing the interpretation of an NBA players skills from words and seeing him play (I said I haven't seen much of him, not that I haven't seen him AT ALL) to describing a city don't directly correlate. There's much more in describing a city than there is in describing a players skills, especially when one plays, watches and knows basketball already. You're making too much of this, I thought and still think the guy can be a good shot blocker if he plays in the NBA. I didn't watch all 15 of his games this past season or all of his games for his whole career, but I saw him play, have seen some of his blocks, have heard what other people who have also watched him have to say, and I'm fine with that. I never claimed to be an expert on him, but I put out what I could based on what information was available to me. I didn't say this is how he will be, I said this is my perception of him, the end. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like you said this is an internet message board. It is unable to understand tone and intonation without you actually saying so. Coming here and telling me you meant it light-heartily, how the hell am I supposed to know? Cause you said 'lol'? I'm over 30 years old, you expect me to understand what my nephew's lingo?</div> There was nothing I said that was mean in the first place so I didn't need to mean anything lightheartedly. What I mean was that I approached this whole debate lightheartedly, and I definately can't conclude that you did the same thing and still can't see anything that directs me to that conclusion. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Secondly, if you really want to get technical, pretty as an adverb can also mean very. Like I said, it's a subjective term, you know what that means, right officer?</div> I don't know of many people who use it in that sense, but that's fine. I'm not the one that was telling you what you meant by your use of a phrase. You're the one that was telling me it's "simple English" that it means "very good". Now you tell me it's subjective. In addition to that, I clearly said before that what I meant was pretty good in the sense of being moderate or decent, but you replied me with saying something like "pretty good means exactly how I state it". Well, that's very good then.
