Big Mistake

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting crazytown:</div><div class="quote_post">1st off, I just skimmed through your post. Don't have time to read it all. And it's quality , not quantity. You had a lot of the latter.

Let's breakdown a few of your obvious bias statements:

You proclaim how Shaqs contract hindered the Lakers from aquiring players to build around Kobe. You do realize they aguired 2 bad contracts(Odom & Grant)?

Here's an excerpt from an NBA expert. Why am I going by an expert you ask? 1) I only go by experts I actually agree with. If my opinions just happens to coincide with an expert then I'll point it out. Cmon bro, you learn this kind of stuff in college, ENG 101 courses. Having sources to back up your claims...anyways...2)Because they have MUCH more credibilty than a guy on a Laker Forum. Why aren't you writing for ESPN or any other NBA-like business? Seems like the perfect occupation for you based an you "knowledge of basketball". WHy are you wasting your time in here writing "elaborate", well thought out arguments" in here. (Note:The quotation marks denotes sarcasm. I wasn't stroking your already huge ego) Anyways, back to the excerpt:

Losers of Free Agency:

Los Angeles Lakers - You probably know by now where we stand on this one. While true that keeping Shaq and Kobe and Phil Jackson together would have been exceedingly expensive and a virtual commitment to ongoing chaos, the feeling here remains that the Lakers didn't get nearly enough for O'Neal. Not enough size. No established All-Stars. No more financial flexibility than they would have had by keeping the old gang together. In a perfect world, Shaq would have consented to a pay cut and Kobe would have reached out to the other sides of the triangle to seek a truce and Jerry Buss would have listened to the reason coming from his basketball people about breaking this thing up too quickly. Not in Lakerland, though. That kind of stuff, apparently, only happens in San Antonio.





EDIT: You know what, just that little paragraph alone answers ALL your questions. Which alludes to my original point, Quality over quantity.



You forget, Jerry West is no longer with the Lakers. It's Mitch now. And I'd like to see some quotes about that. Where's your proof? Most people though nothing of the trade.



I'm sorry, since when was the age of 25 mean your best years are over. Again, you credibility just down the tank even more.(If that's even possible). T-Mac ego got the best of him. All he had to do was wait a year. If HIll got hurt and retired his contract would be off the books and D.Howard who has the potential to be a Superstar.

BOTTOM LINE:

1)Lakers were fleeced by Miami. They would've gotten the same value had they traded him 2 years ago. 2 years would not have made a difference.
2)What SANE NBA owner would trade the most dominant big man after he just brought the team their 3rd straight Championship? Keep in mind, 1)they went BACK to the Finals the 2 years later. 4 out of 5 years in the NBA Finals. Any sane team would take that in a heartbeat. 2)They were the favorite AGAIN in 02-03.

Your reasoning is completely absurd.

Sorry kid, just because you have a "unique" (there's those sarcastic quotations again) opinion. Doesn't make it right.

Check Mate. Game Over. :king: I've wasted enough time on you. I'm sure your Laker buddies will agree with everything you say.

LOOK OUTSIDE THE BOX And that's my final word. </div>

I had a whole spiel laid out about how I am smarter than you are...but I just figured I don't need to get into that. If you want to know about my educational background and accomplishments you can PM me and I'll send you my resume.

This is a basketball debate...its about constructing arguments and I find your debate tactics rather immature and childish. I don't want to stoop to the same level so here goes the actual debate in which an education in logic has much more of an impact than the engineering courses you spoke of.

1. If you only skimmed the post, then you have no real bearing of whether the post was quality or quantity. I assure you it was a little bit of both unlike the half-ass rebuttal you threw together.

2. Your argument here came back against the current trade. The original statement was that I think trading Oneal was smart, and I still do, but the more important point was that they should have traded him 2 years ago and your entire argument failed to address that fact. Oh wait, except for your "they would have gotten the same value 2 years ago" comment. Yes that was brilliantly backed up as well as contradicted by your own statements. That any owner would have been insane to trade the most dominant big man coming off of 3 finals mvps, a couple league mvps, 3 titles, and that any sane executive would have taken 4 finals appearances in 5 years. You're right, and so then if any sane owner would have done anything to keep him, then any sane owner also would have given anything to have had him. Go ask any expert ANY expert if they think the Lakers would have gotten a much better deal had they dealt Oneal 2 years ago they would probably say "yes, but there was no reason to do so".

3. Play monday morning quarterback here for a second. This was actually probably the best deal the lakers could have gotten at this point in time. I fail to see how you can say the lakers took back 2 bad contracts. I'll give you that Brian Grant's contract is bad, 3 years at wutever 40 million bucks it is, but how can you call Odoms contract "bad". 25 years old, the same age as Kobe Bryant, comes at 5 years with an average pay of just about 10 million a year and averaged 17/10/and 4 last season. While he might not change the game the way Shaq does, he is a very versatile forward that can play either forward slot because his size and length is a problem for sf's and his quickness is a problem for pf's. Then you see his ability to play the point-forward and you see the possibilities of a very big and athletic lineup from the 1-3 in Kobe, Caron, and Odom...so had you known the problems that would have arisen in the past 2 years due to keeping shaq, and known that the lakers would not win another championship in the past 2 years, and known that they would have gotten fleeced because they were forced to deal Oneal this off-season, then how can you legitimize your comment that they would have gotten the same value 2 seasons ago when you yourself claimed that any sane owner would have taken what Oneal provided.

Sure it'd be easy for someone to say 'wow they should have traded him a couple years ago when he was starting to fall off and he and Kobe couldn't play together anymore, they coulda gotten a lot for him back then' but that wasnt it either...i realized the situation we were going to be in this off-season 2 years ago...and had kupchak seen what i saw, and what eventually ended up happening, he probably would have pulled hte trigger 2 years ago too even if people called him crazy.

4. I have read a ton of those expert articles on 'trading the greats'. I strongly disagree with their criticism of the teams that traded away of the more dominant players. Their performance had dropped off significantly with their then teams, mostly because they had lost their motivation, so just because when they were 'dissed' they got remotivated. then they worked their asses off and made the team that traded them look like fools but that doesn't make the team that traded them wrong because more than likely they were not going to get that same high level of performance out of hte player anyways.

that being said, i wouldnt be surprised to see shaq average 30 and 15 next season or something ridiculous like that. that also wasnt my point. my point was that no matter what, he did not and would not have given teh lakers that kind of effort and dedication anytime in the past 2 years or in the next 2.

5. you say my credibility goes down the tank even more (if thats possible) because of my remarks about t-mac and orlando trading him. does that mean that my beliefs that you might actually be able to read should go down the tank as well? where in there did i say that t-mac was going to be washed up and that his best years were behind him? it said "t-macs best years were behind him (in an orlando jersey)"...but really...you did a fine job attacking my credibility there...really...good job...except for the fact in doing so you revealed the fact that you don't know how to read...

6. I'd really love to go dig up old video footage and newspaper articles from 8 years ago so I could prove my point, but most people (if they're old enough to remember) will recall that it was a very questionable move the day that Jerry West traded their starting center for a 6'6 skinny high school kid...and if they don't remember its probably because the loss of vlade was quickly forgotten with the signing of Shaq a week later...

7. You talk about quality vs quantity...your rebuttal was pretty long itself, but it was mostly, once again, a copy and pasted quote from an expert that you claim addressed all the questions i posed, yet in reality didnt answer a single one (keep in mind i never said that the Lakers got fair value for Shaq in this trade, i just said it was a good move...and you posted a source that said 'it was a bad move'...thats great...but i already read that story, in fact i already read like 20 of them, and i disagree...and i told you why i disagree...you tell me why you disagree with me and then you pull a quote from a sports writer...good job...you're very smart...i found it very tough when i was trying to learn how to click "ctrl" and "c" and "ctrl" and "p" at the same time too). and making a quality argument against someone requires reading through what they said so do me, yourself, and the rest of the board a favor...and do not criticize someone again unless you are actually going to take the time to back it up with reasoning (dont call my reasoning absurd when your reasoning is non-existent).

8. you mock me for not wanting to write for a sports publication or what not...the fact of the matter is...basketball is merely a hobby to me, and yes I do spend quite a bit of time on it, but the only way i would ever want to make a career out of it is if 1. i were a player (and at 5'5 i gave up on that dream a long time ago), or 2. if i were an owner (see me in 25 years)...but being a writer takes too much time and makes too little money and would also require me to go to journalism school, something i really don't feel like doing...i would like to be involved in the league some day but the only way to do that is to have a big name as a player or a big checking account...and i'll never have the checking account big enough if i become a writer, so that's why i never pursued that route fyi...

9. do not respond unless you read this post very thoroughly...your lil 'checkmate' comment was quite presumptious and well...umm stupid...because you did nothing at all in your post to discredit my arguments...all you did was emphasize the second post that i made saying all you would have to say is 'you're stupid, you dont know what you're talking about' + ctrl+c, and ctrl+p...because thats all you did...except for you expanded 'you dont know what you're talking about' into about 250 words...and you scoffed at the quality of my posts...at least i said something of substance in mine buddy...and don't ever call me 'kid' again...you are in no position to disrespect someone like me in any way...got it 'son'?

 

SC Brian stop writing damn books! I'll bet you like the computer cause it doesnt ever wear out like those crayons you usually write with, When West traded Vlade the lakers where not coming of 3 straight Championships in fact they where struggling to make the playoffs. According to your logic Jordan should have been up for trades twice in his career? Your ignorance (and biased) is shown in the 8>23. Kobe has never won a thing without Shaq and until he does (at least 3 times over) Jordan will always be better.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">And actually...the Lakers beat the 76ers in five games, but 4 consecutive...Games 2-5. Sixers shocked everyone by winning the first one, but the Lakers realized that they underestimated them, so they stomped them into the ground for the rest of the series.</div>

Plus the Lakers had the Iverson stopper Tyrone Lue remember him. Plus you gotta admit that the other 3 Laker teams were much better then this recent one they had alot of role player that knew how to do their job.

 

SCBrian, I've always loved your posting style, and how you aren't afraid to back down to anyone, just wish you could stick around more. That was single handedly the best post I've read here at JBB, great job!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rphinney1:</div><div class="quote_post">SC Brian stop writing damn books! I'll bet you like the computer cause it doesnt ever wear out like those crayons you usually write with, When West traded Vlade the lakers where not coming of 3 straight Championships in fact they where struggling to make the playoffs. According to your logic Jordan should have been up for trades twice in his career? Your ignorance (and biased) is shown in the 8>23. Kobe has never won a thing without Shaq and until he does (at least 3 times over) Jordan will always be better.</div>
What? Is your attention span too short?

Jordan was still in his prime both times he came off the 3 peats and they couldn't trade him because he retired both times, remember? Jordan also didn't have any problems with the team...well, except for the management.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NJNetz:</div><div class="quote_post">Plus the Lakers had the Iverson stopper Tyrone Lue remember him. Plus you gotta admit that the other 3 Laker teams were much better then this recent one they had alot of role player that knew how to do their job.</div>

But Lue was far from the Iverson Stopper. AI is just inconsistent, period. He's never going to win a ring, either, unless he improves his jumpers and his decision-making on the court. His attitude doesn't help, either. Back to the Lakers...I will admit that they did have a better team back then, but the reason for that was because now (well, last year), the Lakers were feuding in the locker rooms, in the press, everywhere...and Payton couldn't run the point because of the triangle, this and that...Malone proved to be fragile. Things fell apart quick...take a couple years off Malone and Gary Payton, and off of Shaq and Kobe also. If you do that, and put them four on the same team, the Lakers would destroy anyone that got in their way, all four would be on the All-Star team, and they would beat the record of 72-10 set by Chicago in 1995-1996.

 

SCBrian and all other Laker fans in here :thumbsup:

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting rphinney1:</div><div class="quote_post">SC Brian stop writing damn books! I'll bet you like the computer cause it doesnt ever wear out like those crayons you usually write with, When West traded Vlade the lakers where not coming of 3 straight Championships in fact they where struggling to make the playoffs. According to your logic Jordan should have been up for trades twice in his career? Your ignorance (and biased) is shown in the 8>23. Kobe has never won a thing without Shaq and until he does (at least 3 times over) Jordan will always be better.</div>

I apologize for the long posts, i've just had a lot of stuff to say on this matter and a few others. However, regarding your personal critiques implying that I write with crayons on a regular basis...are you trying to imply that my posts have the intellectual capacity of a child written on them? I am not knocking those who write with crayons, in fact I have a box of crayolas sitting on my desk because it helps me visualize color combinations when I am preparing proposals and the likes. Those proposals have been presented to the highest ranking executives of a number of fortune 500 companies across the US and its hard for me to imagine that those calliber people would listen to someone that is 21 years old if their quality of writing is no better than that of a child scribbling on a napkin with some crayons (but believe me some of my best brainstorming ideas have been put down on a napkin with a crayon at restaurants before).

Even though the Lakers had not come off the 3 championships, the general consensus among the NBA is you never trade big for small, we all know this...so when Jerry West moved an established and skilled big man (which Vlade is, i may not like him personally, but he was a really good center when we traded him and has played well for the Kings) for an unproven high school shooting guard, it was a controversial and risky move that paid out huge.

According to my logic, Jordan should have never been traded. He never had conflict with a player that was going to be the future franchise player for the bulls. All of those bulls teams were built around him, with good quality players who were picked to, and were capable of, being complimentary players to Jordan. Kobe has not had that luxury, not yet at least. We will see in the coming years. From a skill standpoint, Kobe at 25 is better than Jordan at 25, and now he is going to have his shot to prove that he can carry a team BUILT AROUND HIM the same way that MJ did. Don't get me wrong, I will never knock the greatness of Michael Jordan. He is singlehandedly the best thing that ever happened to NBA basketball and I was and still am a huge fan of his. However, these days Michael Jordans legacy have become somewhat of a legend because people only remember the great things about him. They remember his 6 championships that he led the Bulls to, yet they don't remember the controversies surrounding him in his early years (yes even at 25) and the 'experts' saying that a scoring champion could never lead a team to an NBA title. They think of him as such a standout guy in comparison to Kobe, but they forget the extramarital affairs that ruined his marriage or the gambling problems which are believed to have led to the murder of his father.

MJ and Scottie had a working relationship. I would in no way call them good friends. The difference between MJ and Scottie is there was always a clear distinction of who would be the supporting player to whom. While Scottie and MJ probably never really liked eachother, they both respected eachother and knew that they helped one-another. Pippen was a great player in his own right and Jordan knew this. They never talked trash behind eachothers backs or in the media to cause friction the way that Kobe and Shaq did (and i am not putting all the blame on Shaq, Kobe did not handle some of the situations in the best way possible) but the point is that they coudl work together and MJ never had to be moved.

Kobe may have never won without Shaq but Shaq has never won without Kobe either. Shaq had his chances with a premier pg (Penny), sharp shooters who could stretch the defense for inside outside purposes (Skiles, Andersen, and Scott). How was Kobe supposed to win without Shaq, I really don't see how you can hold this against him. Until this coming season, he's never been on a team without Shaq. He won high school championships without Shaq...does that count? His entire NBA career has been spent on the same team as Shaq and so "kobe has never won without Shaq" is a prime candidate for obvious statement of the century. At the same time, MJ never won without Pippen, and Pippen never won without MJ. Pippen had a chance and I think he did an outstanding job with the team he had to work with when Jordan retired the first time around, but the team just didnt have enough firepower behind him, yet he still proved he was a high-calliber player in his own right.

The statement that Kobe is better than MJ can be seen in a lot of ways. Skill level, championships at what age, etc. Even though Kobe may not have led those 3 title runs, he was without question a crucial piece to those teams. At 25, he has skills that surpass those that MJ possessed at hte same age, he has 3 more rings than MJ had at his age, and there are people with close knowledge of both players who have stated that if they had to choose between MJ and Kobe they woudl choose Kobe. Pippen praised Kobe in comparisons to MJ last year, and John Salley outright stated that having played with both players, he would rather have Kobe Bryant on a team if he was building it than Michael Jordan. This was on the best damn sports show period.

I do have a bias, this is true. Kobe Bryant is my favorite player to have ever played the game of basketball. However, I do try my best (and im not saying its always effective) to leave my biases out of my posts and try to come up with logical arguments as to why I think the way that I do.

Once again, I apologize for the long post, but I'd prefer to stay away from the posts that say "you are stupid and I am right" like certain other members of this online community. Clearly thought out arguments, backed up with the reasoning I have for making those arguments. From my experiences, however, those that argue against me and claim that I am biased are just as biased in the other direction as I am in mine, if not more so. Keep that in mind.

Sasha - I appreciate the comments, hopefully you won't have to read nasty rebuttals anymore and I'll be able to explain my thoughts clearly. Mel has encouraged me to just write articles from now on. I'm considering just doing that so I don't have to deal with the garbage of justifying myself to people who can't hold an argument with me, and then just try and slam my credibility and mock my intelligence.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">But Lue was far from the Iverson Stopper. AI is just inconsistent, period. He's never going to win a ring, either, unless he improves his jumpers and his decision-making on the court. His attitude doesn't help, either. Back to the Lakers...I will admit that they did have a better team back then, but the reason for that was because now (well, last year), the Lakers were feuding in the locker rooms, in the press, everywhere...and Payton couldn't run the point because of the triangle, this and that...Malone proved to be fragile. Things fell apart quick...take a couple years off Malone and Gary Payton, and off of Shaq and Kobe also. If you do that, and put them four on the same team, the Lakers would destroy anyone that got in their way, all four would be on the All-Star team, and they would beat the record of 72-10 set by Chicago in 1995-1996.</div>

if you shaved a few years off of Shaq, Malone, Payton, and Left Kobe the way he is that team would surely dominate. But what I told people when they got Malone and Payton these guys are too old and can't handle the physical play any more and people were just expecting to much from a team that aged and couldnt keep up with Kobe and possibly Shaq but more Kobe.

With that AI thing I had to give it to Lue cause he did put the clamps on him.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SCBrian:</div><div class="quote_post">I apologize for the long posts, i've just had a lot of stuff to say on this matter and a few others. However, regarding your personal critiques implying that I write with crayons on a regular basis...are you trying to imply that my posts have the intellectual capacity of a child written on them? I am not knocking those who write with crayons, in fact I have a box of crayolas sitting on my desk because it helps me visualize color combinations when I am preparing proposals and the likes. Those proposals have been presented to the highest ranking executives of a number of fortune 500 companies across the US and its hard for me to imagine that those calliber people would listen to someone that is 21 years old if their quality of writing is no better than that of a child scribbling on a napkin with some crayons (but believe me some of my best brainstorming ideas have been put down on a napkin with a crayon at restaurants before).

Even though the Lakers had not come off the 3 championships, the general consensus among the NBA is you never trade big for small, we all know this...so when Jerry West moved an established and skilled big man (which Vlade is, i may not like him personally, but he was a really good center when we traded him and has played well for the Kings) for an unproven high school shooting guard, it was a controversial and risky move that paid out huge.

According to my logic, Jordan should have never been traded. He never had conflict with a player that was going to be the future franchise player for the bulls. All of those bulls teams were built around him, with good quality players who were picked to, and were capable of, being complimentary players to Jordan. Kobe has not had that luxury, not yet at least. We will see in the coming years. From a skill standpoint, Kobe at 25 is better than Jordan at 25, and now he is going to have his shot to prove that he can carry a team BUILT AROUND HIM the same way that MJ did. Don't get me wrong, I will never knock the greatness of Michael Jordan. He is singlehandedly the best thing that ever happened to NBA basketball and I was and still am a huge fan of his. However, these days Michael Jordans legacy have become somewhat of a legend because people only remember the great things about him. They remember his 6 championships that he led the Bulls to, yet they don't remember the controversies surrounding him in his early years (yes even at 25) and the 'experts' saying that a scoring champion could never lead a team to an NBA title. They think of him as such a standout guy in comparison to Kobe, but they forget the extramarital affairs that ruined his marriage or the gambling problems which are believed to have led to the murder of his father.

MJ and Scottie had a working relationship. I would in no way call them good friends. The difference between MJ and Scottie is there was always a clear distinction of who would be the supporting player to whom. While Scottie and MJ probably never really liked eachother, they both respected eachother and knew that they helped one-another. Pippen was a great player in his own right and Jordan knew this. They never talked trash behind eachothers backs or in the media to cause friction the way that Kobe and Shaq did (and i am not putting all the blame on Shaq, Kobe did not handle some of the situations in the best way possible) but the point is that they coudl work together and MJ never had to be moved.

Kobe may have never won without Shaq but Shaq has never won without Kobe either. Shaq had his chances with a premier pg (Penny), sharp shooters who could stretch the defense for inside outside purposes (Skiles, Andersen, and Scott). How was Kobe supposed to win without Shaq, I really don't see how you can hold this against him. Until this coming season, he's never been on a team without Shaq. He won high school championships without Shaq...does that count? His entire NBA career has been spent on the same team as Shaq and so "kobe has never won without Shaq" is a prime candidate for obvious statement of the century. At the same time, MJ never won without Pippen, and Pippen never won without MJ. Pippen had a chance and I think he did an outstanding job with the team he had to work with when Jordan retired the first time around, but the team just didnt have enough firepower behind him, yet he still proved he was a high-calliber player in his own right.

The statement that Kobe is better than MJ can be seen in a lot of ways. Skill level, championships at what age, etc. Even though Kobe may not have led those 3 title runs, he was without question a crucial piece to those teams. At 25, he has skills that surpass those that MJ possessed at hte same age, he has 3 more rings than MJ had at his age, and there are people with close knowledge of both players who have stated that if they had to choose between MJ and Kobe they woudl choose Kobe. Pippen praised Kobe in comparisons to MJ last year, and John Salley outright stated that having played with both players, he would rather have Kobe Bryant on a team if he was building it than Michael Jordan. This was on the best damn sports show period.

I do have a bias, this is true. Kobe Bryant is my favorite player to have ever played the game of basketball. However, I do try my best (and im not saying its always effective) to leave my biases out of my posts and try to come up with logical arguments as to why I think the way that I do.

Once again, I apologize for the long post, but I'd prefer to stay away from the posts that say "you are stupid and I am right" like certain other members of this online community. Clearly thought out arguments, backed up with the reasoning I have for making those arguments. From my experiences, however, those that argue against me and claim that I am biased are just as biased in the other direction as I am in mine, if not more so. Keep that in mind.

Sasha - I appreciate the comments, hopefully you won't have to read nasty rebuttals anymore and I'll be able to explain my thoughts clearly. Mel has encouraged me to just write articles from now on. I'm considering just doing that so I don't have to deal with the garbage of justifying myself to people who can't hold an argument with me, and then just try and slam my credibility and mock my intelligence.</div>

The point I am making is after 3 rings in a row you don't trade your franchise player..................Period (By the way this is a basketball forum so talk basket ball not about your profession) My guess is people are here to talk about basketball and not here about anyone's job life etc.

I thought you where your own expert and you didnt quote other guys, I guess you just jock John Salley the same way you do Kobe huh?

Michael Jordan went to 6 finals <u>he won them all</u>! He won 6 Finals MVP's, that means whenever he went to the finals he was the best on the court! AND that he never let his team lose no matter what it took, Kobe hasn't, he was not able to lift his team above the pistons to win. That is what Jordan has, the ability to win in any situation no matter what. So Kobe has had a chance to match Jordan and he didnt do it.

Seems to me Shaq went to the finals in 95? Maybe I was dreaming?
When Kobe takes this team to the finals as Shaq did his in 95 then you can say Kobe is capable.

Last Kobe isnt even the best player <u>now </u> he hasnt even won a MVP Award? How can he be better than Jordan (best ever) Would you take him over Duncan?

 

if you can talk about how you think i write in crayons, i can tell you that i have a better career path than you.

yes, shaq did go to the finals in 95...but that still doesnt cover my original argument that kobe has never had the chance to go to the finals by himself...hes always been on a team with shaq...

its rather hard to expect kobe to be able to carry a team that is not built around him the way mj's team was build around jordan...that bulls team was designed to let michael carry them on his shoulders...the lakers offense this past year was designed to feed shaq in the post...with no shooting threats on the floor, the pistons were free to double, and triple team kobe while not having to worry about him kicking it to an open guy cuz half the time the guy wouldnt even shoot it, and the other half of the time when he would shoot it, he'd make like 1/4...and the defense just slacked and sagged halfway between the ball and shaq and had ben playing him from behind making it nearly impossible to throw an entry pass...

kobes inefficiencies were a direct result of inadequate teammates...shaqs inefficiencies (yes i know he was very efficient in the finals...but he didnt get the ball enough) were a direct result of inadequate teammates...but only one of those guys' contracts were the cause of the inadequate teammates, and that was shaq...

i do take into account the opinions of experts, however, i use those to formulate my own theories and beliefs...but do not lecture me on talking about my 'job' when you want to personally attack me and imply that you think my writing is childish. i personally think you and crazytown are morons with iq's of about 120 but i wouldn't say that...oh wait...i just did...

 

Guys...nobody takes a team to the Finals by themselves these days. Jordan was the closest to doing that, but he still had Pippen. Taking the team to the championship single-handedly would be like McGrady doing it last year. Duncan had Parker/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe had each other, Shaq had Penny in Orlando, Jordan had Pippen...the list goes on. Hakeem Olajuwon's ability to do so could be debated...but he did have great shooters. Shaq has Wade...Kobe will have Odom...it'll always be a debate.

 

Hakeem had Drexler no?
Well I think everyone has to realize that no one man team can win it. McGrady played a superman role but his team didn't win. With Yao, I believe he will win more games. It's always getting the right pieces, and maybe some kind of luck. SO many great players couldn't win it even when they had the right pieces around them. Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl & John, etc. I don't know if LA made a big mistake, tho. I hope they did cuz it only means the positive to my HEAT.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SCBrian:</div><div class="quote_post">ps. i make original analysis and remarks...and my thoughts don't come copy and pasted from what 'experts' may have written...you may not agree with it because of what 'experts' have written and you have read but believe me, i know a lot about the game of basketball...i am a true student of the league and of the game...and if you don't have anything original to say...do not refer to any of my statements that go against conventional thinking as dumb...the ability to regurgitate the thoughts and words of someone else is not intelligence...</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SCBrian:</div><div class="quote_post">i do take into account the opinions of experts, however, i use those to formulate my own theories and beliefs</div>

And the pistons didnt have to worry about Kobe kicking it out cause he wasnt going to pass the damn ball!
What "shooters" are the Lakers going to add, remember Grant and Odom are getting paid for years to come, the lakers are still every bit as strapped as they where with Shaq, so what they have now is pretty close to what they will end up with for the upcoming year. I'm confused is it Odom or Grant that is going to be Kobe's "kick out guy" and take the heat off him?

Why dont you go run down Kobe's street and get arrested like you where planning on, Kobe Bryant will never have as many championships or MVP's as Michael Jordan. Sorry.

 

the lakers should have traded shaq to sacramento for brad miller and c.webb. imagine the laker-king rivalry after that trade.

 

I feel the Lakers did make a big mistake by trading Shaq but did they have a choice....Shaq wanted to be respected and management just wanted to pay him least possible and pay Kobe as much as possible....they didn't give Shaq the respect he deserved and it showed. Phil even said it wasn't goin in the direction he liked....I don't believe Kobe even cared that Shaq left or even did anything in his power to keep him there...Kobe is a selfish person and can u blame him? Look at what he's done....he's won 3 rings...all of which Shaq was MVP....he is compared to MJ and he averages easily 25 a game....Kobe has a right to be selfish but look at the bigger picture of things....which is much bigger than Kobe....which is Shaq....Shaq is a easy 25 point scorer and 10+ rebounds a game player....i feel that LA favored Kobe over Shaq for no reason.....Shaq can win with and without Kobe....it's been proven but can Kobe win without Shaq? Shaq wins because he is a team player...Kobe at times can be selfish...but again look at who is hypin him up....Laker fans are....Shaq is better off with the Heat and he will basically run through the East until they play Detroit...Kobe and the Lakers will struggle...no big man...and they have to find a way to expand their talent and with Kobe at the reins...I don't think they can....no offense to anyone but Kobe is selfish...when Shaq touches the ball...LA scores...when he doesn't....maybe they will or its a turnover....Who will step up for LA? Odom will....Butler, if hes healthy....Grant....his Portland days may just haunt him....Payton?...will he disappear like he did in the Finals? When I say disappear...I mean will he show up on certain games or play like he always has in Seattle...only time will tell who has the better career from here and it's not looking good in LA....

 

I don't think the question is if Kobe can win without Shaq, or if Shaq can win without Kobe...because I'm sure they both can get a ring without each other. I think it's this: can they win, together or not, without Phil? They couldn't do it for 3 years together until Phil came along in the 1999-2000 season, where they won it his first year there. Jordan and Pippen didn't win a ring until Phil's first year as coach either...3 years without Phil also, from 1987 (Pippen's draft year) until the 90-91 season. See any similarities?

 

Pippen needs Jordan in order to win another ring lol....Pippen hasn't had a good game since Jordan left...could Shaq be Jordan in a similar situation?