Here is the statistic. Kobe took 1178 shots this season. Out of those he made 516. This is in a season were he only played 65 games and started 64 of them. Shaq on the other hand took 948 shots this season. Then made 554 of them. True he to had his injuries this season, but looking at that stat who was more selfish. I think it is clear through that statistic. He not only took over 100+ less shots then kobe he made more than him too. Shaq also played 67 games two more than kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Pure Skillz:</div><div class="quote_post">Here is the statistic. Kobe took 1178 shots this season. Out of those he made 516. This is in a season were he only played 65 games and started 64 of them. Shaq on the other hand took 948 shots this season. Then made 554 of them. True he to had his injuries this season, but looking at that stat who was more selfish. I think it is clear through that statistic. He not only took over 100+ less shots then kobe he made more than him too. Shaq also played 67 games two more than kobe.</div> Wow, Very good Pure Skillz, You Just proved your point. He switched my opinion over.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Pure Skillz:</div><div class="quote_post">True he to had his injuries this season, but looking at that stat who was more selfish.</div> He shouldn't shoot if he's gonna take a bad shot. Injured? Cut finger?........what's next chipped nail?.........bad hair day?
Another stat to help further my case. The stats for the NBA finals http://www.nba.com/statistics/2003/default...?topic=0&stat=8 though kobe shot under 40% a game he took the most shots in the series out of players from both the lakers and pistons teams. While shaq was third on the list shooting well over 50% and not attempting even 100 field goals.
Good job killing the thread Pure Skillz , j/k. He's right though, and everyone else too, how can the measure between a center and SG of who's more selfish be assists, that's just stupid, Kobe gets more shots and many more touches than Shaq, he initiates the offense, and even made Payton more of the secondary than primary ball handler because Phil liked Kobe bringing the ball up to initiate the offense, and with Derek Fisher Kobe was the PG (on offense), Fisher was just there .
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting kobe_8:</div><div class="quote_post">2003-2004 Kobe Bryant Assist Per Game 5.1 Shaquille O'Neal Assist Per Game 2.9 hmmm... now who needs to pass more ball? </div> Kobe does. He has WAYYYYYYYYY more touches than Shaq and he is a guard. He gets the ball way too much and forces his own shots. Shaq is a great passer especially for a big man. Second to Vlade Divac. Name a center that had high assist numbers beside Wilt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ADubb20:</div><div class="quote_post">He shouldn't shoot if he's gonna take a bad shot. Injured? Cut finger?........what's next chipped nail?.........bad hair day?</div>
yes...kobe took 4 more shots per game than shaq...yes shaq shot 58% from the field to kobes 44% from the field... Kobe Bryant - SG in case some of you don't know...that "S" in SG stands for...Shooting...as in Shooting guard...let repeat...SHOOTING guard... as for fg%'s...umm wouldn't you hope that Shaq or anyone would shoot 2 footers and dunks at a higher percentage than 18foot jumpers? lets also not forget the inability of THE REST OF THE LAKER TEAM to feed the ball into shaq and hit wide open jumpers...which resulted in possessions winding the clock down to 3 on the 24 and one of the other incompetent lakers throwing kobe the ball forcing kobe to take a bad shot...or yah...his other option would be to create and dump the ball into shaq which would take 1-2 seconds...and then shaq could take another 2-3 seconds to start and finish his move...but oh yah...one problem...shot clock violation... i'll agree...kobe takes a wide array of bad shots...but the majority of them are either under the gun of the shotclock because his team hasnt been able to create any offense or he was just feeling it and took a stupid shot...it happens...a lot of wing players fall victim to that... i also agree that shaq is a great passer for a big man...problem is...he plays from the low block...which creates traffic under the hoop...the ideal situation for a good big man passer is to be able to play from the elbow...this opens up back cutting lanes to the hoop for easy dump bounce passes to cutting guards...shaq cant play from the elbow though for the simple fact that he can't make that shot... *edited...sorry there are a ridiculous number of spelling errors and incoherent sentences in this post but its almost 3am and i've been working all day* talk trash about how kobe needs to pass more but remember for every bad shot he takes, there were 3 brilliant passes that his teammates couldn't convert on... and if anyone wants to talk about why the lakers lost to detroit...the problem wasnt kobe, the problem wasnt shaq, nor was the problem the ability of kobe bryant and shaq to co-exist...the problem was the inability of the laker role players to hit or hell, even take, wide open jump shots. this created a sagging detroit defense...go watch some of the game film, a lot of times you would see rasheed wallace sagging off of the pf fronting shaq, or whoever was guarding devean george, payton, etc. were playing halfway between ball and shaq to prevent the front entry pass with big ben playing shaq from behind to prevent the lob over the top... if you watched carefully, you would notice that once the ball was in to Shaq in the post, the majority of the times detroit would leave ben wallace to play shaq one on one...this is why shaq's fg% was so high...detroits defensive structure was keyed around clogging lanes (both driving and passing) and double-teaming shaq to prevent the entry pass...it was an absolutely brilliant defensive game plan that obviously worked... as for kobe, he was not shut down by tayshaun prince, although i do agree that tayshauns length was a great defensive presence against kobe...kobe was constantly running into help D from billups, rip, sheed, and big ben...a lot of the times resulting in a triple team...and like i have said time and time before, without role players being able to take and make wide open shots, kobe was forced into tough offensive situations... stats dont even tell half the story my friends...there is a story behind stats and the reason why stats are hte way they are...kobe shot 38% from the field against detroit...thats true...but look at the kinda shots he was forced to take...and when i say forced, i really do mean forced...other laker players werent able to take or make WIDE OPEN jump shots which clogged lanes and created problems making the entry pass to Shaq (who yes...shot 63% from the field...but once again, against single coverage once he caught the ball in teh post...2 feet away, single coverage...that is what you would expect from shaq)...because larry brown's defensive game plan was to either make the rest of the lakers beat them shooting open jumpers, or for kobe to beat them making ridiculous shots (which he did in game 2)... since you guys are so fond of stats...and wanna criticize kobes 38% vs shaq's 63% (even though i thoroughly explained why that carries no validity)...i'll throw out some stats for you guys to see to emphasize my point that the laker role players, and not kobe or shaq were the problem... Vs Detroit: George: 39% Fisher: 31% SLava: 35% Payton: 32% Kareem: 32% Walton: 38% Malone: 33% Fox: 57% (he only took like 7 shots) Cook: 17% Russell: 0% Kobe's 38% from the field vs double and triple teams doesnt look so bad anymore now does it? considering all these other laker players were shooting without even so much as a hand in their faces...kobe sometimes had 6-8 hands in his face... examine the whole story...if you can't observe the game closely and realize what factors are leading to the statistics you cite to support your arguments, then you don't understand the meaning of these statistics to be using them to begin with... so to sum it up: the other lakers couldnt shoot, kobe was forced to take difficult shots and made a better% than most of his teammates, yes shaq had a great series fg% wise and yes he had very few touches, but this had more to do with his teammates inabilities to shoot wide open jump shots to create the proper inside outside game to open up entry passes to the post...larry browns brilliant defensive scheme exposed the glaring weaknesses that i saw all along in the laker role players and used to that prevent shaq from getting touches...blame larry brown for being a basketball genius and phil jackson for not being able to adapt...not kobe and not shaq...shaq was working hard to get position down low...just no entry pass lanes created... but why were those role players so weak? because spending 3/4 of the salary cap on a single player (no matter how great he is) is going to create financial problems in finding quality role players...end of story...maybe i should change my stance...Shaq's contract, not shaq himself or his play, was the problem...but not kobe.... R
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Oneinpower:</div><div class="quote_post">When Shaq made those arguments about Penny he was about the same age Kobe is now. We don't know what happen with the Lakers when they decided to trade Shaq away. Maybe Kobe said something or not we don't know. but Shaq has been that way since he was here(Cole High School) in SA do you have a problem about now that he is not on your team or what? He ripped David Robinson all the time and you know just like everyone else Dave had always been a very Class Act. please don't hate Shaq now that he is not on your team anymore you should have started to hate him years back.</div> i don't hate shaq because he's on the other team now. i hate him before he even played with the lakers. he talks too much crap. he could be funny sometime but most of the time he talks sh!T.
SCBrian, you summed it all up almost perfectly. I'd just like to add another BIG reason why Kobe's shot selection was so poor, and why the shot clock seemed to drain so quickly: the triangle offense. Gary Payton was clueless...and so was Karl Malone, and with the Mailman playing incorrectly, this threw off Devean George and the other players. Why? Well...picture yourself looking over the court at the Lakers' starting five...Shaq, Malone, George, Kobe, and Payton. I'll give you this situation...Shaq dumps himself into the paint, and Payton brings the ball up court. George, Malone and Kobe are all flushed over to the left, where Payton feeds the ball to Shaq in the paint. Well, at about this time, Payton should be cutting to the hoop, but he doesn't. Damn...mistake #1. This would be an easy pass from Shaq to Payton if he would just make a strong break to the hoop. Instead, he leads his defender to...nowhere. Just pretty much draws him out and waits for a pass. Mistake #2. Because of this, Shaq is forced to pass back out to Payton or wait for the next execution, which should be... Kobe coming off of his screens from Malone and George. However, the Mailman is already preparing to position for the rebound, thinking Shaq will take the ball up. George waits and jogs the perimeter, hoping that Malone will realize that he has to help execute a double screen for Kobe to play off of. Mistake #3. Tayshaun was too quick and skinny for George to set single screens against, and he would switch up or do whatever he needed to get around it. Malone was still hanging around...if he would've just helped in the first place, instead of waiting to increase his rebounding total, Kobe would've had a decent shot. Instead, this happens: Shaq takes a few dribbles, backs in and back out...passes the ball back to Payton. Payton leads his defender to Kobe (WHY?) and waits for Kobe to reposition himself for a three-pointer. However, before Kobe gets to where he needs to be, the shot clock is already down to 6, and Payton is forced to either shoot or...pass to a defended Kobe Bryant, beyond the arc. He thinks (for 2 seconds) and passes to Kobe. He's got 4 seconds to shoot, with no movement down low (Malone and Shaq already expecting the shot and preparing to box out) and Payton fades off by the wing, and Devean George is sitting down (I wouldn't be surprised) behind the three with Kobe...about 5 feet away. Kobe has tons of options...we'll go over these. Pass to Shaq. Isn't this the most logical option of all? He's so dominant, so why not? Well, because Payton's defender (Billups) is waiting for that pass. Also, Wallace is big enough and alot more athletic to steal it before it gets into Shaq's hands. Wasn't Big Ben in the top 3 in steals? Something around there...but for a center, that's unheard of. Hmm...bad option. Pass to George. Do this, and you know it'll be a three point attempt for sure...nothing more. Bad option. Pass to Payton. Why? Look at how his performance has been in the playoffs so far. He's up against the MVP of the Finals...and his first step is easily matched by a stronger and faster Billups. Bad option. Pass to Malone. See Shaq option. Also, Malone takes about 6 seconds to even think about his shot, let alone shooting the ball. Bad option. Drive to the lane HARD. Would be a good idea, except the defense can easily close in on Kobe, with so little time left, and leave Shaq underneath by himself. Kobe has no time to drive and pass, so he'll definitely have to make a shot attempt. Sheed, Ben, and Rip all closing in on Kobe? Not good. Bad option. Shoot a three or quick jumper. The only logical idea...Kobe sees this as one-on-one, not a triple team...and notices Shaq and Malone are already gearing up for the boards. Now this is where the factors hit Kobe hard. He's tired...he's been doing this all game. He's practically the only one on the court moving at all times...and he knows he's going to be the clutch player each time. The pressure to make this shot really hits him hard, and just as he prepares to shoot the ball, Rip and Tay are both on him quickly...leaving George wide open for a three...but too late. It's either good...or no good for Kobe. Now the fun part. For some odd reason, Shaq can't get an offensive rebound if his life depended on it. He's supposedly the most dominant player (or center) in the NBA, so why can't he crash the boards offensively? He doesn't jump...and if he does get the board, he's fouled. Free throw time...where he's one of the worst in the league. Some will argue that it's all Kobe's fault because of his shot selection...but what can he do? He's got a small forward who only wants to shoot threes, a point guard who just wants to drive the ball in against the best defense in the league...a power forward who runs down the clock thinking about a shot, and a center who seems to have lost his ability to move and jump. When Shaq steps out of the paint to avoid the three second call, it's because he slides his foot out of the paint from where he's standing. Watch closely. All summed up, if anyone's to blame, it's Payton and Malone. Someone else? I'll say Shaq, because this offense (triangle) is set up for him to score constantly. It was introduced to the team when Phil came to Los Angeles, and when Kobe was in his third year and beginning to consistently play in the starting five for the first time. Shaq dominated back then, so why not bring an offense that is fairly easy to customize for him? This should've been fixed when bringing in Malone and Payton last year...but it wasn't. If he were to have fixed it before the season started, Malone and Payton would be wearing rings. That's my two cents.
Still all those things you guys just stated are just defending the case of why kobes shot selection is so bad. The original guy who started this thread tried to come off sort of saying shaq was more selfish then kobe. With all the shots attempted by kobe. Along with the ones made. It shows who is the more selfish player between the two. Everyone knows the laker team never got the triangle offense down last year. Basically payton didnt like to run it so that is one of the reasons phil sat him in the fourth and played fisher. The opffense is a difficult one to figure out, that runs through the big man. Though I still believe if the lakers could have gotten the basic down pass it to shaq and wait till he is double teamed then he will pass it to you and you can hit the jumper they would have been more successful. Kobe is a good player, but like so many other good players in the league. AI, tmac, VC at times he has bad shot selections that will cost the team alot of positions up the court and alot of baskets.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Pure Skillz:</div><div class="quote_post">Still all those things you guys just stated are just defending the case of why kobes shot selection is so bad. The original guy who started this thread tried to come off sort of saying shaq was more selfish then kobe. With all the shots attempted by kobe. Along with the ones made. It shows who is the more selfish player between the two. Everyone knows the laker team never got the triangle offense down last year. Basically payton didnt like to run it so that is one of the reasons phil sat him in the fourth and played fisher. The opffense is a difficult one to figure out, that runs through the big man. Though I still believe if the lakers could have gotten the basic down pass it to shaq and wait till he is double teamed then he will pass it to you and you can hit the jumper they would have been more successful. Kobe is a good player, but like so many other good players in the league. AI, tmac, VC at times he has bad shot selections that will cost the team alot of positions up the court and alot of baskets.</div> 1. no his shot attempts do not prove he is more selfish than Shaq...like i said before...Shaq's contract was the reason for the lakers problems and inability to have a team that could runthe triangle offense effectively...we were constantly forced to bring in 1-2 veterans for low vet contracts every year to fill our needs because we had absolutely 0 money to spend and nothing invested in anyone outside of shaq and kobe except for deveans piss poor contract... who is the one that wouldnt let off his contract demands? Shaq...so he is more selfish TO THE TEAM...end of story... you wanna talk about on the court...kobe HAD to take those shots...nobody else could shoot the ball, and the passing lanes to the post were sealed off (can't you read...that long ass post of mine...thats all it talked about) ...so...if you exercise all the options kobe had...he could have passed to one of those lakers that i already showed were shooting like 36% as a collective whole from teh field shooting wide open jump shots...or he could go at it himself shooting 38% taking ridiculously difficult shots that at least somewhat created an opportunity to feed the ball to shaq...kobe was the one that fed shaq most of the time when shaq was able to get the ball and good position...but according to your logic...kobe shouldn't have been shooting...maybe he should have just stood there and let the shot clock expire rather than "forcing" a bad shot...then he wouldn't be so selfish right? brilliant idea...you should become a coach...
i will say it in a nutshell... most "bad" shots by kobe bryant are preferred to wide open jumpers by devean george...and who are you to criticize the way we argued the subject of the thread...we addressed the topics in full...except for the fact that at the end of my post i didn't write...i flat out wrote it was NEITHER shaq nor kobes "selfish play"...i think they both just went out and did what they could and what they had to do...it was the lack of production from the rest of the team...so yes, i did address the issue, and yes my stats said a lot more in backing up my points than yours did... people have accused me left and right of being a biased kobe fanatic...so when i am not arguing against shaq and in kobes favor...only against shaqs contract...dont you think that might say something that just maybe i might be right and neither of them were to blame on the court...i certainly dont blame shaq for what he did on the court for us, he did the best he could...but the end result of the laker team being dismantled was his contract and his contract extension demands...nothing else...not kobe bryant... and the triangle offense was designed to run through a big man in the post? not so much...the lakers triangle offense (which was a completely different offense from the bulls triangle offense...any idiot with 2 eyes should be able to see this on the court) was ADAPTED to run through a big man in the post, and it never worked out quite as well as that of the one the bulls ran...the offense wasnt as good, not the players using it or their ability to execute it in comparison to the bulls...the bulls triangle revolved around 2 outstanding wing players and a big man that could shoot the 15 footer from the elbow...and a lot of rotating backcuts off of this man...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SCBrian:</div><div class="quote_post"> who is the one that wouldnt let off his contract demands? Shaq...so he is more selfish TO THE TEAM...end of story... </div> I am not talking about most selfish player off the court. I am talking about selfish ball hog player on the lakers team. The original point in this thread suggested that shaq was the ball hog because he averaged less assists then kobe. I defended him in that regard that was the point tring to be proven not who was the most selfish laker with contract demands and all that shit. Anyway I would also favor shaq in that regard he is the most dominating player in the game he deserves as much amount of money as he demands the guy did it all for you guys got you three titles. 4 western conference titles. What more can he do.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually around a quarter of Shaq's points came from alley oops.... And it's pretty damn easy to give alley oops to Shaq compared to other big guys. He's the single legit big man that you can alley oop it to fairly regularly and easily. Big, strong, not easy to move Shaq = easy alley oops.</div> you are absolutely right...prolly a little bit less than 1/4...and shaq was averaging about 15 shots per game in the finals...so that would make for about 3-4 lob alley-oops per game... but quick question...who was throwing most of those lobs? i was watching...the only 2 people that were able to throw the lobs into shaq were malone and kobe...and thats because those were the only 2 players that were legitimate threats shooting from the outside...which on occassion, forced ben wallace or rasheed to play shaq single coverage against the entry pass and usually opted to front rather than play from behind...but i'll guarantee you larry brown wouldnt have cared if shaq shot 80% or if he shot the ball everytime he caught it so long as the pistons were able to limit his touches to like 16-17 per game...and yes...the pistons limited his touches, not kobe...and i wont get into the reason why they were able to limit his touches again, refer to my long ass post if you wanna know why...
