This thread is a spin off from the thread about Kobe Bryant. What has this NBA Finals done to your opinion of the "Zen Master" Phil Jackson? To me, I think it shows his weaknesses and stubbornness as a coach. I mean he's won 9 NBA titles, sure..but on all of his NBA Finals teams he possessed MJ & Scottie Pippen (6 of them) and Shaquille O'Neal & Kobe Bryant..probably two of the top three of four greatest duos in NBA history. I think it just put into perspective how much of a player's league the NBA has become in the last 15-20 years. But Phil Jackson's rotations and substitutions were extremely questionable. He didn't make the adjustments necessary to put LA over the top. He left Trevor Ariza, a pretty good defender on the bench in favor of other crappy players. My honest opinion..if the Lakers got out of the triangle more often and ran more set plays they would have had a better chance. Thibodeau coached teams have absolutely dominated PJ's triangle offense in the past few years. Early in the series, whenever LA would run plays that involved ball movement/swinging the Celtics were caught completely off guard. The triangle is just so predictable and I think if the Triangle is Superman, Thibodeau defenses are it's kryptonite.
I guess, but the fact that he got so close without his young star center Bynum I think truly shows how great of a coach he truly is.
It really doesn't change my opinion of him much. The 07-08 Celtics are one of the best defensive teams in recent memory, they really gave the Lakers players' a lot of problems especially the soft frontline duo of Gasol and Odom. IMO this loss was more on the Lakers' players than Phil. They blew that big lead in game 4, they almost blew the lead in game 5, got the sh*t beat out of them in game 6. Again, Gasol, Odom, Sasha, etc. were soft in this series and were even whining about how physical the Celtics were. That right there is a good indicator of who will win a finals series. Not to mention the Lakers haven't been known as a good defensive team this year at all (if Sasha Vujacic is your best defender outside of Kobe you have big time problems). It'll be interesting to see if these two teams go back to the finals but Bynum is healthy. He'd be manhandling Perkins and KG down there whilst Odom and Gasol are dancing around like pansies averaging 20 ppg.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jun 18 2008, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It really doesn't change my opinion of him much. The 07-08 Celtics are one of the best defensive teams in recent memory, they really gave the Lakers players' a lot of problems especially the soft frontline duo of Gasol and Odom. IMO this loss was more on the Lakers' players than Phil. They blew that big lead in game 4, they almost blew the lead in game 5, got the sh*t beat out of them in game 6. Again, Gasol, Odom, Sasha, etc. were soft in this series and were even whining about how physical the Celtics were. That right there is a good indicator of who will win a finals series. Not to mention the Lakers haven't been known as a good defensive team this year at all (if Sasha Vujacic is your best defender outside of Kobe you have big time problems). It'll be interesting to see if these two teams go back to the finals but Bynum is healthy. He'd be manhandling Perkins and KG down there whilst Odom and Gasol are dancing around like pansies averaging 20 ppg.</div> I hate to play devil's advocate but if the Lakers were able to win this series in six rather than the Celtics would it be accredited to Phil Jackson for being a "great coach and leader"? You said it wasn't his fault that the players lost and got crushed so badly. It was the players fault. But doesn't that prove the point that I'm making? It's become a player's game ever since Jordan entered the league and the coaches really aren't as important at this stage, the NBA Finals. What makes a great coach is the way they are able to manage their teams throughout the season to get them to this point. But it's really on the players at this point. I mean..Doc Rivers is the coach of the NBA champions. Doesn't that say it all? He's not even close to a great X's and O's coach. He was able to manage the team and keep their spirits up to get to this point and it's on the players to play and hit shots.
I will say this before this series I always give Phil credit for not doing things to beat his team........but he absolutely failed at that this series. I thought he was much too relaxed in game 4 when the celtics were making a run, I thought his substitutions were bad (fisher and odom should've saw more time in game 4 down the stretch), and the mistake of not even attempting to put Odom on Pierce was semi-idiotic. Personally I don't believe in the term "great" coach for various reasons, but Phil was simply outcoached and outsmarted by Doc Rivers in this series.................
If they had won, he would be credited so much. (as well as Kobe) But with the loss, the players take the blame. I've said it all along though, Phil is not the best coach in the game, maybe top 10 ever, but not the best. And remember that his championship teams included MJ, Shaq, Kobe. Thats the #1 and 2 best players ever, and Shaq, the most dominant player/force to ever play the game (physically, rebounding, defense, etc). All the other coaches, had great players no doubt, but they don't come close to what Phil has had.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Jun 18 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If they had won, he would be credited so much. (as well as Kobe) But with the loss, the players take the blame. I've said it all along though, Phil is not the best coach in the game, maybe top 10 ever, but not the best. And remember that his championship teams included MJ, Shaq, Kobe. Thats the #1 and 2 best players ever, and Shaq, the most dominant player/force to ever play the game (physically, rebounding, defense, etc). All the other coaches, had great players no doubt, but they don't come close to what Phil has had.</div> Well Red had an assortment of hall of famers
when it comes to X's and O's and actually coaching Popovich and Sloan are the best I've seen in my years of watching ball.....Chuck Daley deserves some mention also...... Rudy T - was a good coach for a veteran team, because he'd just relax and let them do whatever, because they already knew what to do. Plus there was nothing genius about throwing the ball to hakeem and getting the hell out the way Phil Jackson - good with vets (kinda similar to rudy), I think the Triangle has always been overrated seeing as how it wasn't the reason for any of his titles. Get the ball to MJ/Shaq/Kobe and get the hell out the way.......is what it came down to Pat Riley - great motivator, but not a great X's and O's guy.....he's also always seemed kinda flakey imo, haha
It always amazes me that no matter what kind of crazy personalities he has on his team, he gets them to play a system no one else uses anywhere and they all play together. I think he is like a wizard or a witch doctor or something.
Play, responding to your original post about Jackson's stubborness- IMO he did the right thing by sticking with his guns. Thats his philosophy, its won him several championships as it is and its all hes been preaching for most of his career as coach. You can't change it in the finals. Hes always been extremely calm under pressure, hes always maintained the same substitution patterns every game, hes always run the triangle, etc. Why change in the finals? Why change anything if you're Phil Jackson? What kind of coach makes his life out of a certain set of philosophies then changes them when it all matters? The Lakers just got beat by a more physical, better defensive team. The Celtics definitely had them figured out and they manhandled all those soft Lakers players. The more physical team pretty much always wins in the finals. And I used to be in the same boat as the rest of you saying Phil wasn't as good of a coach as he's cracked up to be but in recent years I've really seen his value. Yeah, hes had most of the best players in NBA history but a lot of his coaching is managing personalities, getting role players who are otherwise pretty crappy and turn them into useful players who are fantastic in the triangle, etc. Shaq and Jordan were the best players in the past 20 years but Jordan never won a ring without Phil and Shaq one one other ring without Phil and that was under another HOF coach in Pat Riley. These were the most dominant players maybe in league history and yet never won jack without Phil. Why couldn't the other random coaches these guys played under lead them to championships if the game is all about players and having the best, most dominating players? Its a good time to jump on Phil for losing a finals series but it doesn't diminish him much in my eyes. The players do have a lot to do with who wins for sure but coaching is very important in the NBA. The Celtics are just an amazing defensive team and set the tone for physicality in the series.
The triangle has proven to work against man and zone defenses. It's designed to accentuate the players' best individual skills while making weaker players play better overall. I'm convinced that all the inspirational things the PJax could do wouldn't make Gasol play stronger D or be more aggressive at both ends of the court. A big difference I see in these current Lakers and the old time Bulls' championships is that Kobe plays like a PG (top of the key) while Jordan played on the block and let the point guard, Pippen, run the offense. I don't think these Lakers have anyone else to play the Pippen role. Kobe played the Pippen role in the Shaq era, but again, you had Shaq as the featured player / primary offense (Jordan role). It also looked like Kobe hardly trusted his teammates in the final game. If the Celtics have 3 to 5 guys clogging the lane and collapsing on Kobe (or chasing him at the perimeter), then someone has to be open.
I don't blame Kobe not trusting his teammates based on the crap they pulled throughout the series As for Phil, well, I don't have much to say. I don't care what he did in the past, but he was horrible in this year's Finals. Did he even make one adjustment the entire series? He got outcoached by Doc Rivers, plain and simple. Some of Phil's lineups were just mind boggling. I wouldn't mind him doing this crap in the regular season, but in the Finals? Come on...
I blame Mitch for signing Vlad, and extending Luke to a huge, ugly contract. What the hell was he thinking? Imagine who you could've gotten instead...
