Rose-Thabo starting backcourt

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by dtay, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. dtay

    dtay formely NaKz

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  2. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Wow. Stunning.

    Worth a shot I guess. Better than starting the 0 upside and ineffective Hinrich.

    Also, its a great formal statement of the turning the page of the Hinrich era.

    Finally "the right way" is over. A failed experiment. Now Hinrich is just a bad contract on the bench. If he complains you can give him the TT treatment.

    I'm all for having a normal sized SG and if Thabo can develop into an average NBA SG who is very strong on D I'd be happy with Rose, Gordon and Thabo going forward.
     
  3. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Just remember: there's no "I" in "team." But there is one in "WIN"
     
  4. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    Whoa. If I had to make odds, I would have given a Thabo-Rose backcourt about 10-1 or so.

    Is Noc going to start too? If not, then who's going to shoot? I'm guessing that Tyrus is going to start with Drew Gooden. Thabo-Deng-Thomas seems kind of funky to me at the 2-3-4. My guess is that Thabo plays at the beginning of the first and third quarters and then doesn't come in for the rest of the game. Does anyone see anything different?

    I haven't watched any preseason games, how has Thabo looked? From the boxscore he's been a mixed bag. Has his stroke improved at all? That to me seems like the lynch pin. If Thabo can stick open jumpers then I guess the move makes sense, if not, then I have a hard time seeing the team being anything but awkward offensively coming out of the gate.
     
  5. MikeDC

    MikeDC Member

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    That's my thinking too. Thabo + Deng = Defenses collapsing on a weaponless Rose. I don't understand the thinking here in the least.

    And no, Thabo hasn't exactly looked good in the pre-season. As best I can tell, he's been the least effective out of all our guards. Like I said, I don't get it.
     
  6. MikeDC

    MikeDC Member

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    Finally! You feeling good now? :)

    Blech... Thabo has a ways to go to be the player that either Hinrich or Gordon is. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but you can pick any guy of Thabo's general size and athleticism (the NBA is full of them) and say they might develop into an average NBA SG with strong D. So far, he's below average and plays average D.
     
  7. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Yup. Its like a dark cloud is lifted. We're no longer in a bizzarro NBA land.



    I'm not a big Thabo fan by any stretch and I think that Hinrich and Thabo were both pretty bad last season. I don't think he'll be anything but an average NBA guard and would be the 3rd or 4th guard on the team if it were up to me. I think Gordon should be starting. Last season Hinrich got lit up by 2s and didn't shoot well, but did an OK job of creating for others. Thabo is bigger, defends 2s better and crashes the boards better but lacks any semblance of PG type skills that I can see.... and also doesn't shoot well. Of the two, I'd rather have the Thabo skill set as my backup 2 than then Hinrich skill set assuming they are both average NBA players.
     
  8. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Rose-Thabo worked fine last night. I think it goes along with Del Negro's emphasis on going to the rim. And if Deng gets his shot back, that is plenty of shooting for the first 5-10 minutes of the game. You shouldn't be settling for jumpshots at that point anyway. Rose can beat anybody off of the dribble and has a shoot first mentality. Thabo plays tough D and picks up the inevitable 2 fouls that Hinrich used to always get. Then you bring in Hinrich and you don't lose much on D, pick up some shooting and maintain the continuity of the offense when BG comes in to replace Rose for a breather. A Hinrich-BG starting backcourt was pretty mediocre, but it's a pretty strong second team.
     
  9. MikeDC

    MikeDC Member

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    Meh, I think there's plenty of weirdness still out there in Bulls land. Through one game, VDN seems to be making a pretty sensible go of things, but it's only one game. Up to it, the love for Thabo, Kirk, and Aaron Gray, and all the BG toe weirdness was seriously scaring me.

    I'm cautiously optimistic that the Gordon will be starting after a few more practices and games.

    Kirk needs to play well so we can trade him. I actually think he's just as good a defender as Thabo, not because Kirk is that great anymore, but because I don't think Thabo is any more than average. So we keep Kirk out there and find a good deal to make him and the Bulls better off.
     
  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I think Thabo started only because Hughes wasn't available. It's just a guess.
     
  11. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    I did the Michael Redd scoring watch last night.

    Thabo Sefolosha - 13
    Kirk Hinrich - 9
    Ben Gordon - 7
    None - 1 (Technical Foul)

    If you watched Gordon, you could see him doing a lot of the same things Kirk does on defense. There were some times that Gordon played great defense and Redd was able to just shoot over him. You have to live with that. But Gordon's defense was very good on Redd last night, and I thought Hinrich's was too. Nothing spectacular, but Redd would have been around 22 PPG if those two guarded him the entire game instead of Thabo, which is around his average. Thabo just got burned by Redd. Redd had like 9 points in 3 minutes on Thabo in the 2nd half.
     
  12. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    BG is never going to be able to guard Redd, so you shouldn't worry about it. The problem was in the first half when BG made Tyrone Lue and Ridnour look good. That's the problem. I'll be a little surprised if BG is starting and there aren't significant injuries. BG's problem is still the same, if he isn't scoring 3pts/minute like he was in the second half, he's hurting the bulls more than he's helping. And on the flipside, when he is, he is devastating. Rose will very soon be a more effective all-around offensive player, and already seems to be better defensively. So he needs the weaker backcourt matchup so he can spy and cheat on defense. Playing BG next to him doesn't afford him that opportunity.
     
  13. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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  14. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    I don't think Gordon did a terrible job on Lue/Ridnour. He got beat a few times, but I would have to imagine that our defense plans for our defenders to get beat from time to time, and plans for the primary defender to run that player into some help defense.

    On the game, 7 points (3-7 FG) 4 assists 5 turnovers for Ridnour and 6 points (2-6 FG) 5 assists for Tyronn Lue.

    Not exactly horrible.

    Luke Ridnour had 4 points and 1 assist on Rose in Rose's first stint of the game. Lue then had 4 points 2 assists in Gordon's sting guarding him. Then 2 more points on Rose. Then Ridnour came back in an had 1 point and 2 assists on Rose.

    Then in the 2nd half, Ridnour had 2 points on Rose in his initial stint. Then Lue, Gordon, and Hinrich came back in the game. Lue had 3 assists on Gordon and that was it.

    It's hard to try to deal blame on anyone for the way they guarded the point guards tonight. Seemed like everyone got the job done on that front.
     
  15. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Yah, I agree, but the 1st game was a step in the right direction.

    I agree about the love for guys like Gray, Hinrich and Thabo. I was happy to see that Gray got 0 minutes, and Thabo only got 12 minutes even while starting. Hinrich and Gordon were both playing better than him off the bench and Del Negro adapted. Hinrich was benched. BENCHED!

    And Derrick Rose was announced last and will continue to be even if Hinrich rejoins the starting lineup. This to me is a great symbolic step in the right direction. Derrick Rose (and the superstar he's expected to become) is the embodiment of Bulls basketball... our champion... not the average Hinrich. Talent over jib. To me this is a HUGE step towards NBA sanity.

    Only one game and we'll likely get throttled against the Celtics tonite, but I was pretty happy leaving the UC for the home opener (and its been a while since I thought that). And if they make sure to get Gordon 25-30 minutes a game, even if they are not starting him, I can live with that. Just make sure not to lose him and get the most out of him. (that being said, i still think he should be starting). And yah, I still don't really get the whole toe thing.

    And the other big step in the right direction was 40+ minutes and an effective game for Tyrus. Perhaps this coaching staff can maximize his value. Skiles had his skill set, but developing young, talent-laden but not gritty/gutty/rahrah/college types was not his strong suit. If these guys can groom TT into what I think he can be and develop Rose as well, while putting the other guys in their proper roles, we could be going somewhere more positive.

    Not just selling out chances at greatness to accept mediocrity (500 ish gritty / gutty play with little upside).
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2008
  16. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    What I appreciated/liked about Del Negro's rotation is that he stuck with Gordon when he wasn't hot. A guy like Gordon might look bad for an early stretch of the game, even 3 quarters, yet catch fire in Q4 and pour in a lot of points. The thing is, you have to stick with him knowing what he can do. His off nights in the past are ones I attribute to a quick hook, something Vinnie doesn't seem to subscribe to.

    Oddly, Hinrich started out hot and poured in 15 early points along with his typical share of assists. Yet his +/- for that part of the game was deeply in the red. We saw the familiar Hinrich/Gordon back court for extended minutes as well, and that was a big part of the turnaround. I'm happy to see Hinrich did perform so well, and he's adjusting to a new role so he deserves a lot of slack from me.
     
  17. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    Agreed. If you have Gordon on your team, he plays the entire fourth no matter what. Boylan didn't understand this, and Skiles went away from this at the end for some reason.
     
  18. MikeDC

    MikeDC Member

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    I always thought it was pretty clear someone up top didn't want Gordon starting. The beat writers that are generally the biggest organizational shills were practically screaming for it last year before Skiles got the axe, and yet Skiles kept starting him.

    The moment Skiles was gone, Gordon went to the bench. That, along with a variety of statements along the way, suggests whomever the coah is, is probably under some pressure not to start him.

    I'd like to see him start, but I also think Del Negro did a heck of a job with the rotation the other night. Everyone played more or less the right amount, and the subs came in more or less reasonable places. The Bulls also moved all over the floor offensively and the defense did some really smart things. Gooden, in particular, did a fantastic job dealing with Bogut, which I thought going in would be a bad matchup for us.
     
  19. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    I don't have my own secret formula for how our rotation should look, but the one against the Bucks struck me as pretty sensible.

    The move to start Thabo is still curious to me. I thought bullshooter's comment on it earlier in the thread was throught provoking, and provided the best rationale for it so far.

    Another explanation for it might be that VDN still considers a Hinrich-Gordon backcourt to have value, since they're the most experienced, are accustomed to the NBA game, and are used to playing together. Since Kirk doesn't seem to play well next to Rose and appeared to be better off coming from the bench, BG was still recovering from injury, and VDN seems to be enthusiastic about Thabo's talent, so bringing the two guys off the bench while starting Thabo but only playing him small amounts of time seemed like the best approach.
     

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