Thread: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

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  1. TOP #51
    Ed O is becoming well known Ed O is becoming well known Ed O is becoming well known Ed O is becoming well known Ed O's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    Honestly, I think he started that thread for the same reason I started this one - there appeared to be no public accounting about some actions that had upset and frustrated a majority of the core Nets community here (despite the insistance of the site higher-ups that "the subject has been publicly discussed").

    In fact, I started this thread in REACTION to Tim's thread being closed. Even if you believe his actions were in bad faith, they inspired me to do basically the same thing, and I think the result has been good for the site.
    But did you know the answer before you started this thread? Are you chatting with the banned members?

    Notice that no one is accusing you of stirring things up.

    Ed O.

  2. TOP #52
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    I think you're kind of giving the game away here, Ed. The issue isn't so much that a suicide-pact agreement isn't enforceable - it's that a lot of us feel that it shouldn't have happened in the first place.
    Why is it your business?

    I mean, really. Why is it your business what deals are made between other people? Why is it your business whether a friend is willing to put his ass on the line for another friend?

    I totally disagree that it reflects poorly on any party involved. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. Neither of us, of course, run this site so our opinions aren't terribly relevant.

    Ed O.

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed O View Post
    But did you know the answer before you started this thread? Are you chatting with the banned members?
    When I started the thread, no. But we've got to distinguish here between the post and the poster. It doesn't really matter what I know. What does matter is whether there's a public accounting of this stuff on the site. There wasn't, and now there is at least a start.

    FWIW, I have started chatting with some of the banned members, trying to get a handle on both sides of the story. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's one thing to say that you don't want some members posting on your bulletin board anymore; it's quite another to say that anyone associating with them in any capacity has no right to ask any question.

    I think it would be a shame if contact with them would require that this thread immediately be closed and hidden away.
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

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  4. TOP #54
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by DaRizzle View Post
    Thats a big part of the reason the POR posters moved here...because they WANTED to be in their little cliques. They started getting shit for using their OT forum to discuss all types of topics, 90% political. Then they started getting shit for it when they started getting in heated discussions with one another. Mods said no more political threads there, only in the PE forum. They didnt like that, which I understand because they know each other as well as you can without meeting (which a lot actually have). They for the most part dont care about some randoms opinion no matter how good/interesting it is, which is fine by me.
    I'd just like to add that this is something I've learned since our experiment with the Nets forum and its something I think the entire staff has kept in mind for the future. I was on board with ghoti, as somebody who thought we should make an effort to put threads in the right place and integrate Nets posters with the rest of the community. And I still agree with that in principle. But I no longer see that as a practical approach, with too many posters being just naturally averse to such heavy-handedness.

    That's fine. As a staff, we're fallible. We made what turned out to be a mistake and learned from it the next time we had to deal with a big migrating board. Some people took that as a blatant double-standard, when it was just us refusing to make the same mistake twice. The reality is that we've treated the Nets board since that failed experiment just as we've treated the Blazers board, and every other board for that matter.

  5. TOP #55
    ly_yng is developing a reputation ly_yng's Avatar Part of the Rotation
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed O View Post
    Why is it your business?

    I mean, really. Why is it your business what deals are made between other people? Why is it your business whether a friend is willing to put his ass on the line for another friend?

    I totally disagree that it reflects poorly on any party involved. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. Neither of us, of course, run this site so our opinions aren't terribly relevant.

    Ed O.
    SportsTwo Forums > SportsTwo > Feedback

    I'd assume that the existence of a feedback forum would imply that our opinions are, in fact, relevant. Why else have a feedback forum?
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

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  6. TOP #56
    Ed O is becoming well known Ed O is becoming well known Ed O is becoming well known Ed O is becoming well known Ed O's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    When I started the thread, no. But we've got to distinguish here between the post and the poster. It doesn't really matter what I know.
    It does matter. It matters if the Admins are going to be taking criticism for shutting down the thread that was started by someone who (a) knew the story, and (b) has a rival site that might be improved by his rabble rousing over here.

    Ed O.

  7. TOP #57
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    SportsTwo Forums > SportsTwo > Feedback

    I'd assume that the existence of a feedback forum would imply that our opinions are, in fact, relevant. Why else have a feedback forum?
    I certainly can't speak for the Admins (I'm just a Blazers mod) but there's a clear reason for a feedback forum, even if opinions are regularly ignored (which I'm NOT saying is the case here): Fair Process.

    Fair Process, in case you don't know, is a management technique where employees get a chance to give input and feedback without any guarantee that the feedback and input will be implemented. It has a soothing psychological effect on employees. It might (occasionally) might result in a good idea, but the letting off of steam is the primary purpose of Fair Process.

    With all of that said, maybe my use of the word "relevant" was incorrect. Our opinions are controlling. We don't make the final decisions. The Admins decide.

    Ed O.

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    MikeDC is developing a reputation MikeDC's Avatar Member
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Денг Гордон View Post
    I don't understand saying that Tim isn't posting with an honorable intent just because he is a moderator at another board. If it serves my memory correctly, the makers of this site were concurrently serving as administrators or community moderators at other sites.
    Right. And we disclosed to the owners of that other board what we were doing starting S2. And we never went over there and complained about things after our association with them with them was over.

    We did our job their to the best of their abilities, and we had the common sense to recognize that we'd look like idiots or jerks or both if we went over their complaining and criticizing at the direction of things there. Even if we did have the best intentions in saying something, it'd come off as lame, transparent and self-serving.

    To this day, I consider the main guys over at BBF (like truebluefan) friends. But even if I didn't, I'd have more respect for myself than to leave that place and then come back skulking around and casting aspersions about the "direction" of the site and other nonsense when I had an obvious axe to grind and an obvious interest in another site.

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    MikeDC is developing a reputation MikeDC's Avatar Member
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    To cut you off at the pass, I understand that War Poet did some other stuff that the modding staff considered bannable. Point taken. But this isn't really about the enforcement of the suicide-pact, it's that it existed in the first place.
    I wasn't party to the whole agreement thing, but let me offer that sometimes agreements like that aren't made to be enforced. They're made to hopefully never have to be enforced. Now, you might rightly question the wisdom of that, but I'll say for my part that I'd strenuously object to actually banning a mod simply based on such an agreement.

  10. TOP #60
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by M Two One View Post
    <br><br><br><br>

    <br><br><br><br>
    Edit: Resolved
    Last edited by Jurassic; 12-23-2008 at 05:28 PM.

    <font size=""2"">Props to GMJigga on the Sig
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Please, don't even compare Mo Pete to Kobe.</div>

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDC View Post
    I wasn't party to the whole agreement thing, but let me offer that sometimes agreements like that aren't made to be enforced. They're made to hopefully never have to be enforced. Now, you might rightly question the wisdom of that, but I'll say for my part that I'd strenuously object to actually banning a mod simply based on such an agreement.
    Fair enough - I can respect that, although from all indications it sounds as if it were at least used as a supporting piece of evidence, which I'd still consider beyond the pale.
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
    Well, it speaks to intent. You are here as an honorable poster asking fair questions, and you're getting straight answers. You haven't come close to proving otherwise.
    I'm starting to get the feeling that a lot of this whole situation has stemmed from the modding community's belief that it can infer the intent of its posters. The idea that certain posters are "honorable" and others are not I think is a really harmful and really dangerous idea.

    Talking (in private) with some of the banned members, and some others who are frustrated, I can tell you one thing for sure - their intent was never, ever to bring down the board as a whole. No-one wants to spite this site, or this community. Their anger and frustration seem, to me very clearly, to be aimed at the modding and administrative leadership of this site. Now, I'm not saying that certain posters or the community at large weren't hurt as collateral damage. I think they absolutely were hurt by the actions of these posters, and I think that their actions were wrong. But you're here talking about the intent of posters, and you're judging them on what you PERCEIVE as their intentions, not their ACTUAL intentions.

    Now, this is no great failing on your part or the part of the site leadership - it's incredibly hard to really understand the intentions of anyone, ESPECIALLY someone you have an adversarial relationship with. What I think it is, however, is a damning critique of trying to police intent, rather than policing actions.

    With that said, I have a hard time seeing how the punishments dealt out (permanent bans) match the harm done. If the posters truly did have a malicious intent towards the site, I think the punishment would make sense, but that is simply not the case.
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

    <span style="color:#0000FF">Free Paco</span>

  13. TOP #63
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    I'm starting to get the feeling that a lot of this whole situation has stemmed from the modding community's belief that it can infer the intent of its posters. The idea that certain posters are "honorable" and others are not I think is a really harmful and really dangerous idea.

    Talking (in private) with some of the banned members, and some others who are frustrated, I can tell you one thing for sure - their intent was never, ever to bring down the board as a whole. No-one wants to spite this site, or this community. Their anger and frustration seem, to me very clearly, to be aimed at the modding and administrative leadership of this site. Now, I'm not saying that certain posters or the community at large weren't hurt as collateral damage. I think they absolutely were hurt by the actions of these posters, and I think that their actions were wrong. But you're here talking about the intent of posters, and you're judging them on what you PERCEIVE as their intentions, not their ACTUAL intentions.

    Now, this is no great failing on your part or the part of the site leadership - it's incredibly hard to really understand the intentions of anyone, ESPECIALLY someone you have an adversarial relationship with. What I think it is, however, is a damning critique of trying to police intent, rather than policing actions.

    With that said, I have a hard time seeing how the punishments dealt out (permanent bans) match the harm done. If the posters truly did have a malicious intent towards the site, I think the punishment would make sense, but that is simply not the case.
    It's a lot simpler than you make it out to be. We assume all posters have the best of intentions, and it does take a lot of real actions to convince us otherwise. And I think that's right because it shows in just how few bans we make. In fact, we went overboard in trying to convince ourselves that these posters' intent was honorable and gave them a significant amount of time to prove it.

    There is no "gut" feeling about any of this involved. We have tools to check peoples' IP addresses and can see if someone is using a 2nd name to stalk another person. We can look at posting history and see if a person has a bad day but otherwise has been perfectly fine - and we shine that on. Patterns emerge from what we see in front of our faces, like posts outright calling an entire forum of posters assholes. There are other patterns, like exchanges of PMs and AIM conversations where we try to reason with a person who we don't want to make trouble for or want trouble from, and how those people respond afterward.

    Or patterns of the same 3 or 4 or 5 posters making the experience here far less fun for numerous other people. You only have to look at some of those types of threads, where they're posted, and scroll down the page and see who's making the posts. A very few people intent on ruining the fun for everyone can really succeed at it.

    Maybe you want to define that as perception, but I would say the perception only causes us to start using those tools at our disposal to figure out what really is going on.

    And I would conclude by pointing out that actions speak louder than words. When a person claims to have honorable intentions but actually does malicious things to the site, I don't see how any reasonable person would belive the claims.
    You hear the one about the fella who died, went to the pearly gates? St. Peter lets him in. Sees a guy in a suit making a closing argument. Says 'Who's that?' St. Peter says, 'Oh, that's God. Thinks he's Denny Crane.


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  14. TOP #64

    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by DaRizzle View Post
    Oh I think you exactly what that is "King of Pictures"123
    Honestly, I really didn't know what it is. I already figured it out, just did a Google search. Thanks for the new nickname.

  15. TOP #65
    ly_yng is developing a reputation ly_yng's Avatar Part of the Rotation
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
    Show respect to the posters you may not in fact respect. It's pretty clear. This covers things like stalking another poster, personal insults and that sort of thing. The rules are intended to be clear that WE (S2, staff) desire to respect every poster who is honorable.

    "Honorable" means to participate as a good "actor" among all the people who make up S2, intent being to be a member of the community vs. posting spam (shoes/meds/site URLs) or otherwise purposefully stirring up shit.
    As for the rules... They're deliberately vague. No matter how we'd write them, people intent on stirring up shit will say "but the rule against X doesn't preclude Y so I'm technically not breaking the rules!" If we add Y to the rules, then these people figure out a Z and play the same game. It's not the rules per se that matter, but the spirit of them that do. And you'd be amazed at how people figure out Z - using the tags on threads, or posting on peoples' member pages, or using rep (but it only says no tagging or member pages, nothing about rep so I'm not breaking the rules!).

    You talk about "stirring up shit" being vague, too. Well, it speaks to intent. You are here as an honorable poster asking fair questions, and you're getting straight answers. You haven't come close to proving otherwise.
    We assume all posters have the best of intentions, and it does take a lot of real actions to convince us otherwise. In fact, we went overboard in trying to convince ourselves that these posters' intent was honorable and gave them a significant amount of time to prove it.

    ...

    When a person claims to have honorable intentions but actually does malicious things to the site, I don't see how any reasonable person would belive the claims.
    I'll admit, I'm confused by your use of the phrase "honorable intentions." I don't know what that means. Apparently, you're not honorable if you're stirring up shit, unless you're me. In that case, because I'm honorable, I'm allowed to stir up shit.

    As far as I can tell, "honorable" is an adjective to describe you use to describe a poster you think is good for the site. And "dishonorable" is an adjective you use to describe a poster you don't think is good for the site.

    Is that unfair?
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

    <span style="color:#0000FF">Free Paco</span>

  16. TOP #66
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    "Honorable" means to participate as a good "actor" among all the people who make up S2, intent being to be a member of the community vs. posting spam (shoes/meds/site URLs) or otherwise purposefully stirring up shit.

    Asked and answered.
    You hear the one about the fella who died, went to the pearly gates? St. Peter lets him in. Sees a guy in a suit making a closing argument. Says 'Who's that?' St. Peter says, 'Oh, that's God. Thinks he's Denny Crane.


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  17. TOP #67
    ly_yng is developing a reputation ly_yng's Avatar Part of the Rotation
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
    There is no "gut" feeling about any of this involved. We have tools to check peoples' IP addresses and can see if someone is using a 2nd name to stalk another person. We can look at posting history and see if a person has a bad day but otherwise has been perfectly fine - and we shine that on. Patterns emerge from what we see in front of our faces, like posts outright calling an entire forum of posters assholes. There are other patterns, like exchanges of PMs and AIM conversations where we try to reason with a person who we don't want to make trouble for or want trouble from, and how those people respond afterward.

    Or patterns of the same 3 or 4 or 5 posters making the experience here far less fun for numerous other people. You only have to look at some of those types of threads, where they're posted, and scroll down the page and see who's making the posts. A very few people intent on ruining the fun for everyone can really succeed at it.
    So, from talking with the banned posters, they are under the impression that "what they did wrong," that is, the reason for their banning, essentially comes down to two threads:

    1) This one: http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131026

    2) And this one: http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131216

    Thread 1 was a case of GMJ going in and basically baiting the Blazers forum, but in fairness the Blazers forum baited him right back. But yeah, he went in looking for a fight, which isn't cool, but is totally his right as a poster on this board. I don't know the details exactly, but it seems like he called someone an asshole. I mean, is that it? I guess peg called the whole board assholes, which also isn't very nice, but I don't really see it as a ban-able offense in its own right. Certainly, it should be censored out, and he should be warned, and probably advised to stay off the Blazers board if he can't help but pick a fight, but (for either of them) a total ban without any discussion of explanation seems extreme.

    Thread 2 seems to be a bunch of friends joking around with each other. I don't know what happened, but I think it's a bit extreme to even say it harmed the site.

    Now, is that it? Are those threads the reasons War Poet, peg, GMJ and KC got banned? Or was there something else I'm not aware of?
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

    <span style="color:#0000FF">Free Paco</span>

  18. TOP #68
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Asked and answered. I think we're done, as I've already stated we're not going to put them on trial here for all their actions.
    You hear the one about the fella who died, went to the pearly gates? St. Peter lets him in. Sees a guy in a suit making a closing argument. Says 'Who's that?' St. Peter says, 'Oh, that's God. Thinks he's Denny Crane.


    When you say my name, say it like you really mean it!
    Check out my blog here
    R.I.P. MGB - you will be missed

  19. TOP #69
    ly_yng is developing a reputation ly_yng's Avatar Part of the Rotation
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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    The main reason I ask is that the banned posters are confused as to why they were banned. It is not "clear" or "obvious" to them. Pegs banning seems defensible and GMJ's seems extreme, but Kid Chocolate's and War_Poet's (to them) literally seem like they've come out of nowhere.

    KC (as far as I know) really didn't do anything wrong except start a satirical thread - War_Poet seems to have been unceremoniously dumped for messing around with his mod powers in that thread (all for harmless fun). None of the posters are exactly sure what they did wrong, or how all of this could have been avoided. There were no warnings given, nothing. They were just dumped, like Trotsky with a pick-axe in his eye.

    You said you didn't want a trial because it would be unfair to the posters who couldn't defend themselves. Well, they can't defend themselves and they STILL would like a trial, if only to get a handle on what happened. Because they don't know. No-one seems to know, except for you and Mike. And right now, I've got YOUR word, that these posters were SUCH a detriment to the site that not only did they NEED to be banned IMMEDIATELY, but that they could be exiled without so much as an explanation or reason, vs. THEIR word, which not only jives with my half-decade of experience with these posters, but also with the only evidence I've been able to find.

    From the outside, it really does appear like you just kicked out some people you and Mike didn't like. That's not just my view, it's the view of a lot of other posters on the Nets board, including some real pillars of the community. If that's how you want to leave things, that's your prerogative - you can run this site how you like. But don't be surprised if the Nets board is a barren, unlinked-to wasteland in a short manner of time.

    With that said, I don't think it's too late to repair things. But if you're going to, you need to check in with reality, fast.
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

    <span style="color:#0000FF">Free Paco</span>

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Interesting that both of the threads are people saying they're back and GMJ is either being an arsehole or trying to help the site by basically saying, stop clogging it up with stuff that we really don't need, and I've really gotta agree with him on 2 points
    1. "I'm back every (pretend to) be happy" threads are pointless and add nothing to the boards.
    2.
    Quote Originally Posted by GMJ View Post
    Great that people who follow the blazers know who he is, but no one else on the site does, and it's the rest of the site that sees blazer threads pop up when they check recent posts: you guys are inclusive with the rest of the site...sorry to break it too you.
    I think the fact that the Nets and Trailblazers (among other teams?) have there own OT sections hurts the site a lot, because from the looks of things, these teams have some pretty good posters who would be good on the rest of the site, and they're not helping themselves, if they ever need help like life/computer problems or more trivial things like recommending video games and movies, because let's face it, the whole site has more members than the nets/jailblazers (lol!) sections. And Ly, it would be nice if you'd stop pretending that the Nets board is the only one that's suffered, this bit: "it's the view of a lot of other posters on the Nets board," the whole damn site is losing out here, not just a bunch of basketball fans. But, reading back to one of Denny's first posts here, he said we didn't have rules, I agree with that, we shouldn't need them, we're all adults here (most of us are anyway, a few of the DYC gang (if Ly can do it, so can I) aren't, but they act more mature than some adults around here, so let's just assume we are) anyway, all adults here, I'm sure we can all act our age, so really what is the point in having rules, which are apparently made to be broken. Frankly it shows how far people can go, which encourages them to go further than they would have without rules. Although, it would be nice, having accepted that we have rules that the rules are stuck to and it would also be nice if the people who are banned are banned for a reason and if, due to the fact that these guys were pivotal members of the S2 community, we could know why.
    Happy Reading
    Last edited by Hudge; 12-24-2008 at 03:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudge View Post
    And Ly, it would be nice if you'd stop pretending that the Nets board is the only one that's suffered, this bit: "it's the view of a lot of other posters on the Nets board," the whole damn site is losing out here, not just a bunch of basketball fans.

    Although, it would be nice, having accepted that we have rules that the rules are stuck to and it would also be nice if the people who are banned are banned for a reason and if, due to the fact that these guys were pivotal members of the S2 community, we could know why.
    I sincerely apologize. I can only speak for the Nets community with which I'm pretty close. I'm sure the rest of the site has suffered a great deal too, but I can only talk about what I know. I really do think it speaks to their quality as people, that this is more than just a Nets board issue - it's a site-wide issue.
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    Fair enough - I can respect that, although from all indications it sounds as if it were at least used as a supporting piece of evidence, which I'd still consider beyond the pale.
    Why? It's certainly a fair piece of evidence. If someone does a series of stupid things, there's always the defense (which is being used here, by the way), that the people doing the stupid things simply didn't know they were stupid. That these guys were just "confused", despite everyone lauding their intelligence.

    Well, that defense sort of goes out the window when one considers that such extremes were gone to ahead of time to get the point across to them.

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    So, from talking with the banned posters, they are under the impression that "what they did wrong," that is, the reason for their banning, essentially comes down to two threads:

    1) This one: http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131026

    2) And this one: http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131216

    Thread 1 was a case of GMJ going in and basically baiting the Blazers forum, but in fairness the Blazers forum baited him right back. But yeah, he went in looking for a fight, which isn't cool, but is totally his right as a poster on this board.
    No, it is not anyone's right to go somewhere looking for a fight. There's a big and obvious difference between someone getting angry in the heat of the moment (excusable) and someone, over the course of days, weeks, months repeatedly trying to start trouble (not excusable)

    I don't know the details exactly, but it seems like he called someone an asshole. I mean, is that it? I guess peg called the whole board assholes, which also isn't very nice, but I don't really see it as a ban-able offense in its own right. Certainly, it should be censored out, and he should be warned, and probably advised to stay off the Blazers board if he can't help but pick a fight, but (for either of them) a total ban without any discussion of explanation seems extreme.
    These things were all done in the past

    Thread 2 seems to be a bunch of friends joking around with each other. I don't know what happened, but I think it's a bit extreme to even say it harmed the site.

    Now, is that it? Are those threads the reasons War Poet, peg, GMJ and KC got banned? Or was there something else I'm not aware of?
    Yes, you seem to be ignoring the fact there's a long history of similar stuff, and the fact these guys appeared to be operating in a pre-meditated and organized fashion to simply come in and screw with people.

    It wasn't the first time, it wasn't an isolated incident, and it was hardly the first time any of them were on notice that their behavior was not appreciated.

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDC View Post
    If someone does a series of stupid things, there's always the defense (which is being used here, by the way), that the people doing the stupid things simply didn't know they were stupid. That these guys were just "confused", despite everyone lauding their intelligence.

    Well, that defense sort of goes out the window when one considers that such extremes were gone to ahead of time to get the point across to them.

    ...

    Yes, you seem to be ignoring the fact there's a long history of similar stuff, and the fact these guys appeared to be operating in a pre-meditated and organized fashion to simply come in and screw with people.
    So, to be clear, I don't think that they were doing stupid stuff out of stupidity, I think they were doing stupid stuff out of ignorance or stupidity. I get the distinct impression that they didn't feel they could have a reasonable dialog with the main staff of the site, so they found a more public way to protest.

    Also, I wouldn't say I'm ignoring the previous history of similar stuff - I'd say I'm ignorant of it. And judging by the reaction of a lot of other board members who are upset about this, so are they. We just aren't aware of what that previous history of harmful activity consists of - either that, or we've seen it and just not judged it to be that harmful.

    Either way, some examples might help clarify this.
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

    <span style="color:#0000FF">Free Paco</span>

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    Default Re: Stifled Voices, Disillusioned Posters and the Death of a Community

    Quote Originally Posted by ly_yng View Post
    Also, I'd like to know exactly what harm was done in this thread. I know it was satirical, but it was definitely an attack on an IDEA, not a poster, which is 100% in the rights of any poster on the board.

    I know there was some funny-ness with War Poet using his mod powers, but it seems to have all been in good fun - I don't see the harm done. Maybe the harmful posts were deleted? What am I missing?
    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."

    Reasons for optimism.

    <span style="color:#0000FF">Free Paco</span>

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