The Dumbest Generation?

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by bluefrog, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Programmer
    Location:
    New Bern
    http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...s-college-benchmark?google_editors_picks=true
    My first reaction was "Holy Shit, I only got a 12-something on my SATs!", then I remembered a perfect score is 2400 now.

    Parents are letting their kids fail in school and the test-and-punish strategy of the DOE isn't helping either.
     
  2. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    26,060
    Likes Received:
    9,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Some of us would be happy with a 2.67 GPA in college. :)

    I was talking to Mrs. FromWA about this last night...it seems that for years people focused on PoliSci, English Lit, Languages, History, etc for their degrees, so that they would have one. Now, companies are screaming for workers in the engineering and trades fields, and people with non-technical degrees are either un- or under-employed.

    But engineering is harder than PoliSci, so what are you going to do? Make kids take it?

    And based on the passing rates of the WASL graduation tests, not enough kids are being "punished" by staying behind a grade. If you don't meet the requirements to continue on to the next grade (which I admit may not be adequately shown in a standardized test), you shouldn't continue.
     
  3. BLAZER PROPHET

    BLAZER PROPHET Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    18,725
    Likes Received:
    191
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    dental malpractice claims adjuster
    Location:
    Portland area
    I was watching the news on this and they reported that more students are taking the test and that's what probably is pushing the scores down.

    Another thought is that rather than really focusing in the the 3 R's, kids today get a lot of social crap in primary and middle grades... They lack the foundation of 'education' in the traditional sense and maybe that has something to do with it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  4. TripTango

    TripTango Quick First Step

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,235
    Likes Received:
    95
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Aside from the test-taking demographic change, the SAT is anything but standardized on a year-to-year basis. Scoring styles, normalization, and the difficulty of the questions themselves are different over time, making comparison between years very problematic.

    And remind me what the SAT measures, again? Oh yeah -- it primarily assesses one's ability to take standardized tests.
     
  5. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Programmer
    Location:
    New Bern
    Absolutely the SAT has problems but it is a relatively cheap way of assessing a students ability to handle college level coursework. It's also one of the few things most universities can agree on. The addition of the writing portion makes it better test, too.

    If there is a better alternative I think we should give it a shot. There are many different kinds of intelligence, some of which are nearly impossible to observe, and a myriad of ways to measure them. It would be very expensive and time consuming to develop a new test that most people could agree is more "fair" and accurate than the SAT
     
  6. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    20,918
    Likes Received:
    5,168
    Trophy Points:
    113
    i blame auto-tune
     
  7. TripTango

    TripTango Quick First Step

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,235
    Likes Received:
    95
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    The SAT measures a student's ability to handle coursework? Got any evidence?

    Bates College has made the reporting of SAT scores optional for incoming students since 1984, and has done some fairly extensive research into measuring the possible correlation between SAT score submission and college success. Their conclusions? "In a word, in a college generally regarded as a highly demanding academic environment, non-submitters earn exactly the same grades, and graduate at exactly the same rates, as do submitters." Check out "20 Years of Optional SATs at Bates" and the accompanying PowerPoint slides for more detail.

    The SAT is a test-taking test. I say this as someone who has spent a great deal of time and earned a fair amount of money helping students improve their scores on the SAT and other standardized tests. Obviously there is some correlation with intelligence going on in the SAT results, but the fact is that a typical student can improve their score by hundreds of points simply by learning SAT-specific test-taking strategies and memorizing the definitions of obscure vocabulary words -- neither of which are skills necessarily connected to college (or post-graduation) success.
     
  8. The_Lillard_King

    The_Lillard_King Westside

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    12,405
    Likes Received:
    310
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I'm OK with the SAT system but do not think they should be given as much weight as they are given by colleges. There is so much more to graduates of high scholl than their SAT scores. If colleges are primarily using SAT scores as a way to determine who will be good college students, they are way off the mark . . . unless they define good college students as those who perform well on standardized tests.
     
  9. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Programmer
    Location:
    New Bern
    So the decline in SAT scores means students are getting worse at taking standardized tests? I'm not sure I'm getting your point.
     
  10. TripTango

    TripTango Quick First Step

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,235
    Likes Received:
    95
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    It means that this year's group of SAT test-takers had lower adjusted scores on this year's test than some other students who took a different test. In other words, it doesn't mean much.
     
  11. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Programmer
    Location:
    New Bern
    Do you think this is unrelated to the U.S.'s falling rank in math and science compared to other nations?
     
  12. TripTango

    TripTango Quick First Step

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,235
    Likes Received:
    95
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I do.

    In fact, although the math scores on the SAT have dipped a bit in the last five years, they remain higher than average scores in the 70's, 80's and 90's. The biggest decline has been in the critical reading section.

    [​IMG]
     
    bluefrog likes this.
  13. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    26,060
    Likes Received:
    9,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    iirc, though, when I took the SAT there was nothing more advanced than geometry in the test. Hard to test ability to do calculus or calc-based science and engineering
     
  14. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    32,643
    Likes Received:
    22,674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Blazer OT board
    Isn't that by design? It's not supposed to be a subject matter test, it is supposed to be an aptitude test.

    barfo
     
  15. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    56,114
    Likes Received:
    53,918
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NYstateofmind
    Fuck the SAT. I did pretty well on them, but still did shitty in college. One's performance on the SAT doesn't necessarily indicate a person's intelligence.
     
  16. TripTango

    TripTango Quick First Step

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,235
    Likes Received:
    95
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    That's my favorite part about the history of the SAT, actually. It originally stood for "Scholastic Aptitude Test", but switched to "Scholastic Assessment Test" after some people criticized the lack of proven correlation to college success. Then in the late 90's the College Board realized that the phrase "assessment test" is just silly, and announced that the acronym "SAT" no longer stands for anything at all. It is just the "SAT".
     
  17. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Programmer
    Location:
    New Bern
    What do you think colleges should use to measure how prepared a high school student is for college?
     
  18. TripTango

    TripTango Quick First Step

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,235
    Likes Received:
    95
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Realistically, the standardized testing infrastructure is far too engrained in our educational system to go away any time soon, but I think the whole thing has been built up to a ridiculous degree. I mean seriously -- look at those score averages up there. They show clearly that current students score 20-25 more points on the math section than students in the 80's did. What does that mean? Have kids gotten better at math over the last 30 years? What is 1 "point" worth, exactly? It's a unitless metric that measures an invented dimension.

    High school GPA and class ranking have been shown to be no worse -- and in some cases, better -- than SAT scores as predictors of grades in college. Even those are imperfect metrics, of course, since humans are complex creatures, but they do have the built-in bonus of being both cheap and readily available. So here's the real question: why do we need a multi-billion dollar industry built around a product that is proven to be no better than the free alternative?
     
  19. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Username Retired in Honor of Lanny.

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    50,346
    Likes Received:
    22,528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    its the illegals.
     
  20. blazerboy30

    blazerboy30 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,465
    Likes Received:
    423
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Let's see if I follow your logic here:

    - The SAT is just a test-taking test that is just a reflection of who studied for it and took classes to prepare for it.
    - More students today prepare and take classes for the SAT compared to years ago.
    - The SAT scores are lower now than they were compared to years ago.
    - But that doesn't mean anything with respect to knowledge

    Doesn't compute.
     

Share This Page