PEDS Only..........

Discussion in 'New York Yankees' started by Rick2583, Nov 20, 2014.

  1. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    I mean no disrespect to anyone but, I'm creating this thread so instead of reading about this topic in thread after thread that has NOTHING to do with this subject we could leave it all on this one. Just a thought.
     
  2. totus44

    totus44 Lord of the Dark Side

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    Great idea Rick.
     
  3. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    We'll see.
     
  4. Mattingly23NY

    Mattingly23NY Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~

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    Good Idea-r Rick....!

    I wonder when PEZ candy pieces, and PEZ dispensers will turn into PED dispensers. After all A-Roid was chewing on Gummies. I wouldn't put it past PED docs to utilize a common PED/PEZ dispenser. One that could be used without anyone knowing. Until they ban Chewing Gum in the Dugout, Sun Flower seeds, and PEZ/PED candy.

    No mang, ye can't have any of my PEZ or gummies. Better yet, take a handful....

    going back to the OP, I believe in the next decade, MLB will make more waivers, for Surgeons to utilize steroids, and other drugs which are commonly used in the public/private sector. Post Surgical, to enable an athletes body to recover and heal quicker, better, and with less post surgical probs. This has been happening in people like myself for over a decade, and 10 surgeries later. Soon MLB will have to take a hard look at their own policies, while implementing a better system, to eliminate the need for a waiver. Yet, how that could happen, I don't know. It may open a can of worms. Yet, MLB should realize, they are like the antiquated Vatican, a few millennium behind the modern times, of modern medical Protocol.....!!!
     
  5. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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  6. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    In the last 5 years your 40 & 50 HR seasons are drastically down so I think we're heading in the right direction.
     
  7. Mattingly23NY

    Mattingly23NY Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~

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    I hope so, and it seems that way....:smile:
     
  8. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    Here's a telling stat. Players with 40 or more HRs.................

    1996 = 17
    1997 = 12
    1998 = 13
    1999 = 13
    2000 = 16
    2001 = 12
    2002 = 8
    2003 = 10
    2004 = 9
    2005 = 9
    2006 = 11
    2007 = 5
    2008 = 2
    2009 = 5
    2010 = 2
    2011 = 2
    2012 = 6
    2013 = 2
    2014 = 1
     
  9. totus44

    totus44 Lord of the Dark Side

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    Telling how so? That's anecdotal evidence at best Rick. Ignoring the batters and pitchers in those given years, their ages, the stadium and weather variables, let's talk about the equipment alone. The measured tolerances in the change over between Spalding and Rawlings has been determined to produce a batted ball with +/- 50 feet of flight. That means that a ball within tolerance can varying that much. So much so when you go and look at those hr hitters and apply this tolerance as a normalization factor, the trend washes out. Were players juicing up to 2003, sure. But they also benefited from juiced balls.

    I think its important to lay out all the parameters in this multi variable question. To saying its telling is a bit of hyperbole. That window of elevated hr hitters does correlate to what we believe is the steroidcera, however one also has to assume pitchers also engaged in the practice. So am I to believe increased bat speed was a positive benefit, but increased velocity was a negative?

    I think to make this argument in a credible way, you need to layer the data. And Rob don't give me the ocam's razor bull, number of 40+ hr hitters by year is not the least common denominator. We do not know, verified by experimental evidence in a double blind fashion, what performance effects PEDs have on baseball stats.
     
  10. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    So the fact that the decade of the 80s saw only 13 players hit 40 or more HRs compared to the 90s that had 72 Or the 2000s (2000-2009) had 87 had little or nothing to do with PEDs? Please tell me that you really don't believe that.

    If these #s & the one's in my previous post are not telling stats then I don't know what is.
     
  11. totus44

    totus44 Lord of the Dark Side

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    So the fact that you chose to ignore all other factors to make your argument valid should be blindly accepted because you want the explanation to be the simple...is that what your saying? Sorry Rick, I don't buy it. +/- 50' of ball flight due to baseball manufacturing tolerances makes more sense. So you want to tell me you buy a dead ball era but you can't buy a juiced ball era? Hypocrisy at its finest. PED creation of more HR is based solely on circumstantial evidence.

    Show me statistical proof. When they publish the 2003 group of 103 players and show the analysis to compare the same test group stats for 2004 absent positives tests then you might have an argument. Otherwise your creating a straw man.
     
  12. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    I think if we both presented our argument to whoever would listen "Juiced ball vs. juiced player" that my argument would be the more likely reason for the large HR totals during that 10-15 year period. And if your contention that it was the juiced ball that created the big HR totals then why are guys named McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro & a few others not in the hall of fame?

    Sorry my friend but you coming up with different theories for the large HR totals during those years is nothing more then you doing your typical "If you say its white I'm going to say its black" argument. Which you appear to be doing a lot of lately. Especially on this topic.
     
  13. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    ...just to chime in, I think it's safe to say that PEDs had a direct influence on HR totals.
     
  14. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    Apparently that opinion would be shared by everyone. That is, except totus.
     
  15. Mattingly23NY

    Mattingly23NY Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~

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    WTF? You want to explain what the "ocams razor bull" is before you spew like a Whale?

    Come on Tote, you know as well as the rest of this board. Spalding stated their ball was NOt juiced. MLB did indeed prove PED's on the norm, created a HR, which on the avg. traveled an an additional 50 feet. Not at all because the ball was juiced, but because some players were. MLB and other entities did these studies. Can you give me one definitive proof the balls were juiced. No, because there is none....!!!

    Its elementary to say HR's were hit an additional 50 feet, when the facts are in, it was the juice in players, that hit the ball an additional 50 feet, and you should of already known this, and seen already.....but you continue to defend PED users......Did I not say a day will come when PED use is accepted even moreso, on a medical level....?? Yes, I fkn did..!!
    and YES, these stats of PED era HR's, vs Non-PED Year HR's, are a legit metric of as much.....

    when are you going to quit defending guys like A-Roid, and others saying they did NOT break any laws, by using PEDs. OH, your right, but they did do one thing worse. They broke the laws when they perjured themselves, before numerous entities and institutions.....I guess its ok to cheat, then even more ok to lie......ok, I got yer number....! If it fits wear it....if not don't worry about it....!
     
  16. totus44

    totus44 Lord of the Dark Side

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    Lol! I'm just asking for empirical evidence. We all assume steroids, HGH etc allows one to hit more HR - not arguing that. But you need to recognize this assumption has yet to be experimentally proven. And that there are in fact other variables that may have contributed independent of PEDs.

    New ballparks and the wind conditions created by construction designs that brought fans closer to the game, field sizes, new ball manufacturing, shifts in bat materials spruce/ash issue, advent of weight training and mass building by players, better dietary supplements, elimination of tobacco products, etc.

    Sorry, its a more complex issue and there isn't one smoking gun. What about the psychological impact of PED stigma, gulf without proof. You gonna go into the weight room and bulk up and hit more HR in a game where you automatically then get accused of cheating? You are looking for simple answers and I think that's intellectually dishonest at best.
     
  17. Rick2583

    Rick2583 Chairman of the board

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    During the 70s (1970-1979) only 1 player hit over 50 Hrs in a season (George Foster 1977)

    During the 80s (1980-1989) NO! player hit over 50 HRs in a season.

    20 years & the 50 HR mark was only reached ONCE.

    Over the next 20 years (1990-2009) the 50 HR mark was reached 24 times. 24 mother-fucking times. Compared to ONCE in the previous 20 years. And you in your infinite wisdom attribute this to what, juiced balls, bats & wind conditions. Let it go Tom I'm afraid your argument here is turning into nothing more then comic relief at its highest form.
     
  18. totus44

    totus44 Lord of the Dark Side

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    The only comic relief is your desperate attempts to jam a square peg in a round hole. You are not considering all the variables, only those you have cherry picked to make this simplistic argument. Whether for not the outcome is the same, your process is disingenuous and wholely laughable.

    I expect more from you Rick, Rob too.
     
  19. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    ...pot/kettle.
     
  20. totus44

    totus44 Lord of the Dark Side

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    Leave the blacks out of this. We'll get to the Ferguson thread soon enough. Hands up don't shoot!
     

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