Fourth quarter collapse

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets' started by foo82, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. foo82

    foo82 JBB JustBBall Member

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    It's interesting how the Rockets perform badly in the fourth. I don't think its our offense that suffers, but rather our defense. A lot of those "runs" by opponents seem to stem from our defensive lapses. I don't think we need a third scoring option, but rather for JVG to use the bench more often in between quarters.

    When someone gets tired, its usually the defense that suffers more, rather than the offense. I know its definately the case with me, and I'm sure its the case for most other people as well. Our defensive lapse also affects the players mentally and forces them to take shots they don't want to take.
     
  2. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's interesting how the Rockets perform badly in the fourth. I don't think its our offense that suffers, but rather our defense. A lot of those "runs" by opponents seem to stem from our defensive lapses. I don't think we need a third scoring option, but rather for JVG to use the bench more often in between quarters.</div>
    Sometimes I question if you guys even watch the same games. Anytime you have a team that shoots too many jumpers, it reflects in their free throw shooting. In the 4th quarter, the team that gets to the free throw line the best usually wins. We are the WORST team at getting to the free throw line.
    You fill in the blanks[​IMG]
     
  3. Trip

    Trip 2000000000000000000000000

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Sometimes I question if you guys even watch the same games. Anytime you have a team that shoots too many jumpers, it reflects in their free throw shooting. In the 4th quarter, the team that gets to the free throw line the best usually wins. We are the WORST team at getting to the free throw line.
    You fill in the blanks[​IMG]</div>
    Yup. We need Bonzi so he can get to the line and make 55% of his free throws. [​IMG]
     
  4. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's interesting how the Rockets perform badly in the fourth. I don't think its our offense that suffers, but rather our defense. A lot of those "runs" by opponents seem to stem from our defensive lapses. I don't think we need a third scoring option, but rather for JVG to use the bench more often in between quarters.</div>
    Sometimes I question if you guys even watch the same games. Anytime you have a team that shoots too many jumpers, it reflects in their free throw shooting. In the 4th quarter, the team that gets to the free throw line the best usually wins. We are the WORST team at getting to the free throw line.
    You fill in the blanks[​IMG]
     
  5. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    When you look at our numbers each quarter, the bigger problem in the fourth quarter is our defense, not our offense:

    <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>qtrpts opp_ptsnet paceOffEffDefEff<br/>124.5 21.3 +3.2 90.4108.394.3<br/>223.4 22.4 +1.0 89.9104.099.7<br/>324.5 21.8 +2.7 89.6109.597.4<br/>423.2 24.3 -1.1 88.0105.6 110.5<br/></div>

    OffEff is points scored per 100 possessions, and DefEff is points allowed per 100 possessions. Our defense in the 4th quarter has been terrible.
     
  6. foo82

    foo82 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">When you look at our numbers each quarter, the bigger problem in the fourth quarter is our defense, not our offense:

    <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>qtrpts opp_ptsnet paceOffEffDefEff<br/>124.5 21.3 +3.2 90.4108.394.3<br/>223.4 22.4 +1.0 89.9104.099.7<br/>324.5 21.8 +2.7 89.6109.597.4<br/>423.2 24.3 -1.1 88.0105.6 110.5<br/></div>

    OffEff is points scored per 100 possessions, and DefEff is points allowed per 100 possessions. Our defense in the 4th quarter has been terrible.</div>

    Can you get some rebound statistics as well? I have a feeling we get outrebounded in the fourth as well.
     
  7. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">foo82 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Can you get some rebound statistics as well? I have a feeling we get outrebounded in the fourth as well.</div>

    I don't have those numbers. Maybe at the end of the season I'll try to get all the stats for the Rockets and opponents broken down by quarter. It will take a while for me to collect it, though. Our overall defensive efficiency should strong correlate with our defensive rebounding, though, so I expect you're right.
     
  8. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">When you look at our numbers each quarter, the bigger problem in the fourth quarter is our defense, not our offense:

    <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><br/>qtrpts opp_ptsnet paceOffEffDefEff<br/>124.5 21.3 +3.2 90.4108.394.3<br/>223.4 22.4 +1.0 89.9104.099.7<br/>324.5 21.8 +2.7 89.6109.597.4<br/>423.2 24.3 -1.1 88.0105.6 110.5<br/></div>

    OffEff is points scored per 100 possessions, and DefEff is points allowed per 100 possessions. Our defense in the 4th quarter has been terrible.</div>
    It's all tied together. If you take jumpshots and don't get to the free throw line, the other team is gonna eventually get better looks. By getting to the free throw line in the 4th quarter, you do 3 important things: A) Slow the game down, make it a game of possessions [​IMG] Be able to either increase the lead or catch up w/ the clock not moving C) Force the opposing team to double team by putting pressure on their defenders. Bonzi's ability to do this would be a huge advantage for our team. To say he doesn't fit is a cop out. Why wouldn't he be activated? JVG's putting the team at a huge disadvantage by not atleast activating the guy, especially if we have a injury.
     
  9. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's all tied together. If you take jumpshots and don't get to the free throw line, the other team is gonna eventually get better looks. By getting to the free throw line in the 4th quarter, you do 3 important things: A) Slow the game down, make it a game of possessions [​IMG] Be able to either increase the lead or catch up w/ the clock not moving C) Force the opposing team to double team by putting pressure on their defenders. </div>

    If you already have a lead, why would you want to stop the clock -- particularly if you have to put a 55% foul shooter on the line? Not a very convincing argument, there. As for the double teams, you advocated taking Yao out of the game in favor of Bonzi. I think Yao is better at drawing double teams than Bonzi. I also think he's bette at drawing fouls, so I don't understand what you think we're gaining with Bonzi over Yao.

    And whatever might be gained defensively by slowing the game down via free throws is canceled out by Bonzi's poor half-court defense, not to mention the lack of an interior defensive presence if you're removing our center from the game.
     
  10. Trip

    Trip 2000000000000000000000000

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">It's all tied together. If you take jumpshots and don't get to the free throw line, the other team is gonna eventually get better looks. By getting to the free throw line in the 4th quarter, you do 3 important things: A) Slow the game down, make it a game of possessions [​IMG] Be able to either increase the lead or catch up w/ the clock not moving C) Force the opposing team to double team by putting pressure on their defenders. Bonzi's ability to do this would be a huge advantage for our team. To say he doesn't fit is a cop out. Why wouldn't he be activated? JVG's putting the team at a huge disadvantage by not atleast activating the guy, especially if we have a injury.</div>
    I agree. Bonzi, with his three free throws per game, can make a huge difference. Besides, he's a much better free shooter than Shaquille O'Neal at 55% from the line. Without Bonzi, we're doomed to lose. [​IMG]

    C'mon Rock, respond to that. I bring up 55% and you keep on supporting Bonzi as if he can give us 10 more points every quarter from the free throw line.
     
  11. igotask8board

    igotask8board Active Member

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    Bonzi Wells is a career 70% FT shooter. I'm sure if he got consistent minutes his ft% would skyrocket. He took a majority of those free throws with some kind of injury, whether it be groin or obeseness.
     
  12. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If you already have a lead, why would you want to stop the clock -- particularly if you have to put a 55% foul shooter on the line? Not a very convincing argument, there. As for the double teams, you advocated taking Yao out of the game in favor of Bonzi. I think Yao is better at drawing double teams than Bonzi. I also think he's bette at drawing fouls, so I don't understand what you think we're gaining with Bonzi over Yao.</div>
    Why bring up Yao? Yao does get to the free throw line, but unfortunatley he doesn't get enuff calls and is only one player. Like I've said, somebodyelse has to take it to the rim. Um, that's Bonzi resume if you didn't know[​IMG]Anytime you have a player who can get to the free throw line, you play him.

    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">And whatever might be gained defensively by slowing the game down via free throws is canceled out by Bonzi's poor half-court defense, not to mention the lack of an interior defensive presence if you're removing our center from the game.</div>
    Says who? You? You (or JVG) seem the only ppl who rag on Bonzi's defense. Portland didn't seem to complain, they stuck Bonzi on Kobe in the playoffs.

    <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree. Bonzi, with his three free throws per game, can make a huge difference. Besides, he's a much better free shooter than Shaquille O'Neal at 55% from the line. Without Bonzi, we're doomed to lose. [​IMG]

    C'mon Rock, respond to that. I bring up 55% and you keep on supporting Bonzi as if he can give us 10 more points every quarter from the free throw line.</div>
    He's shooting 55% in the few games he's played this season. Even Tmac has went thru periods where he couldn't hit a free throw, does that mean he shouldn't be in the playoff? No. Game over, you have no point
     
  13. Trip

    Trip 2000000000000000000000000

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
    He's shooting 55% in the few games he's played this season. Even Tmac has went thru periods where he couldn't hit a free throw, does that mean he shouldn't be in the playoff? No. Game over, you have no point</div>
    He's shot 80 free throws already. I have a point because you're basically saying that Bonzi is valuable for his free throw shooting, and that's not true because he's a 55% free throw shooter. 44-80, that's a fairly large sample already.
     
  14. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Locke Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">He's shot 80 free throws already. I have a point because you're basically saying that Bonzi is valuable for his free throw shooting, and that's not true because he's a 55% free throw shooter. 44-80, that's a fairly large sample already.</div>
    I didn't say anything about Bonzi's free throw%. YOU brought it up (for the record). What I DID say is he's effective at getting there, something our team desperatley needs. He's only played in a few games and had trouble w/ his free throws. How much more can you put to that? He's a career 70% free throw shooter. Like I said, even Tmac went thru a serious dry spell at the line. No excuses for JVG not playing Bonzi.................
     
  15. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Why bring up Yao? Yao does get to the free throw line, but unfortunatley he doesn't get enuff calls and is only one player. Like I've said, somebodyelse has to take it to the rim. Um, that's Bonzi resume if you didn't know[​IMG]Anytime you have a player who can get to the free throw line, you play him. </div>

    You said we should replace Yao with Bonzi. That's the fourth quarter lineup you suggested. If Yao is "only one player", do you consider Bonzi to be two players? You think Bonzi gives us a better chance to win than Yao? I just don't agree.

    If you think we should play both Yao and Bonzi, tell me the lineup you'd want us to use. We can only have 5 players on the court at once, and there's only one ball we can work with on each possession. Keep all that in mind.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Says who? You? You (or JVG) seem the only ppl who rag on Bonzi's defense. Portland didn't seem to complain, they stuck Bonzi on Kobe in the playoffs.</div>

    Portland was several years (and a couple knee injuries) ago. And I think JVG has far more credibility in terms of evaluating defensive ability than you. The Rockets beat writer (who has court side seats to all the games) said the same as well, if you want another person. Matt & Adam, Charlie Palillo, if their opinion means anything, also.
     
  16. ROCK4LIFE

    ROCK4LIFE Active Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">You said we should replace Yao with Bonzi. That's the fourth quarter lineup you suggested. If Yao is "only one player", do you consider Bonzi to be two players? You think Bonzi gives us a better chance to win than Yao? I just don't agree.</div>
    No I didn't, pay attention. I said we would START the 4th quarter w/ Bonzi and Yao on the bench. You keep saying I'd replace Yao with Bonzi, but that's not accurate. Yao can't play the whole 4th quarter, you agree?

    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If you think we should play both Yao and Bonzi, tell me the lineup you'd want us to use. We can only have 5 players on the court at once, and there's only one ball we can work with on each possession. Keep all that in mind.</div>

    Rafer
    Bonzi
    Tmac
    Howard
    Yao

    Go ahead and find a flaw, i'm sure ur "stats" will bring you to some conclusion lol.

    <div class="quote_poster">durvasa Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Portland was several years (and a couple knee injuries) ago. And I think JVG has far more credibility in terms of evaluating defensive ability than you. The Rockets beat writer (who has court side seats to all the games) said the same as well, if you want another person. Matt & Adam, Charlie Palillo, if their opinion means anything, also.</div>
    So Bonzi's only been a bad defender when he came to Houston? Um, yea right[​IMG]
     
  17. durvasa

    durvasa JBB Rockets Fan

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">No I didn't, pay attention. I said we would START the 4th quarter w/ Bonzi and Yao on the bench. You keep saying I'd replace Yao with Bonzi, but that's not accurate. Yao can't play the whole 4th quarter, you agree?</div>

    You also said there was a chance we'd get outscored with Bonzi. Couple that with the fact that we extended our lead against Utah up till the 4 1/2 minute mark, your suggestion that we should have played Bonzi to start the quarter makes little sense. Obviously, you were implying that your lineup would have prevented Utah from making their big run. But that run occured at the end of the fourth quarter, not the beginning. Keep up.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Rafer
    Bonzi
    Tmac
    Howard
    Yao

    Go ahead and find a flaw, i'm sure ur [facts] will bring you to some conclusion lol. </div>

    That lineup makes more sense then the other one. Personally, I think Battier gives us a much better chance to win than Bonzi late in the game when T-Mac and Yao are also on the floor, but if you disagree fine. Just don't act like Bonzi over Battier is a no-brainer decision, because it isn't.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So Bonzi's only been a bad defender when he came to Houston? Um, yea right[​IMG]</div>

    No. He wasn't a good defender last year either. Which is what I said at the beginning of the season. Certainly, he isn't as good a defender as Battier or Yao. So your claim that having Bonzi in there instead will somehow improve our defense is nonsense.
     
  18. Trip

    Trip 2000000000000000000000000

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    <div class="quote_poster">Rock4life Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't say anything about Bonzi's free throw%. YOU brought it up (for the record). What I DID say is he's effective at getting there, something our team desperatley needs. He's only played in a few games and had trouble w/ his free throws. How much more can you put to that? He's a career 70% free throw shooter. Like I said, even Tmac went thru a serious dry spell at the line. No excuses for JVG not playing Bonzi.................</div>
    What good is getting to the free throw line if Bonzi can't hit the free throws? He's a career 70% shooter but career-wise he's also never been as bad as this year. TMac's gone through dry stretches from the foul line but can you afford to sit him? You're acting as if Bonzi's only good for getting to the free throw line, so it makes sense if he can't convert on the freebies.
     
  19. Eduardo

    Eduardo JBB JustBBall Member

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    Speaking of fourth quarter collapses, guess what? Our first round rivals are even bigger choke artists than we are! They just lost to the Sonics after leading by 22 at the end of the 3rd. Both Utah and Houston are enduring 3 game losing streaks. wurd.
     
  20. Blurr#7

    Blurr#7 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Eduardo Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Speaking of fourth quarter collapses, guess what? Our first round rivals are even bigger choke artists than we are! They just lost to the Sonics after leading by 22 at the end of the 3rd. Both Utah and Houston are enduring 3 game losing streaks. wurd.</div>

    Wow! we could have easily took over the home court lead............discouraging to say the least.
     

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