17 million Americans just got healthcare coverage!

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Shooter

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It's really true!! I heard it last night during Obama's big speech. He said that there are presently 30 million Americans without healthcare coverage, which is a dramatic reduction from the 47 million uninsured Americans that the Dems have been moaning about for years.

Don't ask me how these 17 million Americans suddenly got coverage, but it's certainly great news. And it obviously means we're going in the right direction. I think it only makes sense that we leave our healthcare system alone, since doing nothing has reduced the number of uninsured by a significant measure, and continuing to do nothing may reduce it even more.

:ghoti::ghoti::ghoti::ghoti:
 
I actually chuckled a bit last night when I heard that line. You'll note that we no longer get the health care we want (which was the previous line), but he health care we need. Since when in America does the government get to tell me what health care I can have?
 
FWIW-Just met with my doctor (damn cholesterol). He is repected doctor in the community. Aksed his thoughts about Obama and the healthcare issue. He told me he wished Obama would stop using scare tactics and sit down and discuss the issues in a civil manner. More emotion than I usually see from him.

There is one local doctor's opinion.
 
I think that 17 million is the number of illegal aliens in the U.S.
 
Maybe the 17 million is a number of Americans who have access, but don't use it for whatever reason. He mentioned 30 million without access to healthcare. Could be an instance where someone is in school, and has the option to purchase coverage from the school, but elects not to. Or, he screwed up. But, since his speeches are certainly read through before he reads them, i would imagine there is a difference between those without coverage, adn those without ACCESS to coverage.
 
I think that 17 million is the number of illegal aliens in the U.S.
You mean Democrats were counting all the illegal aliens when they used the 47 million figure? In other words, they were inflating the figures just to scare everybody, and make us think the problem was worse than it really is???

Unbelievable. Obama has apparently decided to abandon that tactic, as no one believed the 47 million figure anyway.
 
For what it's worth, the difference between the two numbers is a guess at the number of people who *could* get health insurance if they wanted it but choose not to do so.

There are 47 million uninsured. Over 30 million of those are unable to get insurance due to cost, pre-existing conditions, etc. The other 15 million or so might be able to get insurance if they want but, for whatever reason, choose not to. (Probably a lot of young folks who are healthy and figure they can roll the dice without insurance protection.)

Obama changed the number he was using because he had been criticized some in the past for declaring that everyone who doesn't have insurance *can't* get it, when in fact some of those people voluntarily don't have it. That seems a fair critique, to me, and it also seems fair play that he revised down the number he was using in his rhetoric.

But have fun with it, wingers! 17 million just got healthcare woohooo! It's all a circus!
 
You mean Democrats were counting all the illegal aliens when they used the 47 million figure? In other words, they were inflating the figures just to scare everybody, and make us think the problem was worse than it really is???

Unbelievable. Obama has apparently decided to abandon that tactic, as no one believed the 47 million figure anyway.

LOL! Is a NeoCon actually criticizing Obama for distorting facts?

Anyway, there may be 47 million uninsured people in this country, and only 30 million uninsured (legal) Americans? Or maybe 30 million who can't afford insurance, and 17 million who are uninsured by choice? Who knows. I agree that him using 47 million seems deceptive.

FWIW-Just met with my doctor (damn cholesterol). He is repected doctor in the community. Aksed his thoughts about Obama and the healthcare issue. He told me he wished Obama would stop using scare tactics and sit down and discuss the issues in a civil manner. More emotion than I usually see from him.

Seems a silly thing to say. Scare tactics are far more prominent on the right side of the isle than on the left. And it is hard to sit down and have a reasonable arguement with unreasonable people.

Many republicans have committed to destroying the bill at any cost for political reasons. To destroy Obama; to make it his Waterloo. Others have said that they don't need to read the bill they already know they disagree with it. They are really serving their constituents.

With the death panel claims, government takeover, reduced senior healthcare, illegal immigrant coverage, funding abortions, etc... Lots of lies out there that are used to scare people off.
 
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For what it's worth, the difference between the two numbers is a guess at the number of people who *could* get health insurance if they wanted it but choose not to do so.
So it's not the number of illegal aliens, but the number of people who "choose" not to get coverage? That's just as bad, because it means the Democrats have been using the 47 million figure all along to make us think all of these people were being denied coverage.

It's really breathtaking that Obama has suddenly lowered the figure by 17 million without batting an eye. Just another example of how the Libs will lie, cheat, and steal to make their points. No wonder people don't trust this administration.
 
Seems a silly thing to say. Scare tactics are far more prominent on the right side of the isle than on the left. And it is hard to sit down and have a reasonable arguement with unreasonable people.
that's not true. scare tactics are equally prominent on both sides of the isle.
 
MrJ, all rhetoric aside (and anyone can jump in on this one)...

Could you please explain to me why you personally think that health care reform is needed; why HR 3200 should pass; and why it's ok to increase the federal debt the $7-9B it will require if passed? Forget lies; forget destroying Obama...what are your answers for those 3 questions?
 
Could you please explain to me why you personally think that health care reform is needed

I think that almost everyone feels some kind of reform is needed. Our system is fucked up. We spend way too much money on our system for having so many uninsured and so many people go bankrupt (numbers are pretty amazing, bankruptcy wise). Our healthcare system is also ranked low compared to other countries who have universal healthcare, yet spend much less than we do. Something must be done, at the very least making our current system more efficient.

why HR 3200 should pass

Could care less about the bill. There are basic things I want though. Lower premiums, not denying for pre-existing conditions, etc. The Insurance exchange sounds like a great idea. I don't have an opinion on the public option either way, but i'm for finding a way to keep the insurance companies honest and accountable. I'm fine with profit, i'm not fine with making an insane profit at the expense of our lives.

and why it's ok to increase the federal debt the $7-9B it will require if passed?

I'm not in favor of any bill that will add to the deficit in the long run. Say the next 10 years. If it does then there is no point and i'd rather pass things like not allowing Insurance companies to deny on pre-existing conditions, do the marketplace, and stuff like that. I just do believe that we can make our current system much more efficient.

that's not true. scare tactics are equally prominent on both sides of the isle.

We are talking in the last six months. If you think that you must be very right wing. I have plenty of right wing friends who say its not even close. That the right wing are using scare tactics and purposely distorting facts to change public opinion on health care for political reasons.
 
Nobody believed the 47 million claim?

Us Census Bureau did:
You mean the U.S. Census Bureau staffed and managed by the Obama administration, and beholden to it for their bread and butter?? Gee, what a surprise!
 
You mean the U.S. Census Bureau staffed and managed by the Obama administration, and beholden to it for their bread and butter?? Gee, what a surprise!

So you don't believe Obama when he said 47 million. Then believed him when he said 30 million and called him a liar. And now you are trying to discredit the Census Bureau showing 47 million uninsured?

Whatever supports your agenda, eh?
 
FWIW-Just met with my doctor (damn cholesterol). He is repected doctor in the community. Aksed his thoughts about Obama and the healthcare issue. He told me he wished Obama would stop using scare tactics and sit down and discuss the issues in a civil manner. More emotion than I usually see from him.

There is one local doctor's opinion.

Was he able to lower your cholesterol? We disagree a lot, but I'd like you around to continue to disagree.:cheers:

Your doctor hit upon an important point: Neither side is having a reasonable discussion. We can debate about who started it, but it's not as important as addressing the fundamental issues behind what's wrong and how to fix it.
 
We are talking in the last six months. If you think that you must be very right wing. I have plenty of right wing friends who say its not even close. That the right wing are using scare tactics and purposely distorting facts to change public opinion on health care for political reasons.
should i just say that if you don't agree with me that you must be very left wing? because that doesn't really make your point any better for you.

the fact is that the right hasn't been using scare tactics any more than the left. both sides do it all the time.
 
If we don't pass Obama's vague healthcare/insurance reform that doesn't start until 2013 immediately, more Americans will die!! :ohno:

If Americans are indeed dying and will die, as the President said last night, shouldn't the bill have a live date much sooner than four years from now?
 
should i just say that if you don't agree with me that you must be very left wing? because that doesn't really make your point any better for you.

the fact is that the right hasn't been using scare tactics any more than the left. both sides do it all the time.

Republicans will take away seniors' health care as $500 billion is slashed from Medicare in this bill!!! :ohno:
 
So you don't believe Obama when he said 47 million. Then believed him when he said 30 million and called him a liar. And now you are trying to discredit the Census Bureau showing 47 million uninsured?

Whatever supports your agenda, eh?
This "inconsistency" you seem to be seeing is all in your imagination. If I didn't believe Obama when he said 47 million (as most Americans didn't), then it only makes sense that I wouldn't believe the Census Bureau for saying it. As for the 30 million figure, I don't know if that one is right, either, but I'm sure it's closer to the truth than 47 million.
 
How can you over-exaggerate something? :) And for that matter, do you really think the legal profession is on the ropes? To summarize my thoughts

1. It's pretty evidence we already don't have enough doctors. I don't think it's controversial to say that reducing their compensation while still it's extraordinarily costly to be a doctor will reduce the number of people who want to be doctors relative to other things.

2. I don't think the seriousness of our governmental finance issues can be exaggerated. Nobody projects that we have a reasonable way to pay for the current system. We will have to cut benefits we're projected to give people and/or raise taxes. Probably both, and not in some moderate "tax only a couple zillionaires' sort of way. So as a first proposition, I'm inclined to figure that out before I add more obligations to the mix. Consider it proof of concept. If one thinks the government can come in and (successfully) take over the entire health insurance industry, demonstrate how it can be successful in the parts it already offers.

3. I agree 100% on NPs. Unfortunately, the fact they are not in as widespread use as they should be is largely a result of regulations imposed that prevent them from legally doing many of the things doctors do. I'd like to see the government be able to resolve problems its created like this before I cede more control and decision-making power to them.



Oh no, those are not opinions, those are verifiable facts. The US health care system provides better treatment to people who, on average, are in worse shape. In treating heart attacks and cancers, the results are across the board better. Taken from that last paper, here are 5 year survival rates for folks treated for various cancers in the US and various European countries:

Code:
Cancer    US    Europe
Prostate    99    76
Skin    92    86
Breast    90    79
Uterus    82    78
Colon    66    56
Lymphoma    62    55
Stomach    25    25
Lung    16    11
That article also shows death among the elderly from more common things like pneumonia and flu are lower than average in the US when adjusted to consider differences in population characteristics.

Overall mortality rates in the US are lower for basically behavioral reasons, not the quality of the health care we receive. Another study I recently read indicated, for example, that the average American who reaches age 65 can expect to live nearly half a year longer than the average Dutchman who reaches 65. Which is probably more amazing because the state of your average 65 year old American's body is typically worse than the Dutchman's

This fact sort of leads into the behavioral concerns McArdle rants about and Klein tries to dismiss, but it's pretty evident from looking at the data that the biggest issue causing Americans to appear to have worse health care than Europeans is the fact that we lead less healthy and more dangerous lives.




I don't expect, by the way, that Klein had a straight face when he was making that argument. :) Among other things that quote from him is patently absurd. He surely knows, for example, that Medicare only started including prescription drug coverage about 3 years ago (that was the Medicare part D bill). So when he argues that Medicare is somehow funding the development of new and better drugs, he's not even in the right ballpark (and missing out on the 37 years where people were paying for it themselves).

Beyond that, Medicare is relatively famous for insisting that folks use outdated but proven means of doing things, because doing anything else, literally, takes an act of congress. For example, my grandmother had Alzheimer's for the last several years of her life, and because of the various drugs she was given, had to have her blood sugar checked a couple times a day. Now, if you know about this stuff, you might know that there now exist means of testing this without the old-fashioned finger prick tests. You just use a little machine that instantly and painlessly measures it. However, for several years, these were not approved for use by Medicare, and thus the Nursing home wouldn't get one and use it. Even worse, they would not be reimbursed for the time the testing took if they didn't use the Medicare approved method of poking my grandmother's finger every day. And oh yeah, it would expose them to a lawsuit (which is something the current health care "reform" proposals do nothing about. Hence, even when my granddad offered to buy the machine and give it to the nursing home at no cost, they refused on both of those grounds.

And, of course, there's the elephant in the room that we mentioned before: Medicare is uber-expensive despite the sort of insane decision-making it leads to, and is thus not employable to the entire population in the same way it has been (unsustainably) employed to those 65 and over.


FWIW, a great post.
 
It's pretty evidence we already don't have enough doctors.
What the hell does that mean?

I don't think it's controversial to say that reducing their compensation while still it's extraordinarily costly to be a doctor will reduce the number of people who want to be doctors relative to other things.
Huh? This is horrible writing and I refuse to wade through it, no matter how "right" this guy may be.
 
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If we don't pass Obama's vague healthcare/insurance reform that doesn't start until 2013 immediately, more Americans will die!!

If Americans are indeed dying and will die, as the President said last night, shouldn't the bill have a live date much sooner than four years from now?

doing it over four years keeps the cost down.

should i just say that if you don't agree with me that you must be very left wing? because that doesn't really make your point any better for you.

the fact is that the right hasn't been using scare tactics any more than the left. both sides do it all the time.

I find this extremely humorous.
 

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