2012 Election NOT a rebuke of conservatism

[bluefrog]

According to Palin

“And the Obama media also piled on with the narrative that Romney would harm the middle class. (As I personally have witnessed, once a bell is rung by a biased media, it’s impossible to un-ring it).”

“Hang in there, America. Fight for what is right. Don’t look to government or any politician to solve your problems. Government can’t make you happy, healthy, wealthy, or wise. Obama is a master at reading the right ‘soaring’ words fed into his teleprompter, but actions speak louder than words.”

Americans would do well to remember 2 Corinthians 4:8, Palin says: "'We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed.’"

I respectfully disagree:

- same-sex marriage approved in Maine, Maryland and Washington
- rejection of amendment in Minnasota that defined marriage as between one man and one woman
- election of the first openly gay senator, Tammy Baldwin, in Wisconsin
- election of the first Buddhist senator, Mazie Hirono, in Hawaii
- election of the first hindu representative, Tulsi Gabbard, also Hawaii
- rejection of Citizen's United in Colorado and Montana
- rejection of anti-Obamacare healthcare amendment in Florida
- rejection a proposal to ban insurance coverage for abortion in Florida
- leaglization of recreational use of marijuana in colorado and Washington

Oddly enough Californians (arguably the most liberal state) voted against mandatory lableing of genetically modified foods and to keep the death penalty but they did vote to raise income and sales tax and rejected a proposition to limit union contributions to political campaigns.

 

[donkiez]

Palin is a good representation for everything that is currently wrong with the the republican party.

The GMO food labeling rejection in Cali is kind of surprising but I dont think the average person is informed about the potential issues with GMO food. The union limiting rejection isnt surprising though, they make up a huge portion of the democrats funding.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Palin is a good representation for everything that is currently wrong with the the republican party.

The GMO food labeling rejection in Cali is kind of surprising but I dont think the average person is informed about the potential issues with GMO food. The union limiting rejection isnt surprising though, they make up a huge portion of the democrats funding.

To me, Palin is an accidental person. She was elected to be gov of Alaska in a fluke and then McCain tried to make her a relevant person on a national level. She strikes me as a somewhat ditzy person who was accidentlly thrust in the limelight and became the left's spkesperson for the right. Similar to Biden.

 

[Spud147]

To me, Palin is an accidental person. She was elected to be gov of Alaska in a fluke and then McCain tried to make her a relevant person on a national level. She strikes me as a somewhat ditzy person who was accidentlly thrust in the limelight and became the left's spkesperson for the right. Similar to Biden.

That's the thing, the Republican party just keeps making these huge fatal errors in their campaigns. Choosing Palin as a running mate killed McCain's campaign and nominating a Mormon killed this one. They just appear to be incredibly clueless.

I personally felt there had to be much better VP candidates in 2008 and they were just picking her because they thought it would appeal to women. It was a very obvious marketing plan and, again, I'm smart enough to think for myself. I don't care if the VP is a woman... I care that the VP is competent.

With a Mormon nominee you basically eliminate this choice for me just like nominating a Muslim would. One of Mitt's religion's core beliefs is that woman and "brown" people are inferior. He was a very scary dude to me.

 

[ABM]

With a Mormon nominee you basically eliminate this choice for me just like nominating a Muslim would.

WHAT?!! WAIT!! Obama's not a muslim?!? :MARIS61:

 

[Spud147]

WHAT?!! WAIT!! Obama's not a muslim?!? :MARIS61:

From what I understand he's a Muslim, Christian, AND a Communist.

 

[Denny Crane]

According to Palin

I respectfully disagree:

- same-sex marriage approved in Maine, Maryland and Washington
- rejection of amendment in Minnasota that defined marriage as between one man and one woman
- election of the first openly gay senator, Tammy Baldwin, in Wisconsin
- election of the first Buddhist senator, Mazie Hirono, in Hawaii
- election of the first hindu representative, Tulsi Gabbard, also Hawaii
- rejection of Citizen's United in Colorado and Montana
- rejection of anti-Obamacare healthcare amendment in Florida
- rejection a proposal to ban insurance coverage for abortion in Florida
- leaglization of recreational use of marijuana in colorado and Washington

Oddly enough Californians (arguably the most liberal state) voted against mandatory lableing of genetically modified foods and to keep the death penalty but they did vote to raise income and sales tax and rejected a proposition to limit union contributions to political campaigns.

I respectfully suggest not one thing on your list has anything to do with conservatism. It's called a straw man. You set it up and knocked it down really well!

 

[DaLincolnJones]

yeah.. I could not find anything in that list I gave a fuck about..

Palin is not the head of the GOP..

 

[bluefrog]

I respectfully suggest not one thing on your list has anything to do with conservatism. It's called a straw man. You set it up and knocked it down really well!

So you agree with Palin?

 

[bluefrog]

yeah.. I could not find anything in that list I gave a fuck about..

Palin is not the head of the GOP..

No, but she does represent a portion of the conservative demographic.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

No, but she does represent a portion of the conservative demographic.

I knew you would go there, she would be as much of an influence as rev wright is to the Dems

 

[magnifier661]

Everything on your list wasn't a big concern for me and I'm Republican.

 

[bluefrog]

Everything on your list wasn't a big concern for me and I'm Republican.

Do you consider yourself a conservative?

 

[magnifier661]

Do you consider yourself a conservative?

hmmm that's a good question really. If the democrats had the Republican fiscal views; I would probably be a democrat. So maybe I consider myself a moderate? Maybe you can call me a fence straddler.

 

[Denny Crane]

So you agree with Palin?

Conservatives are not religious people. Religious people might be conservative.

Do you see religion mentioned anywhere in the definition below?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conservatism

Definition of CONSERVATISM

1 capitalized
a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party
b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established
b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change; specifically : such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (as retirement income or health-care coverage)
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change

 

[Mediocre Man]

hmmm that's a good question really. If the democrats had the Republican fiscal views; I would probably be a democrat. So maybe I consider myself a moderate? Maybe you can call me a fence straddler.

You sound like a libertarian to me, Mags. Or maybe even a centrist. A good number of Republicans probably are libertarian

 

[Denny Crane]

So you agree with Palin?

I gave you one answer, but I have another as well.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar..._case_of_the_missing_white_voters_116106.html

This is a question I raised yesterday, no? If 10M Conservative/Republican voters stayed home, unmoved by Romney as candidate, does that mean Conservatism is dead, or does it mean Conservatism rejected Romney?

Back to your question. So is actual Conservatism dead? I have though so for several years, but the Tea Party movement that talks about fiscal sanity ONLY, I think not. Consider:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...tical_plus_32_of_democrats_say_same_of_occupy

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 44% of Likely U.S. Voters hold at least a somewhat favorable view of Tea Party activists, while 49% share an unfavorable opinion of them. This includes 23% with a Very Favorable view and 29% with a Very Unfavorable one.

(Republicans need to separate the fiscal conservative message of the Tea Party from any social agenda, IMO)

 

[bluefrog]

deleted

 

[Denny Crane]

Do you think the election was a rebuke of conservatism?

NO. As I said in my more recent post, it was likely more a rebuke of Romney.

 

[bluefrog]

I gave you one answer, but I have another as well.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar..._case_of_the_missing_white_voters_116106.html

This is a question I raised yesterday, no? If 10M Conservative/Republican voters stayed home, unmoved by Romney as candidate, does that mean Conservatism is dead, or does it mean Conservatism rejected Romney?

Back to your question. So is actual Conservatism dead? I have though so for several years, but the Tea Party movement that talks about fiscal sanity ONLY, I think not. Consider:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...tical_plus_32_of_democrats_say_same_of_occupy

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 44% of Likely U.S. Voters hold at least a somewhat favorable view of Tea Party activists, while 49% share an unfavorable opinion of them. This includes 23% with a Very Favorable view and 29% with a Very Unfavorable one.

(Republicans need to separate the fiscal conservative message of the Tea Party from any social agenda, IMO)

I don't think a national candidate can win on a platform of individual financial responsibility. Americans have lived under the two Santa Clauses for two generations now.

 

[Further]

Conservatives are not religious people. Religious people might be conservative.

Do you see religion mentioned anywhere in the definition below?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conservatism

Definition of CONSERVATISM

1 capitalized
a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party
b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established
b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change; specifically : such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (as retirement income or health-care coverage)
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change

No matter what the actual definition is, those in power of the conservative wing of the party right now are quite religious and have been quite vocal about letting those views influence their stances.

I am a Dem, but I would consider myself to be a fiscally conservative Dem since I would like to see them cut spending accross the board, but especially on the military. I would like to see taxes stay low overall although I do believe in a gradient. Kind of how things are now but with loopholes removed. All in all, I am not looking for tons of spending or gouging the rich.

However I want to see movement on social issues and most importantly, I want a government that respects science and looks to improve our future through sience and technology. Invest in alternate energy, invest in basic sciences, invest in exploration, invest in healthcare and invest in a better tomorrow.

If the Republican Party got away from their social views and especially their war on science and information, then I would be very interested in that. But they are religious and the conservative brand is religious.


If TRUE CONSERVATIVES (ie. not religious) want to win, they can't be part of the Left, which believes in change and progress, and they can't believe in the Right, which believes in the bible and ruling according to the pulpit. They need a party all its own or else they need to take back the Republican Party and banish out the zealots.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't think a national candidate can win on a platform of individual financial responsibility. Americans have lived under the two Santa Clauses for two generations now.

I don't think a moderate republican can win, even though the electorate may be more tilted toward conservative ideology.

For starters, why vote for a democrat in republican trappings when you can vote for an actual democrat?

For the hard core christian coalition types, Romney's sudden conversion to a pro life stance isn't believable. Not that the christian coalition defines the party, but it's a big enough constituency.

And I wonder who those 10M who didn't show up really are? The popular vote actually went down, Obama was the first reelected president to have a lesser popular vote than his first election that I know of. Isn't that a rebuke of his first term and policies? I think so!

EDIT: Republicans ran two moderate candidates for president the last two times against Obama and lost. I think the "compassionate conservative" W Bush didn't leave it so people want another moderate republican.

 

[Denny Crane]

If TRUE CONSERVATIVES (ie. not religious) want to win, they can't be part of the Left, which believes in change and progress, and they can't believe in the Right, which believes in the bible and ruling according to the pulpit. They need a party all its own or else they need to take back the Republican Party and banish out the zealots.

The Tea Party is all about taking back the republican party. It wasn't a religious party when Reagan or GHW Bush were president.

See this for yourself:

http://www.teaparty-platform.com/

What exactly in the tea party platform do you disagree with and why?

 

[magnifier661]

However I want to see movement on social issues and most importantly, I want a government that respects science and looks to improve our future through sience and technology. Invest in alternate energy, invest in basic sciences, invest in exploration, invest in healthcare and invest in a better tomorrow.

I don't want to toss out a conspiracy here but. The pharmacology companies heavily endorse the Democratic party. Are you aware that there have been many "alternative findings and treatments" of cancers or other major illnesses; that the federal government has shut down? I always laughed at how many Democrats bark at how evil the oil empire is; yet they praise the medical and pharmacology industry that makes billions on kimo therapy and flu shots.

 

[donkiez]

yeah.. I could not find anything in that list I gave a fuck about..

And this is why the republicans lost because the majority of the population does give a fuck about it, and the republicans are letting a rigid vocal minority dictate their social policies.

 

[barfo]

I don't think the idea of disconnecting social issues from the Republican party really works. You can't have a party that has no opinion whatsoever about social issues.

Maybe what we need is four parties:

Big government, social conservative (Bush/Romney party)
Big government, social liberal (Obama party)
Small government, social conservative (Palin/Ryan party)
Small government, social liberal (Denny Crane party)

Would be interesting to see the party registration figures.

barfo

 

[donkiez]

I don't think the idea of disconnecting social issues from the Republican party really works. You can't have a party that has no opinion whatsoever about social issues.

Maybe what we need is four parties:

Big government, social conservative (Bush/Romney party)
Big government, social liberal (Obama party)
Small government, social conservative (Palin/Ryan party)
Small government, social liberal (Denny Crane party)

Would be interesting to see the party registration figures.

barfo

Put me down for the Denny Crane Party then! This scenario has problems though, now a party can win with 25.1% of the vote and the couintry as a whole could be ran by a well organized crackpot minority.

 

[Further]

The Tea Party is all about taking back the republican party. It wasn't a religious party when Reagan or GHW Bush were president.

See this for yourself:

http://www.teaparty-platform.com/

What exactly in the tea party platform do you disagree with and why?

The Tea Party began like that and I think had good and honerable goals. But in the 2010 election, the people they rallied behind were de facto zealots. Those are the people who have made all the news with the rape comments and they are the ones who have been pushing for stronger anti-abortion legislation.

The religious right took over the Republican party and they have now taken over the Tea Party. The thing is, the religious right is a very motivated group with money and method to mobalize their base. Where are the Reagan Democrats? They are waiting for a more middle of the road party. I don't know what the answer is because I would expect if another party picks up steam, they will be either corrupted by the far left or the far right, there is precious few people in the middle who are willing to devote their lives to moderation.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't think the idea of disconnecting social issues from the Republican party really works. You can't have a party that has no opinion whatsoever about social issues.

Maybe what we need is four parties:

Big government, social conservative (Bush/Romney party)
Big government, social liberal (Obama party)
Small government, social conservative (Palin/Ryan party)
Small government, social liberal (Denny Crane party)

Would be interesting to see the party registration figures.

barfo

I'm not sure Palin is the social conservative you suggest.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-11-palin-cover_N.htm

Since Republican presidential candidate John McCain picked Palin as his running mate, much attention has been focused on her deeply conservative social views — including her opposition to abortion even in cases of rape and incest and her attendance at a church that promotes the "transformation" of homosexuals through prayer.

But in her 21 months as governor, Palin has taken few steps to advance culturally conservative causes. Instead, after she knocked off an incumbent amid an influence-peddling scandal linked to the oil industry, Palin pursued a populist agenda that toughened ethics rules and raised taxes on oil and gas companies.

And she did so while relying on Democratic votes in the Legislature.

"She has governed from the center," says Rebecca Braun, author of Alaska Budget Report, a non-partisan political newsletter. "She has in some small ways supported her religious views — for example, proposing money to continue the office of faith-based and community initiatives — but she has actually been conspicuously absent on social issues. She came in with a big oil and gas agenda, which really required Democratic allies to get through."

John Bitney, who was Palin's issues adviser during the 2006 campaign and later worked as her legislative liaison before she fired him, says, "She's a very devout Christian. That's a part of her core. But we never put those issues forward in the campaign. She takes the positions she takes because that's who she is, but when she came into office, that wasn't her agenda."

 

[barfo]

and the couintry as a whole could be ran by a well organized crackpot minority.

Well, the libertarians wouldn't necessarily win...

barfo