America becoming socialist?

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Great read, I enjoyed it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Cognitive dissonance simply means most brains cannot see past their own narrow ideologies. They dismiss any data that contradicts their old ideologies. Whether you're a conservative Republican or liberal Democrat, you only hear what you already know is "true." All else is tuned out.</div>

This is soooooo true. Ideologues, as I call them, are often square pegs in round holes (or just a-holes)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 25 2008, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Great read, I enjoyed it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Cognitive dissonance simply means most brains cannot see past their own narrow ideologies. They dismiss any data that contradicts their old ideologies. Whether you're a conservative Republican or liberal Democrat, you only hear what you already know is "true." All else is tuned out.</div>

This is soooooo true. Ideologues, as I call them, are often square pegs in round holes (or just a-holes)
</div>

Cognitive dissonance reminds me a bit of confirmation bias & denial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

It makes me wonder what ideologues are called on Fox News? lol.
 
If you get a chance, watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit program this week on the green movement. Hilarious as usual and an interesting look at ideologues.

One of my favorite parts was about a woman who runs a carbon credit WWW site. People actually give her money for these credits that she just makes up out of thin air. She has a carbon footprint calculator on her WWW site that may as well be random numbers.

Another good bit had one of Penn & Teller's employees working a parking lot. She wore a vest with CCC on it, Carbon Credit Coalition, and she had a clipboard and a calculator. She'd walk up to people as they were coming and going from the stores in the shopping center and ask them "how far did you drive to get here?" or "is that coffee light or dark roast?" Then she'd punch in a bunch of numbers in the calculator and tell them "your carbon footprint for driving here or drinking that coffee is $1.75" and the people actually forked over money to her. One woman at the end of the show asked if she could write a check for $20 to make up for all the carbon she produced in the last week.

What utter morons. Ideologues.
 
I'm anxious to see the aforementioned doofus would charge me for getting a 24 oz low carb Monster every morning driving a pickup that gets 17.5 MPG in the city. The sheer idiocy of Carbon credits and cap and trade make ill and is a great idea for another thread.

Don't get me started about those who pay this lady. If you feel so guilty; conserve rather than get scammed.

After reading Liberal Fascism & then this article, its appears we are slowly & sadly making this transition towards socialism.
 
What channel and time is Penn and Teller's stuff on, Denny?
 
P&T did another one about recycling that revealed some things. It costs more to use recycled than it does to make from scratch. Another thread idea...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 26 2008, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>P&T did another one about recycling that revealed some things. It costs more to use recycled than it does to make from scratch. Another thread idea...</div>

And that is the problem with society - people worry more about the internal costs (i.e. money and benefit etc) rather than the external costs to the World and community. It might cost more money, but it is better for the environment and is therefore worthwhile. Obviously it does depend upon the exact price difference but as far as I am aware it is not that great.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chingy0007 @ Jul 26 2008, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 26 2008, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>P&T did another one about recycling that revealed some things. It costs more to use recycled than it does to make from scratch. Another thread idea...</div>

And that is the problem with society - people worry more about the internal costs (i.e. money and benefit etc) rather than the external costs to the World and community. It might cost more money, but it is better for the environment and is therefore worthwhile. Obviously it does depend upon the exact price difference but as far as I am aware it is not that great.
</div>

Using common sense & cost effective approach, when you shop (for anything), will somewhat minimize IMO the whole recycling/conservation movement.
 
As for recycling glass, I really don't see the point. They make glass from sand. Sand is everywhere. We aren't going to ever run out of sand. If it's cheaper to make glassware brand new, then that is exactly what should be done.
 
More importantly:

China becoming Democratic?

The world is changing rapidly, and it's getting quite scary to be honest.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Main Event @ Jul 27 2008, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>More importantly:

China becoming Democratic?

The world is changing rapidly, and it's getting quite scary to be honest.</div>

I agree. Though, what about France "reforming" and moving right of Center?

In the book Liberal Fascism, it talks about a "third way" of government. Initially, I perceived this as a blending of democrat and repblican philopsophies into a populist approach.

Then, it dawned on me yesterday, what if by "third way" if its meant a hybrid of socialism and capitalism? Does that mean the social democracies of Western Europe are harbingers of things to come?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Jul 27 2008, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Does that mean the social democracies of Western Europe are harbingers of things to come?</div>

Yes.
 
P&T Bullshit is on Showtime

The theme of that show was "Green Guilt."
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Jul 27 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Main Event @ Jul 27 2008, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>More importantly:

China becoming Democratic?

The world is changing rapidly, and it's getting quite scary to be honest.</div>

I agree. Though, what about France "reforming" and moving right of Center?

In the book Liberal Fascism, it talks about a "third way" of government. Initially, I perceived this as a blending of democrat and repblican philopsophies into a populist approach.

Then, it dawned on me yesterday, what if by "third way" if its meant a hybrid of socialism and capitalism? Does that mean the social democracies of Western Europe are harbingers of things to come?

</div>

It's basically what we already are. All the modern nation states are some sort of Social(ist) Democracy.

What's really great about socialism is I can sit on my ass and drink iced tea by the pool while getting everything I need for free as a public service. At the same time, ROTR can work his ass off so I won't have to.

Neat.

It's effectively what's happened in Europe, where they traditionally have had 10%+ unemployment rates even in the best of times.

Something to think about. The USA has a population of ~300M and a workforce of maybe 120M. That means 180M people in the US don't work. Not that I think everyone should work, it does mean those 120M are carrying a lot of the load.
 
Just watch the video in my signature.

The world will eventually be ruled by one leader. Currently there are plans being drafted to make Mexico, USA, and Canada one whole country, and likewise with Europe and the EU. I know this sounds far-fetched but just wait and see.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Main Event)</div><div class='quotemain'>The world will eventually be ruled by one leader. Currently there are plans being drafted to make Mexico, USA, and Canada one whole country, and likewise with Europe and the EU. I know this sounds far-fetched but just wait and see.</div>

What in the name of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, & Hulk Hogan do you mean? I know The new world order is gaining ground. Don't tell Glenn Beck; his head might explode. On 2nd thought, let me go find some way to contact him.

Denny has a point about only 40% of the US working. Though, can you really count kids (junior high & younger)?

I guess I'd could see the transition ramping up here especially after the housing and Wall St bailouts, but, now I'm discouraged as Denny pointed out we already are a semi-socialist country.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thomas Jefferson)</div><div class='quotemain'>The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.</div>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Jul 27 2008, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Main Event)</div><div class='quotemain'>The world will eventually be ruled by one leader. Currently there are plans being drafted to make Mexico, USA, and Canada one whole country, and likewise with Europe and the EU. I know this sounds far-fetched but just wait and see.</div>

What in the name of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, & Hulk Hogan do you mean? I know The new world order is gaining ground. Don't tell Glenn Beck; his head might explode. On 2nd thought, let me go find some way to contact him.

Denny has a point about only 40% of the US working. Though, can you really count kids (junior high & younger)?

I guess I'd could see the transition ramping up here especially after the housing and Wall St bailouts, but, now I'm discouraged as Denny pointed out we already are a semi-socialist country.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thomas Jefferson)</div><div class='quotemain'>The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.</div>

</div>

Consider in 1900, 95% of the population worked, including kids - on family farms or in coal mines for $.10/day.

I think you absolutely can count kids. Even so, there's maybe 30M or 40M kids, so still a huge % of people who don't work.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Jul 27 2008, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What in the name of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, & Hulk Hogan do you mean? I know The new world order is gaining ground.</div>

You forgot Hollywood Hogan, and his beard that seemed to be drawn on with a sharpie.
 
I'll read this article tomorrow at work (might as well do something!). It sounds interesting.

I've always thought that Western democracies have stagnated because people take participatory democracy for granted. Either they're apathetic, too self-absorbed to care, or so firmly committed to their own viewpoint that they'll shelter themselves from any other perspectives.
 
^^^ That or they just stop having kids. When you have to farm to eat, you might have 10 kids to help out. When you live in a $3M studio apartment in a city, you don't have the room, nor want the expense of kids.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 27 2008, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've always thought that Western democracies have stagnated because people take participatory democracy for granted. Either they're apathetic, too self-absorbed to care, or so firmly committed to their own viewpoint that they'll shelter themselves from any other perspectives.</div>

I sort of see this going on with how our different states and regions are represented in Congress. Population distribution among all 50 states really varies. There are some sparsely populated states in between NY and CA that get far more representation in Congress than I am comfortable with. Often, they feel what is good for them, must be good for us and vice versa. This is also a problem on a smaller level, like city interest vs. rural interest within individual states. There are a lot of folks living in a little bubble, far removed from major cities, and trying to tell others what to do, even though their tax burden is nowhere near the same. I would love to amend the Constitution and give Montana one Senator, and California 3, for example.
 
California has it's proportional representation in the HOUSE. The Senate is supposed to give each state equal representation.

The people in the flyover states think Californians and Northesterners have no clue what their lifestyles are about and resent one-size fits all kinds of rules and regulations that city folk think are best.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 28 2008, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Senate is supposed to give each state equal representation.</div>

Right, I don't think they deserve it, hence my call for amending it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 27 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 27 2008, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've always thought that Western democracies have stagnated because people take participatory democracy for granted. Either they're apathetic, too self-absorbed to care, or so firmly committed to their own viewpoint that they'll shelter themselves from any other perspectives.</div>

I sort of see this going on with how our different states and regions are represented in Congress. Population distribution among all 50 states really varies. There are some sparsely populated states in between NY and CA that get far more representation in Congress than I am comfortable with. Often, they feel what is good for them, must be good for us and vice versa. This is also a problem on a smaller level, like city interest vs. rural interest within individual states. There are a lot of folks living in a little bubble, far removed from major cities, and trying to tell others what to do, even though their tax burden is nowhere near the same. I would love to amend the Constitution and give Montana one Senator, and California 3, for example.
</div>
I think its a problem with almost every democracy, but one that's magnified in the North American ones. Just ask any Canadian that has to see a Quebec Nationalist party come out with 30% of the seats in every general election, despite that province's voters making up way less of the total voting population.

pure self interest - social empathy = tyranny of the majority ftl.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 27 2008, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've always thought that Western democracies have stagnated because people take participatory democracy for granted. Either they're apathetic, too self-absorbed to care, or so firmly committed to their own viewpoint that they'll shelter themselves from any other perspectives.</div>

I can't disagree.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 27 2008, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 27 2008, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've always thought that Western democracies have stagnated because people take participatory democracy for granted. Either they're apathetic, too self-absorbed to care, or so firmly committed to their own viewpoint that they'll shelter themselves from any other perspectives.</div>

I sort of see this going on with how our different states and regions are represented in Congress. Population distribution among all 50 states really varies. There are some sparsely populated states in between NY and CA that get far more representation in Congress than I am comfortable with. Often, they feel what is good for them, must be good for us and vice versa. This is also a problem on a smaller level, like city interest vs. rural interest within individual states. There are a lot of folks living in a little bubble, far removed from major cities, and trying to tell others what to do, even though their tax burden is nowhere near the same. I would love to amend the Constitution and give Montana one Senator, and California 3, for example.
</div>

Personally, I have no problem with 2 senate seats per state. But, 3 congressional districts here in Utah? The 2nd district where I live is the most liberal and 67% of the people voted for W in '04.

You could rework the system so instead of a congressman for every 500,000 (I believe thats the ratio) to 1:750000.

A unicameral legislative branch would not work IMO. Having fewer elected officials might not be suich a bad idea.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 28 2008, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The people in the flyover states think Californians and Northesterners have no clue what their lifestyles are about and resent one-size fits all kinds of rules and regulations that city folk think are best.</div>

I think that works both ways.

What really sucks is when your representative loses touch w/ who he represents. Let hear it for lobbyists and no term limits.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Jul 28 2008, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jul 28 2008, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The people in the flyover states think Californians and Northesterners have no clue what their lifestyles are about and resent one-size fits all kinds of rules and regulations that city folk think are best.</div>

I think that works both ways.

What really sucks is when your representative loses touch w/ who he represents. Let hear it for lobbyists and no term limits.
</div>

Congresscritters tend to be fairly accessible. Senators, not so much.

At one time, congressmen were awarded per 10,000 or 100,000 constituents. As the country got bigger, there'd have been a House of thousands of members and it'd be to unwieldy. So they made the cap at 435 and use a proportional system to allocate them among the states; every state has to have at least 1.
 
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