Are the Lakers that good?

[Rastapopoulos]

...I'm inclined to say "yes" from what I've seen of them, because they play such great team ball. It's like Phil Jackson has to be with a team for a while before they completely master the triangle. The best Lakers team of the past two decades was the one that breezed through the playoffs losing only once to the Sixers in the finals - in overtime. This one looks like it's got the same kind of unity. Now, it doesn't have the talent, but Bryant isn't having to work as hard (only on 33 mpg) and if anything, the scrubs are playing better as a team. Lakers' fans seem to think that they have a wealth of talent, but really - what other teams would want Sasha Vujacic? What other teams DID want Radmanovic or Ariza? And Farmar is _okay_ but I don't think he's exactly starter quality. Even Bynum has been way overhyped in this system. But it doesn't matter: Tex Winter has always kind of preferred it when the scrubs play the triangle because they actually run it - they don't break out of it as Jordan and co. liked to do. (Remember the final game of the '92 finals when Portland were way ahead and they rested the starters, and people like Rory Sparrow ran Terry and co. into the ground?)

Reasons for optimism: they've played a pretty weak schedule: not as many games as most, and 7 out of 12 at home. Two of their games were against the Clippers (so one of those "away" games was really at home).

They were looking pretty dominant last year right up until Boston broke them into little pieces. Is that the youth?

A lot of their players are kind of fragile. Ariza in particular, but also Bynum and to some extent Gasol.

Thoughts from Blazers fans?

 

[MrJayremmie]

Add Ariza, Bynum and a dedication to defense to last years NBA finals team, and i'd say yes. They are at least a 60 win team, i'd guess around mid-60s.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I think they're a good reguliar-season team, and barring injury would be the #1 seed. I was lower on Bynum than he's performed, though I don't think he's "great" caliber yet. I think it's good for the L*kers that they can rest K*be much more this year.

I think that it'll be tougher in the playoffs, when a team can game-plan 7 games for them. But it wouldn't surprise me to see them win this year.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

I could care less. I just want the Blazers and any other team to beat them by 40+ points every night until the end of time.

 

[Dumpy]

I could care less. I just want the Blazers and any other team to beat them by 40+ points every night until the end of time.

starting tonight

 

[SodaPopinski]

They're good, but they're not 11-1 good. They've benefited from a cupcake early season schedule. I think we'll see them slip up a bit when they have to go on an extended eastern swing.

I still think they're the team to beat this year. I'd love to see them in the playoffs though. To get them in the RG, where they've struggled for the last several years, would be nice. I'd like our chances if we were able to steal one of the first two games at Staples.

-Pop

 

[La Bomba]

Add Ariza, Bynum and a dedication to defense to last years NBA finals team, and i'd say yes. They are at least a 60 win team, i'd guess around mid-60s.

Agreed.

 

[DaRizzle]

Now, it doesn't have the talent, but Bryant isn't having to work as hard (only on 33 mpg) and if anything, the scrubs are playing better as a team. Lakers' fans seem to think that they have a wealth of talent, but really - what other teams would want Sasha Vujacic?

Our scrubs arent scrubs, they are the 2nd unit. I honestly think your hatred of Sasha is making your opinion bias. If he wasnt on the Lakers I would hate him too, no disagreement there. According to him he has only fouled maybe 5 times in his career. He gets very pouty to the refs. Once you get past those things he is a VERY serviceable backup. He provides instant offense when he gets in the game and he has very pestering (aka:annoying) defense. If he gets a clean look from 3 then watch out cause he will burn you. Perfect backup for Kobe cause he keeps the floor spread. He pisses off other players constantly and he does it on purpose. Anything to throw others off of their game. On the flip side if he ever dribbles the ball just assume its a turnover...thank god he usually realizes this.

What other teams DID want Radmanovic

Yeah, I was apprehensive when he signed and he surly left some to be desired. BUT! This year something seemed to has changed with him on the defensive side. He isnt lost anymore and is actually playing decent defense which is HUGE. He isnt a complete liability anymore which is why he was able to get into the starting lineup over Ariza. Vlad could always shoot (except for two years ago when a coach accidentally to muscle in his shooting hand). With not having to worry about his D he became the obvious choice for the starting lineup.

or Ariza?

Ill admit when the Lakers traded Cook and Evans for Ariza I thought it was only a financial move. I was just ecstatic to get rid of Cook. I had never heard of Ariza. Well Ariza surprised all of us. Usually Phil wouldn't implement a young player like that in the middle of the year but because of a Luke Walton injury at the time Ariza was able to showcase his stuff and he produced immediately. He was never asked to shoot before coming to the Lakers and he had ugly form to prove it but he actually did relatively well. After the season in the exit interview they told him they would give him significant time next year and to just work on his jumper. He took those words to heart and you can see significant improvement this year. He is on par if not BETTER than Kobe on D. The guy is a game changer because of his D.

And Farmar is _okay_ but I don't think he's exactly starter quality.

Well I think this is debatable. The one thing that supports your argument is his FT shooting. 69% is unacceptable. You cant be in tight games and have your guard shooting FTs that poorly. On the other side he would flourish on say Golden State or PHX....or our 2nd unit. Our 2nd unit is supposed to be VERY uptempo and they are. Farmar is almost as good around the rim as Tony Parker.

Even Bynum has been way over hyped in this system.

I think there are just too many pieces around Bynum to make his offensive game be showcased. The Lakers got used to playing with Gasol and they are still trying to implement two big men the most efficiently. Bynum and Pau have barley scratched the surface and how good they can be together. The one part Bynum has gotten even better this year is his defense. I think he is 2nd in the league in blocks at the moment and alters 15 other shots a game. He also gobbles the boards. He needs to get his legs underneath him more because it sees he tends to not perform as well in the 2nd half. I think that wont be a problem by the all star deadline or earlier.


...and thats the word

 

[Minstrel]

I think the Lakers are this good. They were the number one seed in the West last year and I think they've separated themselves this year, with having both Bynum and Gasol and their new defensive system. This Lakers team is proving Phil Jackson's brilliance. In the past, his detractors always said, "Well, he either had Jordan and Pippen or he had Shaq and Kobe." This year, he has talent, but only Kobe Bryant is a dominating talent. It's his game-planning that has turned them into a defensive powerhouse. He's also leveraging the talent he has on the offensive end really well. They're really without weakness. Ariza, Radmanovich and Farmar aren't game-changing talent, but they have strengths that Phil Jackson is adept at getting the most out of, while minimizing their limitations.

I think they'll be the easy #1 seed and be only minimally challenged in the playoffs. I'd anticipate them meeting Boston in the Finals and winning in 5 or 6 games.

 

[andalusian]

I do not think we can really judge the Lakers until we see them against the Cavs and Celtics. This is the real measure for them. Are they among the best 3 teams in the league? No doubt. Are they good enough to be better than the Celtics and the Cavs? I am not sure yet.

 

[DaRizzle]

I think they'll be the easy #1 seed and be only minimally challenged in the playoffs. I'd anticipate them meeting Boston in the Finals and winning in 5 or 6 games.

Oh dear god I hope you are right...I dont know what I would do if the Lakers lost in the playoffs before the finals. Then if they get to the fianls they will have to face either the Cavs or Celtics so losing there = Lebron>Kobe or Celtics>Lakers....ugh...I dont think I could deal with the 2nd one again.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

I think the Lakers are this good. They were the number one seed in the West last year and I think they've separated themselves this year, with having both Bynum and Gasol and their new defensive system. This Lakers team is proving Phil Jackson's brilliance. In the past, his detractors always said, "Well, he either had Jordan and Pippen or he had Shaq and Kobe." This year, he has talent, but only Kobe Bryant is a dominating talent. It's his game-planning that has turned them into a defensive powerhouse. He's also leveraging the talent he has on the offensive end really well. They're really without weakness. Ariza, Radmanovich and Farmar aren't game-changing talent, but they have strengths that Phil Jackson is adept at getting the most out of, while minimizing their limitations.

I think they'll be the easy #1 seed and be only minimally challenged in the playoffs. I'd anticipate them meeting Boston in the Finals and winning in 5 or 6 games.

There's something wrong with you.

 

[DaRizzle]

There's something wrong with you.

Serious...damn Mistrel's objectivity

 

[Minstrel]

Then if they get to the fianls they will have to face either the Cavs or Celtics so losing there = Lebron>Kobe or Celtics>Lakers....ugh...I dont think I could deal with the 2nd one again.

Well, I think regardless of the outcome, Lebron is better than Kobe. Kobe is brilliant, but LeBron, as amazing as he already was, has actually become even better this year. His productivity is off the charts. It's early, obviously, but so far he's playing at a rate that would challenge the greatest single season performances ever.

James is most definitely becoming the Michael Jordan of his generation. The clear best player and, barring injury, should insert himself into the debate of best player ever by the end of his career.

 

[huevonkiller]

Well, I think regardless of the outcome, Lebron is better than Kobe. Kobe is brilliant, but LeBron, as amazing as he already was, has actually become even better this year. His productivity is off the charts. It's early, obviously, but so far he's playing at a rate that would challenge the greatest single season performances ever.

James is most definitely becoming the Michael Jordan of his generation. The clear best player and, barring injury, should insert himself into the debate of best player ever by the end of his career.

I think James, Paul, and Wade's PER will fall below 30 but they're having great seasons obviously.

 

[Minstrel]

I think James, Paul, and Wade's PER will fall below 30 but they're having great seasons obviously.

I think Paul's and Wade's will. LeBron James had a 29.1 PER last year, so I think he has a solid chance of posting a 30+ PER this season. Whether he'll remain at nearly 33 PER...well, that would be insane.

 

[DaRizzle]

Well, I think regardless of the outcome, Lebron is better than Kobe. Kobe is brilliant, but LeBron, as amazing as he already was, has actually become even better this year. His productivity is off the charts. It's early, obviously, but so far he's playing at a rate that would challenge the greatest single season performances ever.

James is most definitely becoming the Michael Jordan of his generation. The clear best player and, barring injury, should insert himself into the debate of best player ever by the end of his career.

Everything about Lebron is better than Kobe except clutch shots and FT's....and thats the most important part. Kobe's J>Lebrons J all the time.

I guess the best way to explain it IMO is Lebron over Kobe in 85% of overall basketball skill/mind. Kobe is the best by far in the most important 15%...the clutch. Its close either way

 

[Really Lost One]

nah they suck.

 

[Minstrel]

Everything about Lebron is better than Kobe except clutch shots and FT's....and thats the most important part. Kobe's J>Lebrons J all the time.

I guess the best way to explain it IMO is Lebron over Kobe in 85% of overall basketball skill/mind. Kobe is the best by far in the most important 15%...the clutch. Its close either way

Eh, I don't believe that there's such a thing as "clutch power" (that certain players get better in the clutch). And I don't think James has troubles in the clutch. He's had famous last second shots. Bryant has played with better teammates, notably Shaq, which has allowed him to get cleaner looks in fourth quarters. James has, until this year, had remarkably poor supporting casts. Defenses were essentially focusing entirely on him.

The advantage I'd give Kobe is on defense. But it's not enough to overcome James' productivity advantage.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

One thing's for sure: in head-to-heads, LeBrown pwns Kobe. So the Lakers better hope the Cavs (who are as much better than they were last year as the Lakers are) don't make it to the finals.

And I defer to Jerry Krause: it's Tex Winter's coaching genius. Phil Jackson is just there to look deep and work the refs and the press.

 

[Minstrel]

And I defer to Jerry Krause: it's Tex Winter's coaching genius. Phil Jackson is just there to look deep and work the refs and the press.

The triangle scheme is Tex Winters'. Adapting it for the actual talents given has been Phil Jackson's job. You can't just throw Tex Winters' book at Jordan, Pippen and Rodman or at Shaq, Kobe, Fox and Grant and expect success. You need to actually have the ability to fit the offense to the specific players.

And his work on the Lakers' defense has nothing to do with Winters. The Lakers' defense has been incredible, and that's with no individually brilliant defenders.

 

[tlongII]

The Lakers are the best team in the league.


But we can beat them.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Our scrubs arent scrubs,

That's funny: most scrubs are actually scrubs.

I honestly think your hatred of Sasha is making your opinion biased.

As there isn't anyone who doesn't hate Vujacic, it would be impossible to tell. But to be fair, I only hate him: Trevor Ariza despises him.

Yeah, I was apprehensive when he signed and he surly left some to be desired.

Exactly - he sucked. The reason why you like him now is because of good coaching and a system that can use one-dimensional players. (See Hodges, Craig.)

Ill admit when the Lakers traded Cook and Evans for Ariza I thought it was only a financial move. I was just ecstatic to get rid of Cook. I had never heard of Ariza. Well Ariza surprised all of us.

Not Ed. O! He was always an Ariza-backer.

Ariza was always a great athlete, but he was never healthy. Didn't he have a collapsed lung or something either coming out of college or in college? He's certainly looking good for the Lakers this year, particularly if his early 3-point shooting isn't just a blip.

On the other side he would flourish on say Golden State or PHX

I think you mean NY not Phoenix. And how many players has that been said about? Every too-short gunner or flashy passer is supposed to be someone who'd just explode for Nelson or D'Antoni.

Farmar is almost as good around the rim as Tony Parker.

Try to retain SOME measure of credibility!

You know who I think is the most underrated Laker? Derek Fisher. He completely turned the Lakers around, because he knew the triangle, just as Ron Harper did when he was a young'un. God help you if Fisher gets injured and you have to rely on Farmar.

I think there are just too many pieces around Bynum to make his offensive game be showcased.

I'm hoping he thinks the same way and thinks he can flourish elsewhere. He's in for a rude surprise if he follows through.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The triangle scheme is Tex Winters'. Adapting it for the actual talents given has been Phil Jackson's job. You can't just throw Tex Winters' book at Jordan, Pippen and Rodman or at Shaq, Kobe, Fox and Grant and expect success. You need to actually have the ability to fit the offense to the specific players.

Phil has certain talents, to be sure. Manipulation chief among them. And that's an important element of coaching. And it is interesting that the triangle has never worked for any other NBA coach (see Jim Cleamons in Dallas, for example).

And his work on the Lakers' defense has nothing to do with Winters.

No, he got his defense from Bob Bach. Whom he stabbed in the back. Or so the story goes.

The Lakers' defense has been incredible, and that's with no individually brilliant defenders.

Let's see how it keeps up. It wasn't so hot against Sacto in their last game, and it's easy to have good D the first time you meet teams if you have enough junk systems, but over a series, I think you can't get away with it (unless your team members are actually telepathic).

 

[Minstrel]

No, he got his defense from Bob Bach. Whom he stabbed in the back. Or so the story goes.

Do you mean Johnny Bach? Bach was clearly important to the Bulls, but the defense the Lakers are playing is different from the Bulls' defense. The Bulls had several good to great defenders and had a unique defensive presence in Pippen, and a weakness in the middle. The Lakers have defensive strength in the middle, no Pippen and no great defenders and only one good defensive starter in Kobe and one good defender off the bench in Ariza. He's not simply using the old Bulls' defense.

 

[DaRizzle]

And his work on the Lakers' defense has nothing to do with Winters. The Lakers' defense has been incredible, and that's with no individually brilliant defenders.

FYI...this year at the very beginning Phil made Kurt Rambis our "defensive coordinator"...its Phil credit to focus on D more, Kurt's actually implemented it.

 

[DaRizzle]

That's funny: most scrubs are actually scrubs.

Farmar, Sasha, Odom, and Ariza could ALL be starters on lesser teams(not together but dispersed among different teams). Thats why I dont call them scrubs. Our 2nd unit kills other teams 2nd units and usually expand leads when the first team is resting on the bench.

I think you mean NY not Phoenix. And how many players has that been said about? Every too-short gunner or flashy passer is supposed to be someone who'd just explode for Nelson or D'Antoni.

You are selling Farmar short...really

Try to retain SOME measure of credibility!

I was talking about ONE aspect of the game and I didnt even say "on par" I said "almost". Farmar can slice to the rim with the best of them and has high difficulty shots around the rim down pat.

You know who I think is the most underrated Laker? Derek Fisher. He completely turned the Lakers around, because he knew the triangle, just as Ron Harper did when he was a young'un. God help you if Fisher gets injured and you have to rely on Farmar.

Derek Fisher is a glue guy for sure but for some reason he has decided he is gonna take ill advised shots for some reason. Im not against him shooting but he has made some dumb decisions latly which is very unlike him.

 

[MARIS61]

They suck.

They always have.

They always will.

They suck more than usual this year tho.

 

[KingSpeed]

Lakers have had a totally easy schedule so far. We've played 10 road games. They've played 5. They're a 55 win team tops.

 

[¹²³]

They suck more than usual this year tho.

That's because this year they are really good.