Bayless and Westbrook thoughts

[SpanishFly]

I think they are an interesting comparison, drafted same yr and both after 1 yr of college and limited time playing PG, and both are perhaps thought of as combo guards. One, Westbrook, got a lot of minutes from day one and is a starter with OKC with the following stats

G MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OFF DEF TOT STL BLK TO PF AST PTS

24 34.5 133-340 .391 19-64 .297 99-124 .798 1.5 3.3 4.8 .92 .54 3.54 2.75 6.7 6.0

Interesting to me how poor a shooter he is compared to Bayless so far and he has a high turnover rate. He is known as a good defender. I wonder what Bayless's stats would be now IF he got the same playing time and minutes from the get go as Westbrook did. If Westbrook can start as PG for OKC why can't Bayless do that here, especially when he plays with a PG type SG in Roy?

Here's a Westbrook thread from OKC board, maybe not as good a defender as I thought.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=334&t=967835

 

[MIXUM]

OH GOD STOP. any GM in the NBA would trade bayless for Westbrook 1000 times and thne another 1000 times.

This is getting insane.

 

[SpanishFly]

OH GOD STOP. any GM in the NBA would trade bayless for Westbrook 1000 times and thne another 1000 times.

This is getting insane.

They likely would, but the question is would they "IF" Bayless has played as many NBA minutes as Westbrook. I know it's total speculation but we will likely have better answer's at seasons end.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I think they are an interesting comparison, drafted same yr and both after 1 yr of college and limited time playing PG, and both are perhaps thought of as combo guards. One, Westbrook, got a lot of minutes from day one and is a starter with OKC with the following stats

G MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OFF DEF TOT STL BLK TO PF AST PTS

24 34.5 133-340 .391 19-64 .297 99-124 .798 1.5 3.3 4.8 .92 .54 3.54 2.75 6.7 6.0

Interesting to me how poor a shooter he is compared to Bayless so far and he has a high turnover rate. He is known as a good defender. I wonder what Bayless's stats would be now IF he got the same playing time and minutes from the get go as Westbrook did. If Westbrook can start as PG for OKC why can't Bayless do that here, especially when he plays with a PG type SG in Roy?

Here's a Westbrook thread from OKC board, maybe not as good a defender as I thought.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=334&t=967835

Technically Westbrook played two years at UCLA, but I agree he can play PG with Roy.

 

[SpanishFly]

Technically Westbrook played two years at UCLA, but I agree he can play PG with Roy.

Thx, thought it was one, that just shows how well Bayless is showing given his limited time.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I don't know what Bayless' stats would be if he had the same amount of PT as Westbrook, but all I will say is that situation matters. But even if roles were reversed I think it's likely that Jerryd would still have struggled last year because most of the flaws in his game that kept him off the court were things that were unlikely to be improved just with improved minutes -- tunnel vision on drives, playing out of control and a jumpshot that was too slow on the release for the NBA.

Jerryd this year looks like almost a completely different player to me, he's playing under control, he's picking his spots better and he's actually playing a better team game. He's still not a pure playmaking point guard, but he's making good passes and he's not turning the ball over.

 

[RR7]

I think if you replace Bayless with most of the players drafted ahead of him, he could easily average 16 a night right now. Bayless on the Clippers? Thunder? Grizzlies? Knicks!?

 

[SpanishFly]

What blows me away is that Bayless is shooting 53%! I know he won't stay there but if he stays in the high 40's and shoots 35-37% (there now in small sample size) from 3 that would be awesome.

 

[RR7]

I don't know what Bayless' stats would be if he had the same amount of PT as Westbrook, but all I will say is that situation matters. If roles were reversed I think it's likely that Jerryd would still have struggled last year because most of the flaws in his game that kept him off the court were things that were unlikely to be improved just with improved minutes -- tunnel vision on drives, playing out of control and a jumpshot that was too slow on the release for the NBA.

Jerryd this year looks like almost a completely different player to me, he's playing under control, he's picking his spots better and he's actually playing a better team game. He's still not a pure playmaking point guard, but he's making good passes and he's not turning the ball over.

I agree 100%, that long term, this has likely turned Bayless into a better player. It is funny how that would essentially be Nate doing something right, by keeping him benched last season. And making him work on his game. But I know nobody would want to admit that.

 

[SpanishFly]

I agree 100%, that long term, this has likely turned Bayless into a better player. It is funny how that would essentially be Nate doing something right, by keeping him benched last season. And making him work on his game. But I know nobody would want to admit that.

I think this is a very valid point, the control/decision making improvement he has shown this yr vs last is remarkable.

 

[LittleAlex]

I agree 100%, that long term, this has likely turned Bayless into a better player. It is funny how that would essentially be Nate doing something right, by keeping him benched last season. And making him work on his game. But I know nobody would want to admit that.

Sometimes getting everything handed to you hurts your game.

For another example look at Brandon Jennings. He struggled on the bench all last year in Europe. He had to work like crazy on his game just to get on the floor.

Now look at him this year. I don't think he would be even close to as good without that experiance last year.

Just like Bayless wouldn't be as good if he hadn't struggled to get pt last season.

 

[hasoos]

Sometimes getting everything handed to you hurts your game.

For another example look at Brandon Jennings. He struggled on the bench all last year in Europe. He had to work like crazy on his game just to get on the floor.

Now look at him this year. I don't think he would be even close to as good without that experiance last year.

Just like Bayless wouldn't be as good if he hadn't struggled to get pt last season.

I disagree. I tribute it more or less to coaches who didn't want to committ playing time to a player who was only going to be there a year. You don't go from being a scrub in europe to a high level point guard in the NBA in a 3 month off season. The talent has to be there from the start. The work ethic is what improves you from year to year.

 

[Luther]

One thing we know about Bayless is his work ethic is top of the line. Pair that with his ridiculous athletic ability and its inevitable that he's going to be a good player, maybe great. Monta Ellis Jr.?

 

[handiman]

I think it's perfectly valid for the Nate detractors to admit that he's proven to be quite good at shaping young talent, while still holding onto the notion that he's a bit lost with what to do with it after it matures.

 

[hasoos]

OH GOD STOP. any GM in the NBA would trade bayless for Westbrook 1000 times and thne another 1000 times.

This is getting insane.

I have been insane for years. Just remember its the folks who can't handle being insane, who do stuff like go and kill a bunch of people, who make the rest of us look bad.

Now that being said, your making Westbrook out to be much better than he is. Bayless has not had the opportunity he has to make his mark. He was more highly touted than Westbrook in college and in draft projection, even though it didn't turn ou that way on draft day. The facts are that the rookies who go to bad teams and get thrown into the fire right away get to make a bigger mark on the league from the start of their career. Westbrook had that exact situation. Bayless did not.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

I think his ceiling is Steve Francis minus the rebounding.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Sometimes getting everything handed to you hurts your game.

For another example look at Brandon Jennings. He struggled on the bench all last year in Europe. He had to work like crazy on his game just to get on the floor.

Now look at him this year. I don't think he would be even close to as good without that experiance last year.

Just like Bayless wouldn't be as good if he hadn't struggled to get pt last season.

Speaking of which, I like to watch Thunder games on league pass occasionally and I think that Westbrook being the starter from the jump has probably hurt his chances of really fully tapping into his full potential. He's just as out of control, just as janky with his jumper and error prone running the point as he was last year. He makes up for a lot his errors with hustle and being a defensive pest, but wow, he is definitely the guy you want handling the rock if you are the opposition. The thunder are probably better off with Harden handling the ball and being their playmaker and initiator.

I don't know who is going to end up with the better career, but right now the gap between Jerryd and RW isn't as great as Mixum imagines it.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I think his ceiling is Steve Francis minus the rebounding.

Do you mean Steve Francis "Plus" the rebounding? Because I think Bayless will be a decent rebounder for a PG.

 

[hasoos]

I think his ceiling is Steve Francis minus the rebounding.

That is a low ceiling IMO, because Francis was an underachiever and a quitter in my book.

IMO he is more of a Billups type. His passing skills won't probably max out until about his 4th year in the league as he gets more time and gets familiar with the players he runs with. Billups didn't break 5 assist per game until his 6th year in the league. He didn't break .400 from the field until his 4th year in the league. Bayless is well ahead of that right now. That is fucking scary.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Do you mean Steve Francis "Plus" the rebounding? Because I think Bayless will be a decent rebounder for a PG.

Francis was a hell of a rebounder from the PG position. 00-01 and the 01-02 season Francis grabbed 7 boards a game and a career average of 5.3.

 

[Cake]

Do you mean Steve Francis "Plus" the rebounding? Because I think Bayless will be a decent rebounder for a PG.

Good rebounders are born, not created. Francis averaged 5.4 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career. He started at 5.3 in his rookie season and never got much better or worse. Bayless has averaged 3.1 rebounds per 36 minutes both seasons. He's about as good as he'll ever be at rebounding.

It's very, very rare that a guy figures out how to rebound. People have been waiting for Aldridge to learn how to be a man and rebound, but it's never going to happen.

Check it out...

rookie season reb/36 minutes/career average

Gerald Wallace 7.5/7.2
Lamarcus Aldridge 8.1/7.7
Brandon Roy 4.5/4.5
Jason Kidd 5.4/6.7
Travis Outlaw 5.5/5.6
Chris Paul 5.1/4.7
Magic Johnson 7.7/7.1
etc, etc, etc

Kidd is the biggest improvement I found of the guys that came to mind and he only increased his rebounding by 1.3 per 36 minutes. Bayless won't suddenly become a good rebounder.