"Boom goes the dynamite" Rebuild

[BlazerCaravan]

Your high man. Johnson can't run the offense right now if Nate played it for him. Do you even bother to think back to last year when Roy went down and Bayless stepped in and got us big wins in places like San Antonio on the road? No fucking way Johnson steps up to that level of play, not this year, not 3 years from now.

Armon did win us a game (against Milwakee) with perfect 4-4 shooting for 10 points and 5 assists. He was the most potent offensive player on the team that night (ORtg of 192).

Also, about Bayless: yes, he scored 31 to beat San Antonio, but surrounding that game are 4 below average efforts: 6pts (2-6 shooting) and 9pts (3-8 shooting) before the SAS game, and 8pts (2-10 shooting) and 2pts (0-7 shooting) after it. It was the very definition of inconsistent... or worse, consistently bad with occasional blasts of awesomeness.

He had 11 games last season where he shot 0-for (taking at least one shot). 11! That's fully 1/7 of his games. You can't perform like that and be a player in this league.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Armon did win us a game (against Milwakee) with perfect 4-4 shooting for 10 points and 5 assists. He was the most potent offensive player on the team that night (ORtg of 192).

Also, about Bayless: yes, he scored 31 to beat San Antonio, but surrounding that game are 4 below average efforts: 6pts (2-6 shooting) and 9pts (3-8 shooting) before the SAS game, and 8pts (2-10 shooting) and 2pts (0-7 shooting) after it. It was the very definition of inconsistent... or worse, consistently bad with occasional blasts of awesomeness.

He had 11 games last season where he shot 0-for (taking at least one shot). 11! That's fully 1/7 of his games. You can't perform like that and be a player in this league.

I think Armon's problem right now is that the NBA scouted him.



Real question here, but did he start the games around SA? Roy was out that game, and Bayless started. Did he also start the two games after?

 

[BlazerCaravan]

I think Armon's problem right now is that the NBA scouted him.

Probably... he needs to grow, and his TO's are killing us... but he's not as bad as this streak is showing us. None of the Blazers are.

 

[hasoos]

Armon did win us a game (against Milwakee) with perfect 4-4 shooting for 10 points and 5 assists. He was the most potent offensive player on the team that night (ORtg of 192).

Also, about Bayless: yes, he scored 31 to beat San Antonio, but surrounding that game are 4 below average efforts: 6pts (2-6 shooting) and 9pts (3-8 shooting) before the SAS game, and 8pts (2-10 shooting) and 2pts (0-7 shooting) after it. It was the very definition of inconsistent... or worse, consistently bad with occasional blasts of awesomeness.

He had 11 games last season where he shot 0-for (taking at least one shot). 11! That's fully 1/7 of his games. You can't perform like that and be a player in this league.

Yea beating Milwaukee is sure like beating San Antonio on the road....

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Yea beating Milwaukee is sure like beating San Antonio on the road....

They count the same, unfortunately.

 

[RoyToy]

Armon did win us a game (against Milwakee) with perfect 4-4 shooting for 10 points and 5 assists. He was the most potent offensive player on the team that night (ORtg of 192).

Also, about Bayless: yes, he scored 31 to beat San Antonio, but surrounding that game are 4 below average efforts: 6pts (2-6 shooting) and 9pts (3-8 shooting) before the SAS game, and 8pts (2-10 shooting) and 2pts (0-7 shooting) after it. It was the very definition of inconsistent... or worse, consistently bad with occasional blasts of awesomeness.

He had 11 games last season where he shot 0-for (taking at least one shot). 11! That's fully 1/7 of his games. You can't perform like that and be a player in this league.

That's being yanked around and trying his best to be what he's not - a true PG.

When given consistent minutes as a starter in 11 games last year he averaged 12.6pts/G and 3.3asts/G on 43% shooting. That's from a 21-year-old 2nd year player. He can definitely be a player in this league if given just a 6th man role and not trying to be a true PG. As his career goes on he'll still be able to work on it and I'm sure he'll get better as a true PG, but we know at the very least he can be a scorer in this league.

Basically the team should have traded Rudy and kept Bayless. One guy didn't want to be here(Rudy) and the only thing the other guy wanted was minutes(Bayless). Instead we have Rudy playing even worse than last year and the Blazers are still developing a backup PG. It's just stupid. Now the bench has 0 scoring whatsoever and no one can tell me Bayless couldn't have provided a scoring punch off the bench if asked to do so. At the very least Bayless makes something happen when he's in the game. Wasn't always good, but there's action. Coming off averaging 14/4 in the playoffs I wish he was still here and Rudy wasn't.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Some of the comments about Bayless reminds me of the annual debate over Outlaw.

No, Bayless is not capable of scoring 31 points every night. If he was, he would be paid too much to be a reserve.

Even if Bayless only gave the team a big scoring threat 1 game out of 4, that would still make him more valuable than the muck and dreck the team currently has. (same with Outlaw)

 

[RoyToy]

They count the same, unfortunately.

Major difference being Armon played a nice complimentary roll in winning that game while Bayless led the Blazers in scoring and assists. It's pretty obvious who actually won the game for their team and who just played a nice roll in a win. Hell, Armon was outscored by 5 other Blazers against Milwaukie.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I know it's been mentioned a couple of times, but how fucking awful must Babbitt really be to rack DNPs on this fucking team.

Looks like KP got his parting shot on draft night.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Some of the comments about Bayless reminds me of the annual debate over Outlaw.

No, Bayless is not capable of scoring 31 points every night. If he was, he would be paid too much to be a reserve.

Even if Bayless only gave the team a big scoring threat 1 game out of 4, that would still make him more valuable than the muck and dreck the team currently has. (same with Outlaw)

How about 1 game out of 8? He scored 15 or more in 9 games (1 in 8), and 20 or more in 4 games (1 in 18). By those odds, he'd have given us one big game so far this season, and another decent one, but still 15 more mediocre ones.

 

[Ed O]

Excuse me, but what are you talking about? Johnson has more potential than Bayless because of his defense, his size and oh yeah, he actually has a position. The only skill Bayless has is getting fouled. Johnson is already better at defense, better at running an offense, and basically on par with Bayless in shooting. The stats would show Johnson is actually better at shooting, but since it's a small sample size, I thought I'd leave that out.

I disagree. Bayless's skill (getting to the line) is more valuable than any that Johnson possesses. Bayless is older, but only by six months.

It's still to be determined, of course, but I bet Bayless will have a substantially better career than Johnson.

Ed O.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

That's being yanked around and trying his best to be what he's not - a true PG.

When given consistent minutes as a starter in 11 games last year he averaged 12.6pts/G and 3.3asts/G on 43% shooting. That's from a 21-year-old 2nd year player. He can definitely be a player in this league if given just a 6th man role and not trying to be a true PG. As his career goes on he'll still be able to work on it and I'm sure he'll get better as a true PG, but we know at the very least he can be a scorer in this league.

Basically the team should have traded Rudy and kept Bayless. One guy didn't want to be here(Rudy) and the only thing the other guy wanted was minutes(Bayless). Instead we have Rudy playing even worse than last year and the Blazers are still developing a backup PG. It's just stupid. Now the bench has 0 scoring whatsoever and no one can tell me Bayless couldn't have provided a scoring punch off the bench if asked to do so. At the very least Bayless makes something happen when he's in the game. Wasn't always good, but there's action. Coming off averaging 14/4 in the playoffs I wish he was still here and Rudy wasn't.

At the time, though, it didn't make sense to have Bayless as a 6-3 SG when you had just signed Matthews to be the 6th man off the bench filling in at SG and SF. I don't think the Bayless trade was great, but it wasn't a massive failure either. One more win thus far this season wouldn't be helpful.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Whose minutes would Babbitt take? Batum's or Rudy's? I think people would complain about valuable players' psyches being messed with. Dante's? Maybe, but Dante is being used to guard people Babbitt just couldn't (I saw Dante hold his ground and not budge while being pushed on by Mareese Speights, who is a BIG guy). Wesley? Hell no, he's our only good player. If Babbitt was two inches taller and ten pounds heavier, I'm sure he would be seeing the floor.

The other problem is that in all of the games the Blazers have essentially been neck-and-neck until the last two minutes where it just slips away. Hence Nate wants to play players he can trust and can't afford to take a gamble (he has to feel VERY secure before he'll do that).

If we were getting COMPLETELY blown out, Babbitt probably would see the floor.

 

[RoyToy]

I know it's been mentioned a couple of times, but how fucking awful must Babbitt really be to rack DNPs on this fucking team.

Looks like KP got his parting shot on draft night.

Comes down to defense. That's the only difference between him and DC. Babbitt can knock down that same shot DC isn't right now, and is supposed to have 3pt range.

I looked at Babbitt in the preseason and noticed he scored 18pts against the Nuggets. I'd like to see Babbitt get a little run just out of curiosity at this point considering Cunningham really sucks right now.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

I disagree. Bayless's skill (getting to the line) is more valuable than any that Johnson possesses. Bayless is older, but only by six months.

It's still to be determined, of course, but I bet Bayless will have a substantially better career than Johnson.

Ed O.

Possibly, but Bayless getting to the line has no real correlation to wins. Look at this game log (sort on FTA), and see the distribution of wins and losses: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bayleje01/gamelog/2010/

Notice how there's a ton of wins near the bottom? Bayless getting to the line was a symptom of a team with no other options, and Bayless himself wasn't getting the team a ton of extra wins with that skill.

 

[Ed O]

At the time, though, it didn't make sense to have Bayless as a 6-3 SG when you had just signed Matthews to be the 6th man off the bench filling in at SG and SF. I don't think the Bayless trade was great, but it wasn't a massive failure either. One more win thus far this season wouldn't be helpful.

Why not play him at the backup PG spot, then? Handing that spot to a rookie like Johnson didn't seem smart at the time and it looks even worse now as we see the bench stink it up night after night.

Ed O.

 

[RoyToy]

At the time, though, it didn't make sense to have Bayless as a 6-3 SG when you had just signed Matthews to be the 6th man off the bench filling in at SG and SF. I don't think the Bayless trade was great, but it wasn't a massive failure either. One more win thus far this season wouldn't be helpful.

At the same time though, did it make sense to keep Rudy knowing he didn't want to be here? How does it make sense Rudy stays and Bayless goes? I get the Wesley thing and positions etcetc, but Rudy has said he doesn't want to be here and he's playing like it.

Main reason I brought it up is this thread has to do with rebuilding the team. As a rebuilding team I'd take Bayless over Rudy and Armon 10/10.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Why not play him at the backup PG spot, then? Handing that spot to a rookie like Johnson didn't seem smart at the time and it looks even worse now as we see the bench stink it up night after night.

Ed O.

Because, unlike Bayless, Armon doesn't mind playing 12 minutes a game. Bayless would not accept less than 24 minutes, and Andre is good enough to be playing 32+... it looked like a good idea to trade the worse defender for the better defender. I still don't mind the trade, and I'm actually a big fan of Bayless as a guy with heart and fire. Portland as it was set up in October had no need for him though.

 

[Minstrel]

'Cause we all know that every rookie player is exactly fully developed 20 games into their first NBA season.

GTFO

I know it's been mentioned a couple of times, but how fucking awful must Babbitt really be to rack DNPs on this fucking team.

Looks like KP got his parting shot on draft night.

There's at least a little irony in these being back to back posts from you in the same thread.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

At the same time though, did it make sense to keep Rudy knowing he didn't want to be here? How does it make sense Rudy stays and Bayless goes? I get the Wesley thing and positions etcetc, but Rudy has said he doesn't want to be here and he's playing like it.

Main reason I brought it up is this thread has to do with rebuilding the team. As a rebuilding team I'd take Bayless over Rudy and Armon 10/10.

That's great, but rebuilding doesn't let you fantasize about undoing a trade. If you want to see if Toronto takes Rudy off your hands for Bayless, go for it... but since Rudy basically said he'd refuse to play for any other team if traded, it might be tough.

I think Rudy was kept because he was seen as high risk/high reward as a potential replacement for a gimpy Roy. If Roy has knees, Rudy is likely traded to NYK and the idiots over there who seem desperate to obtain a player who refuses to play for them.

Portland is rebuilding now (or will be once they realize they are)... but they weren't this time last month. Bayless is gone, and maybe it'd be worth getting him back as part of the rebuild. Kind of like getting Steve Blake back half a dozen times. I certainly wouldn't be against getting him back, especially if Roy is going down like Brooke Ballyntine on the Titanic. I like Bayless, as a person and as a player.

 

[Nikolokolus]

There's at least a little irony in these being back to back posts from you in the same thread.

Yeah I suppose you're right.

But, I do think their situations are slightly different. Point guards have more responsibilities and a tougher position to learn in the NBA and Armon definitely needs to start showing he can counter opponents scouting him pretty soon or people's snap judgments might be correct that he's doomed to suck. On the other hand Babbitt was supposedly drafted for his ability to space the floor and hit shots, something that should theoretically take less time to transfer from college to the NBA and for a team that can't seem to get any offense going on its bench, it's reasonable to infer that he's not showing much NBA ability in practices.

Armon at least showed flashes of competence early on before his slump, we've yet to even see even the inkling that Babbitt can be effective when he's been on the floor.

 

[Minstrel]

Yeah I suppose you're right.

But, I do think their situations are slightly different. Point guards have more responsibilities and a tougher position to learn in the NBA and Armon definitely needs to start showing he can counter opponents scouting him pretty soon or people's snap judgments might be correct that he's doomed to suck. On the other hand Babbitt was supposedly drafted for his ability to space the floor and hit shots, something that should theoretically take less time to transfer from college to the NBA and for a team that can't seem to get any offense going on its bench, it's reasonable to infer that he's not showing much NBA ability in practices.

Armon at least showed flashes of competence early on before his slump, we've yet to even see even the inkling that Babbitt can be effective when he's been on the floor.

I think Babbitt has tougher competition for minutes. He has Batum and Cunningham to contend with. Despite Batum having a tough stretch at the moment, he's one of the franchise's key players. And Cunningham has been a surprisingly solid contributor. It's reasonable that he would be racking up DNPs. Meanwhile, the team has zero options at point guard after Miller, so Johnson has to play, Hobson's choice.

As to Babbitt's play when he does play, I think any rookie would be overwhelmed by NBA speed when he gets almost no time to adjust to it. Practice is practice...it's not the same as intense game speed and competition. I think Babbitt is likely to look shell-shocked for as long as his minutes are sporadic, at least for the first year or two.

If you want rapid acclimatization, you have to throw him into the ocean and let him figure it out. It's reasonable that McMillan isn't doing that, his job is to try to win games and not to look out for Babbitt's development, but I don't think his DNPs or struggles in incredibly infrequent minutes indicate that his talent level sucks.

 

[craigehlo]

My blow up plan:

First off, let's trade Batum + our 1st round pick for Aaron Brooks. He's out with an ankle injury and Kyle Lowry has been stepping up for them in the meantime (beat the Lakers tonight). Then see if you can spin Joel + New Orleans 1st round pick for Iguodala from Philly. After that, you get Brendon Haywood, who's fallen out of favor in Dallas, for Andre's contract and Rudy. The starting lineup is now:

Brooks
Matthews
Iguodada
LaMarcus
Camby

Bench:
Roy
Haywood
Dante
misc crap