Politics Changing definitions of who is right, left and center.

[Further]

I’ve been thinking about how parties have changed in the past and how I think there is a good deal of morphing in today’s political world.

I have long considered myself pretty left or liberal but a major tenant of liberalism to me was protection of free speech and even securing the rights of those you oppose to freely speak, even if it’s racist, homophobic, sexist or some other nasty BS. But now the left is often trying to ban contrary views from speaking in public forums instead of the old standard of fighting for their rights to speak and then protesting their ideas.

Likewise the right used to abhor any impediment to free trade but now stands for trump who is putting the biggest roadblocks to free trade in the form of tariffs.

There are many more examples but these are just two. I dont like so much of what is happening politically in America nowadays, and it amazes me that regardless of what turns these parties take, their members follow blindly.

 

[Natebishop3]

Things are worse than ever before for a couple of reasons.

1. The internet and more specifically social media. I have never seen such a horrible mixture of echo chambers, click bait articles with inaccurate information, and manipulation. It is creating this horrible divide in this country. I put the blame squarely on social media. It is a poison and it was never intended for this.

2. I think most of the people are more towards the middle, and are not the lunatics that are out causing problems, but it's always the vocal minority that seems to represent the parties because they speak up. Most of us are content to just live our lives and vote and pay taxes, meanwhile the assholes that are out causing problems are creating this image of both parties. This is leading to stereotypes that are exacerbating the issues. There are people who literally believe that all Republicans are racist Nazis. I honestly can't believe it. The way some people reacted when Paul Allen donated money to the GOP was as if he was directly donating money to the KKK. It was insane.

Add these two factors to an already growing problem with voting the party line (aka voting the lesser of two evils) and we have our current political climate. I also think that both parties have been using hot button topics like illegal immigration, guns, abortion, gay marriage, etc to gain power, and while those issues are all very important, they pale in comparison to things like the economy, health care, education, etc. But these politicians have us completely distracted as if we're at a magic show, and they are using misdirection to rob us blind.

 

[barfo]

Most of us are content to just live our lives and vote and pay taxes, meanwhile the assholes that are out causing problems are creating this image of both parties. This is leading to stereotypes that are exacerbating the issues. There are people who literally believe that all Republicans are racist Nazis.

Agreed, political exaggeration is bad.

The way some people reacted when Paul Allen donated money to the GOP was as if he was directly donating money to the KKK. It was insane.

Aren't you exaggerating a bit there?

I don't recall anyone reacting that way about Paul's contribution. Some of us were disappointed and/or confused by it.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

Agreed, political exaggeration is bad.



Aren't you exaggerating a bit there?

I don't recall anyone reacting that way about Paul's contribution. Some of us were disappointed and/or confused by it.

barfo

Not so much on here, but it was posted across Reddit and the comments were not nice.

 

[barfo]

Not so much on here, but it was posted across Reddit and the comments were not nice.

Ah, ok. I have not Reddit.

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

I’ve been thinking about how parties have changed in the past and how I think there is a good deal of morphing in today’s political world.

I have long considered myself pretty left or liberal but a major tenant of liberalism to me was protection of free speech and even securing the rights of those you oppose to freely speak, even if it’s racist, homophobic, sexist or some other nasty BS. But now the left is often trying to ban contrary views from speaking in public forums instead of the old standard of fighting for their rights to speak and then protesting their ideas.

Likewise the right used to abhor any impediment to free trade but now stands for trump who is putting the biggest roadblocks to free trade in the form of tariffs.

There are many more examples but these are just two. I dont like so much of what is happening politically in America nowadays, and it amazes me that regardless of what turns these parties take, their members follow blindly.

Liberal republicans.

 

[Hoopguru]

Agreed, political exaggeration is bad.



Aren't you exaggerating a bit there?

I don't recall anyone reacting that way about Paul's contribution. Some of us were disappointed and/or confused by it.

barfo

The media has taken sides which only ignites the frenzy more. And nowadays with social media quick response and action is moral. These two have changed this country big time. Not all bad except news media.

 

[Lanny]

Ah, ok. I have not Reddit.

barfo

You have no Reddit credit.

 

[barfo]

You have no Reddit credit.

I spend most of my time on Fergottit.

barfo

 

[Lanny]

Things are worse than ever before for a couple of reasons.

1. The internet and more specifically social media. I have never seen such a horrible mixture of echo chambers, click bait articles with inaccurate information, and manipulation. It is creating this horrible divide in this country. I put the blame squarely on social media. It is a poison and it was never intended for this.

2. I think most of the people are more towards the middle, and are not the lunatics that are out causing problems, but it's always the vocal minority that seems to represent the parties because they speak up. Most of us are content to just live our lives and vote and pay taxes, meanwhile the assholes that are out causing problems are creating this image of both parties. This is leading to stereotypes that are exacerbating the issues. There are people who literally believe that all Republicans are racist Nazis. I honestly can't believe it. The way some people reacted when Paul Allen donated money to the GOP was as if he was directly donating money to the KKK. It was insane.

Add these two factors to an already growing problem with voting the party line (aka voting the lesser of two evils) and we have our current political climate. I also think that both parties have been using hot button topics like illegal immigration, guns, abortion, gay marriage, etc to gain power, and while those issues are all very important, they pale in comparison to things like the economy, health care, education, etc. But these politicians have us completely distracted as if we're at a magic show, and they are using misdirection to rob us blind.

They pale because you are not gay or a minority or a woman who might need an abortion or an undocumented immigrant or a gun nut.

 

[Natebishop3]

They pale because you are not gay or a minority or a woman who might need an abortion or an undocumented immigrant or a gun nut.

I disagree.

Is Gay Marriage going to matter if we're in another Great Depression?

Is legalized abortion going to matter if you have no healthcare? If something goes wrong and you end up with a massive hospital bill, I think that's going to be a more pressing issue.

If you're an undocumented immigrant, you're not going to be able to find much work if nobody can find work.

And I believe that our issues with guns is directly linked to our shitty education system.

 

[barfo]

And I believe that our issues with guns is directly linked to our shitty education system.

Elaboration needed here... not seeing the link myself.

barfo

 

[e_blazer]

Elaboration needed here... not seeing the link myself.

barfo

See Jane run.
See Jane go to the gun store.
See Jane exercise her 2nd amendment rights to conceal carry.

 

[barfo]

See Jane run.
See Jane go to the gun store.
See Jane exercise her 2nd amendment rights to conceal carry.

Or is it:

See Jane run.
See Jane run to an ISIS training camp.
See Jane return to kill dozens of civilians.

?

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Is legalized abortion going to matter if you have no healthcare? If something goes wrong and you end up with a massive hospital bill, I think that's going to be a more pressing issue.

In the last century, we had in Oregon protection from losing you home to creditors, like could happen with one event sending you to the hospital.
It was provided by filing for homestead protection on your property. This prevented leans being put on you home as it was your homestead.

How ever Oregon voters in their lack of wisdom fell for the some trickery for property tax relief as it was sold by the Oregon legislature in 1999.
The Homestead act was modified to exempt only 40 or 50K, single or joint from debit. Wonderful hey! It doesn't take much too time in the hospital today to
run up a bill in the big numbers, hundred of Thousands. Heck, I ran up a bill of 12k in 8hrs in the emergency room last July. Think about what they could count give days.

One of the first things Hospitals do is file the lean on your property just in case they need it. If you don't get the bill payed, a judgement against you by a court is all it take for the Sheriff to be putting your home up for sale. After the sale the sheriff will give you a check for your 40 or 50k.

Not all that long ago, your home could not be sold for such debts. The reason these bill get so big is to make up for those that never get paid, which is some where near 60% of all admissions. Then we also have those bills that get paid at less than cost by agreement, like Medicare. Think about it!
The guy that has nothing goes to hospital and walks out with no tethers. The home owner can get a bill too damn big for a Basketball team to pay, so they
take his home, to pay the bill for all those that walk with no tethers.

The voters have been slow walked over the years into this trap.

 

[julius]

Apologies to the Gap Band, but..

Jack and Jill went up the hill, to have a little fun.
Stupid Jack, forgot to pack, and now they're both dead because a good guy without a gun couldn't stop a bad guy with a gun from shooting them both.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

Chris Hedges: The evidence for our impending doom

Trump is not to blame for our societal destruction, the author of 'America: The Farewell Tour' tells Street Roots; the problem is our political and economic systems

https://news.streetroots.org/2018/10/05/chris-hedges-evidence-our-impending-doom

 

[MARIS61]

Elaboration needed here... not seeing the link myself.

barfo

Proves his point about the shitty education system.

 

[barfo]

Proves his point about the shitty education system.

I suppose, but it's not really necessary for you to criticize his communication skills.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

Elaboration needed here... not seeing the link myself.

barfo

It's a combination.

1. Back in the 90's teachers were complicit in encouraging kids to go on drugs like Ritalin. It was shortly after that we started having these school shootings.

2. Classrooms are overcrowded and teachers aren't able to pay as close attention to kids that are going through issues.

3. Kids are pushed on to the next grade even if they're not ready. It's just another example of passing the buck until eventually a kid explodes.

This all really just contributes to being incapable to identify kids who are in jeopardy.

Then, if we want to expand it out, I blame schools for promoting the fear culture surrounding guns. Instead of educating and addressing a lack of knowledge and respect for guns, they installed zero tolerance and fear about guns. This has led to an entire generation of adults who don't know shit about guns, only that they are afraid of them and they're bad.

 

[barfo]

It's a combination.

1. Back in the 90's teachers were complicit in encouraging kids to go on drugs like Ritalin. It was shortly after that we started having these school shootings.

Teachers? I'm unfamiliar with this story, as that was well past my time, but surely MDs and parents should shoulder more of the blame?

2. Classrooms are overcrowded and teachers aren't able to pay as close attention to kids that are going through issues.

3. Kids are pushed on to the next grade even if they're not ready. It's just another example of passing the buck until eventually a kid explodes.

I suppose, although it seems to me that sort of thing happened in the old days also, without the shootings.

This all really just contributes to being incapable to identify kids who are in jeopardy.

Then, if we want to expand it out, I blame schools for promoting the fear culture surrounding guns. Instead of educating and addressing a lack of knowledge and respect for guns, they installed zero tolerance and fear about guns. This has led to an entire generation of adults who don't know shit about guns, only that they are afraid of them and they're bad.

Do schools spend a lot of time on gun fear? I suppose they probably do now that there are school shootings every 15 minutes, but did they before the shootings started? I guess I'm not sure you've got cause and effect sorted out correctly here, although I guess it could be a vicious cycle type thing.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

Teachers? I'm unfamiliar with this story, as that was well past my time, but surely MDs and parents should shoulder more of the blame?

Absolutely, parents and doctors shoulder blame as well, but I grew up in it. Teachers would recommend to the parents of rambunctious kids that they should look into ADD/ADHD drugs. I didn't say that schools are entirely responsible, but I do feel that there is a link. A connection.

I suppose, although it seems to me that sort of thing happened in the old days also, without the shootings.

Did you have a lot of classrooms where it was 30+ kids to 1 teacher back in ye olden days?

Do schools spend a lot of time on gun fear? I suppose they probably do now that there are school shootings every 15 minutes, but did they before the shootings started? I guess I'm not sure you've got cause and effect sorted out correctly here, although I guess it could be a vicious cycle type thing.

barfo

Absolutely they do now. I don't think it's one of the original issues, but I think that it has contributed and made the issue worse.

 

[Lanny]

See Jane run.
See Jane go to the gun store.
See Jane exercise her 2nd amendment rights to conceal carry.

"A link (short for hyperlink) is an HTML object that allows you to jump to a new location when you click or tap it. Links are found on almost every webpage and provide a simple means of navigating between pages on the web. Links can be attached to text, images, or other HTML elements."

e.g. https://www.bing.com/search?pc=COSP...&conlogo=CT3332016&q=definition+of+a+web+link

 

[e_blazer]

"A link (short for hyperlink) is an HTML object that allows you to jump to a new location when you click or tap it. Links are found on almost every webpage and provide a simple means of navigating between pages on the web. Links can be attached to text, images, or other HTML elements."

e.g. https://www.bing.com/search?pc=COSP&ptag=D103017-N0610A21ABFDD9D88F4162B1F&conlogo=CT3332016&q=definition of a web link

And I believe that our issues with guns is directly linked to our shitty education system.

Link: A relationship between two things or situations, especially where one thing affects the other.

Joke: That thing that went sailing over your head, Lanny.

 

[Lanny]

Link: A relationship between two things or situations, especially where one thing affects the other.

Joke: That thing that went sailing over your head, Lenny.

Apparently it went sailing over a lot of heads. I wonder what that means.

 

[e_blazer]

Apparently it went sailing over a lot of heads. I wonder what that means.

Only Barfo responded and he did so with his own, better joke, so .

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Teachers? I'm unfamiliar with this story, as that was well past my time, but surely MDs and parents should shoulder more of the blame?

Nate tells the story correctly. Essentially, teachers and school administrators have the authority to identify a child as a "problem" and place them on an "individualized education plan", which can include (for the sake of the rest of the class) that the child must be medicated or removed from the public school system. When parents who cannot afford private education are given that ultimatum, the essentially have no choice but to submit to the school mandate.

 

[CupWizier]

Absolutely, parents and doctors shoulder blame as well, but I grew up in it. Teachers would recommend to the parents of rambunctious kids that they should look into ADD/ADHD drugs. I didn't say that schools are entirely responsible, but I do feel that there is a link. A connection.

Raising 3 kids who are now 42.34 and 31 as well as often taking my grandkids ages 20 and 13 not once has any teacher ever suggested getting drugs for ANY kind of disorder. What school are you speaking of?

Did you have a lot of classrooms where it was 30+ kids to 1 teacher back in ye olden days?

I did and in fact my high school had around 2500 students and when my sisters went to Grant they had around 3000 students. Over the last several years 20 years that same school has had around 1500 students.

 

[Propagandist]

Nate tells the story correctly. Essentially, teachers and school administrators have the authority to identify a child as a "problem" and place them on an "individualized education plan", which can include (for the sake of the rest of the class) that the child must be medicated or removed from the public school system. When parents who cannot afford private education are given that ultimatum, the essentially have no choice but to submit to the school mandate.

I too can verify the obsession with teachers and what was then called ADD when I was a kid. Having children now, I find talking to them and teaching them some mental discipline works well...that sounds militant. Let me rephrase to mental techniques. And watching what they eat. And making sure they exercise and get bored every once in a while and take time to read and be calm and reflect on their days...etc.

That being said, there are kids that seem unable to focus without help. But still, when I was a kid it seemed EVERYONE was diagnosed with ADD.

 

[barfo]

Nate tells the story correctly. Essentially, teachers and school administrators have the authority to identify a child as a "problem" and place them on an "individualized education plan", which can include (for the sake of the rest of the class) that the child must be medicated or removed from the public school system. When parents who cannot afford private education are given that ultimatum, the essentially have no choice but to submit to the school mandate.

Yikes. Glad I wasn't ever part of that (other than by being part of the problem by being unaware and doing nothing).

barfo