Cliff Lee
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His one rehab start was a disaster now this. They rushed him so they could feature him in a trade. I wouldn't go near him.
Rick2583
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Mattingly23NY
Turning Fastballs Into Souveneir's ~
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Me 3, agreed he was hurried in time to dangle for trade and or cash....off a big contract...!
Sad, Lee WAS the epitome of a big game crafty pitcher, finesse or power past opponents. A great staffer for any Playoff Team. I get a feeling, those days are ovah...!!!
It'd be a mistake IMO, to go after another injury prone older player, whose best days are now far behind him, (again) IMHO. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see it...!
Besides, even IF Lee had returned to prior form of years ago, our Team would need a helluva lot more great pitching, in addition to just Lee....!
1 man doth not a team make...!
Yankeefan5545
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All the marks on Lees body are where he's been touched by ten foot poles. Enjoy Philly Cliff.
yankeesince59
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^^^this
...I expected him to be rusty, but the drop in velo is a concern.
...I expected him to be rusty, but the drop in velo is a concern.
totus44
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Didn't look like he went to the cut fastball much either. A lot of 2-0 counts....oy. Rust is one thing, but the usual Cliff Lee presence wasn't there.
http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=1636&position=P&pitch=FA
The fangraphs aren't that encouraging either.
http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=1636&position=P&pitch=FA
The fangraphs aren't that encouraging either.
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Mattingly23NY
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Only Shields, King Felix, and Verlander have thrown more innings since 09, than Lee. Sabathia is 5th behind Lee in IP, (since 09).
Verlander's looking tired, worn out, with the worst year of his career. Tho' he should beat Nuno today, as the Bengals take a batting practice game into the books, and/or stands....tee off time.
,
We all know Sabathia's plight, and NOW it's Lee's turn to not turn it up, he can't, he's done, stick a fork in him as well as Matt Kemp, and Hanley Ramirez.....If Blank CheckBook-Man, goes after any of the 3, I'd say he's a fool.....
All 3 have forks in their necks.....! Without the l luxury of Vitamin S,....... the days of old timers playing at high levels in latter years is ovah......!!!!! With the exception of a few super freaks of nature, ala Nolan Ryan. He didn't need the juice, he got plenty of testosterone from his "red beef' herd of cattle......"Got Beef - Got Milk"....!!! Then no need for Juice....!
And BOY'O did he ever once have a very large herd of cattle on his ranch in Alvin Texas, just 30 minutes west of Houston on I-10...
Verlander's looking tired, worn out, with the worst year of his career. Tho' he should beat Nuno today, as the Bengals take a batting practice game into the books, and/or stands....tee off time.
,
We all know Sabathia's plight, and NOW it's Lee's turn to not turn it up, he can't, he's done, stick a fork in him as well as Matt Kemp, and Hanley Ramirez.....If Blank CheckBook-Man, goes after any of the 3, I'd say he's a fool.....
All 3 have forks in their necks.....! Without the l luxury of Vitamin S,....... the days of old timers playing at high levels in latter years is ovah......!!!!! With the exception of a few super freaks of nature, ala Nolan Ryan. He didn't need the juice, he got plenty of testosterone from his "red beef' herd of cattle......"Got Beef - Got Milk"....!!! Then no need for Juice....!
And BOY'O did he ever once have a very large herd of cattle on his ranch in Alvin Texas, just 30 minutes west of Houston on I-10...
Yankeefan5545
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For a testimonial on Ryans physical condition just ask Robin Ventura. The Rangers are looking awfully stupid since Ryan left and that punk took over the team.
Mattingly23NY
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I found this article, on Tote's link for Lee's velocity. The article does have some interesting data,....... BUT I am not buying it, ie the Philly Propoganda machine...!
http://sportstwo.com/threads/267473-Cliff-Lee
Lee is great for a good number of reasons. He barely walks anybody, he strikes out a good deal of batters, he doesn’t serve up a lot of home runs. He’s a FIP darling. He also pitches a lot of innings, and has for some time. Since 2009, only three pitchers have pitched more innings than Lee; James Shields, Felix Hernandez, and Justin Verlander. CC Sabathia comes in fifth, and then there is a fairly significant drop off from there. Of that sample, Lee trails only Verlander in Wins Above Replacement. He’s been one of the best and most durable pitchers of this era, and it may all be coming to an end.
Lee has been placed on the disabled list with a strained throwing elbow. It’s his first time on the DL with an arm injury. A strain is a tear. Cliff Lee has a tear in his elbow. This is not the end of him yet, and I don’t mean this as a eulogy. But it is a reminder that even the workhorses break down.
Roy Halladay was long the poster boy for durability until his arm back gave out, his fastball dropped to batting-practice speeds, and he retired. Sabathia may miss the rest of the season with a knee injury. Verlander, while never needing a DL stint, saw significant drops in his numbers last season. Nothing gold can stay.
This is perhaps expected with Lee. He is 35 years old. His career was winding down no matter what. But his breakdown, at least compared to his high-inning peers, comes as a little unexpected. He may be a workhorse, but he’s a very efficient workhorse.
We still don’t know for sure what all the ingredients are that make up a pitcher injury. If you can figure it out, you’ll make a lot of money, in fact. We have inclinations that high velocity and high breaking-ball usage seem to be factors to a certain extent. In this regard, Cliff Lee has avoided the pitfalls. His fastball never breached 92 MPH. His curveball usage has stayed below 10% for the most part, and his slider usage is very minimal.
On an April 9th broadcast for the Houston Astros, the announcers mentioned comments by Houston pitching coach Brett Strom regarding his plans to keep his young pitching staff healthy. Strom brought up the idea of looking less at pitching totals for the game, and more on pitching totals per inning. The idea of high-stress innings — innings in which a pitcher throws 30 or more pitches — was something he was monitoring. This makes sense. Pitching is always going to be stressful on the arm, but doing it more within a short period of time — without the natural rest that comes between innings — can exacerbate the situation.
With help from Jeff Zimmerman, I looked at all the pitchers since 2009 who had these high-stress innings. Here are the top 10:
Pitcher
High-Stress Innings
Justin Verlander 50
Jon Lester 38
Max Scherzer 38
Bud Norris 37
C.J. Wilson 37
Gio Gonzalez 36
Mike Pelfrey 36
Ubaldo Jimenez 36
Joe Saunders 34
Yovani Gallardo 34
Cliff Lee’s name isn’t on here, because in order to get him to show up I would have had to include 84 more rows. Lee has only thrown 18 high-stress innings since 2009 — about 1.5% of his total innings in that span. This is both impressive somewhat expected.
To keep pitch counts low during an inning, a pitcher has to be efficient in every at-bat. Cliff Lee is really good at being efficient in an at bat.
Name
P/IP
Cliff Lee 14.71
Bronson Arroyo 15.00
Felix Hernandez 15.15
CC Sabathia 15.44
Mark Buehrle 15.45
James Shields 15.54
Cole Hamels 15.56
Matt Cain 15.60
Ervin Santana 15.63
Clayton Kershaw 15.64
–
Name
P/BF
Bronson Arroyo 3.61
Cliff Lee 3.65
Mark Buehrle 3.70
CC Sabathia 3.70
Ervin Santana 3.71
Felix Hernandez 3.73
James Shields 3.74
Jeremy Guthrie 3.76
A.J. Burnett 3.78
Edwin Jackson 3.79
These two charts cover the same 5+ year span as the previous one. It’s easy to see how Lee was able to limit his high-stress innings. He lead all starters in Zone% and was second in first pitches thrown for strikes during this stretch as well. Lee stays in the zone and doesn’t manage to walk many batters in the process.
All in all, Cliff Lee has still thrown a lot of pitches. He has pitched for the better part of 10 seasons, as well as 11 postseason games. Early reports say his flexor tendon is the problem, not his UCL, so there’s a good chance Tommy John surgery won’t be needed right now. Assuming the prognosis doesn’t get worse, he’ll most likely pitch through the end of next season when his contract is set to expire. What happens after that is up to him, but if he keeps up his efficient ways, he may have some good late-30s years left in him. This would be good for the Phillies, their fans, and anybody else who likes watching a true master go to work.
http://sportstwo.com/threads/267473-Cliff-Lee
Lee is great for a good number of reasons. He barely walks anybody, he strikes out a good deal of batters, he doesn’t serve up a lot of home runs. He’s a FIP darling. He also pitches a lot of innings, and has for some time. Since 2009, only three pitchers have pitched more innings than Lee; James Shields, Felix Hernandez, and Justin Verlander. CC Sabathia comes in fifth, and then there is a fairly significant drop off from there. Of that sample, Lee trails only Verlander in Wins Above Replacement. He’s been one of the best and most durable pitchers of this era, and it may all be coming to an end.
Lee has been placed on the disabled list with a strained throwing elbow. It’s his first time on the DL with an arm injury. A strain is a tear. Cliff Lee has a tear in his elbow. This is not the end of him yet, and I don’t mean this as a eulogy. But it is a reminder that even the workhorses break down.
Roy Halladay was long the poster boy for durability until his arm back gave out, his fastball dropped to batting-practice speeds, and he retired. Sabathia may miss the rest of the season with a knee injury. Verlander, while never needing a DL stint, saw significant drops in his numbers last season. Nothing gold can stay.
This is perhaps expected with Lee. He is 35 years old. His career was winding down no matter what. But his breakdown, at least compared to his high-inning peers, comes as a little unexpected. He may be a workhorse, but he’s a very efficient workhorse.
We still don’t know for sure what all the ingredients are that make up a pitcher injury. If you can figure it out, you’ll make a lot of money, in fact. We have inclinations that high velocity and high breaking-ball usage seem to be factors to a certain extent. In this regard, Cliff Lee has avoided the pitfalls. His fastball never breached 92 MPH. His curveball usage has stayed below 10% for the most part, and his slider usage is very minimal.
On an April 9th broadcast for the Houston Astros, the announcers mentioned comments by Houston pitching coach Brett Strom regarding his plans to keep his young pitching staff healthy. Strom brought up the idea of looking less at pitching totals for the game, and more on pitching totals per inning. The idea of high-stress innings — innings in which a pitcher throws 30 or more pitches — was something he was monitoring. This makes sense. Pitching is always going to be stressful on the arm, but doing it more within a short period of time — without the natural rest that comes between innings — can exacerbate the situation.
With help from Jeff Zimmerman, I looked at all the pitchers since 2009 who had these high-stress innings. Here are the top 10:
Pitcher
High-Stress Innings
Justin Verlander 50
Jon Lester 38
Max Scherzer 38
Bud Norris 37
C.J. Wilson 37
Gio Gonzalez 36
Mike Pelfrey 36
Ubaldo Jimenez 36
Joe Saunders 34
Yovani Gallardo 34
Cliff Lee’s name isn’t on here, because in order to get him to show up I would have had to include 84 more rows. Lee has only thrown 18 high-stress innings since 2009 — about 1.5% of his total innings in that span. This is both impressive somewhat expected.
To keep pitch counts low during an inning, a pitcher has to be efficient in every at-bat. Cliff Lee is really good at being efficient in an at bat.
Name
P/IP
Cliff Lee 14.71
Bronson Arroyo 15.00
Felix Hernandez 15.15
CC Sabathia 15.44
Mark Buehrle 15.45
James Shields 15.54
Cole Hamels 15.56
Matt Cain 15.60
Ervin Santana 15.63
Clayton Kershaw 15.64
–
Name
P/BF
Bronson Arroyo 3.61
Cliff Lee 3.65
Mark Buehrle 3.70
CC Sabathia 3.70
Ervin Santana 3.71
Felix Hernandez 3.73
James Shields 3.74
Jeremy Guthrie 3.76
A.J. Burnett 3.78
Edwin Jackson 3.79
These two charts cover the same 5+ year span as the previous one. It’s easy to see how Lee was able to limit his high-stress innings. He lead all starters in Zone% and was second in first pitches thrown for strikes during this stretch as well. Lee stays in the zone and doesn’t manage to walk many batters in the process.
All in all, Cliff Lee has still thrown a lot of pitches. He has pitched for the better part of 10 seasons, as well as 11 postseason games. Early reports say his flexor tendon is the problem, not his UCL, so there’s a good chance Tommy John surgery won’t be needed right now. Assuming the prognosis doesn’t get worse, he’ll most likely pitch through the end of next season when his contract is set to expire. What happens after that is up to him, but if he keeps up his efficient ways, he may have some good late-30s years left in him. This would be good for the Phillies, their fans, and anybody else who likes watching a true master go to work.
Mattingly23NY
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I still laugh my ass off whenever I see the film of Nolan's beat down of Ventura....the old man taught the cocky young buck a thing or too, "It's MY PLATE, and I'll throw wherever I want".....
Yep the Rangers regardless of DL issues, are dead without Ryan at the helm. GM Daniels gets to take ALL the credit now for his pitiful team, and his own ignorance...he got his wish. Be careful what ya' wish for".....took on a whole new meaning. As Kinsler said, "I hope they go 0-162..."!!!
Funny thing is a head lock (not a choke hold-2 different things), to a wrestler spells certain doom, as head locks have to many counter devastating moves, to get out of one, and put your opponent on his back on a mat....but those 2 weren't Olympiad Wrestlers, only ball players....
blgridesagain
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Cliff Phifer Lee ....
When he signed with the Phillies, he said "they offer me the best chance to win championshipS".
I guess he never did win those championshipS. (yes, plural)
But he does laugh all the way to the bank....unfortunately.
When he signed with the Phillies, he said "they offer me the best chance to win championshipS".
I guess he never did win those championshipS. (yes, plural)
But he does laugh all the way to the bank....unfortunately.
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yankeesince59
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Rick2583
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As soon as Ventura reached Ryan he put his head down like he wanted to hug him, which allowed Ryan to put that head lock on leading to the beat down of Robin head. What I found funny about that video is not knowing most of the names on the back of the players jersey's.
yankeesince59
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...when I saw the video on youtube there was another next to it...some half-wit decided to put his own personal spin on the fight...according to him Ventura turned things around and took Ryan down, when in reality Ryan had more than just the weight of Ventura piled on him when he went down...just goes to shows that if someone tries hard enough they can justify just about anything...this is pretty funny actually.
...this guy actually convinced himself that Ventura got the better of Ryan...and proceeded to fabricate this video.
[video=youtube;E4j4ujBQY8s] 4j4ujBQY8s&has_verified=1[/video]
...this guy actually convinced himself that Ventura got the better of Ryan...and proceeded to fabricate this video.
[video=youtube;E4j4ujBQY8s] 4j4ujBQY8s&has_verified=1[/video]
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yankeesince59
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...I suppose... he's also a White Sox homer that obviously has way too much time on his hands.
Mattingly23NY
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The nerve of some people.....
The EPITOME of a Pale Hose HOMER.....some peeps just don't believe the truth when it unfolds right before their eyes, or simply see only what they want to fabricate......I think even Robin would of said the Old Man got the best of him, no doubt, if he told the truth.....