Collins Summer League Analysis

[e_blazer]

Don't know who the guy is that made this video, but he has some interesting takes on Collins' summer league performance.

 

[tlongII]

Fair analysis.

 

[mook]

Pretty accurate. We've got enough offense at other positions that I think he's going to get significant minutes just for his defense, particularly help defense and pick-and-roll defense.

Last season he was second all-time in blocked shots at Gonzaga. Not bad for a rookie who played 17mpg.

Watching the video you can tell he doesn't leave his feet to get them. It should translate well to the NBA. If it were 10 years ago and everybody was scoring in the post, I'd say he needs a solid year of strength training. But now it's all about containing guards and wings, and especially point guards on the pick and roll. Speed, length and anticipation matter a lot more than strength.

Much like Meyers, he may be something of a one-trick pony right now, but it's a trick we desperately need.

 

[SheedSoNasty]

Much like Meyers, he may be something of a one-trick pony right now, but it's a trick we desperately need.

Just out of curiosity, what is Meyers' trick?

 

[e_blazer]

Just out of curiosity, what is Meyers' trick?

Turning an entire basketball forum into MM.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Just out of curiosity, what is Meyers' trick?

Convincing Neil/Paul to pay him.

I wish he'd teach me that trick!

BNM

 

[Driew]

Turning an entire basketball forum into MM.

HAHAHAHA yes!!!

 

[Pinwheel1]

This was his conclusion: (I am paraphrasing) "A project, well worth investing in and I wouldn't be surprised if he is a starter in this league in 2-3 years."

This is pretty much what I think as well. He needs minutes this year to get better, but there will be HUGE growing pains. We knew he was not physically ready. I would not count on him this year in the 2-deep. He will play when a big gets hurt. Right now Nurk, Davis, Vonleh, Aminu, Swanigan are all ahead of him at the 4-5

 

[mook]

Just out of curiosity, what is Meyers' trick?

Well, one season it was playing good defense against Marc Gasol for a couple of games. Another season it was shooting wide-open threes. Neither of those stuck though.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Good micro-analysis.
HORRIBLE macro-analysis - I think some of you are getting soft for not dinging the "coach"!

1) No mention of the fact that he was nervous. It was the only time he'll probably play in front of his hometown. It was also his first NBA experience.
2) He didn't play "3 games" - he was injured near the beginning of his 3rd game.
3) Sample size, sample size, sample size.
4) Collins is an amazing 3 point shooter from NBA 3 point distance. His pontifications about his some day being able to his the 3 are just dumb.
5) No discussion of how different skills translate to the NBA.

That being said, there was some good info about the details of Collin's game.

 

[dviss1]

QUOTE="mook, post: 4237562, member: 20905"]Well, one season it was playing good defense against Marc Gasol for a couple of games. Another season it was shooting wide-open threes. Neither of those stuck though.[/QUOTE]

There's also the couple of games he was a "Boogie Irritant".

He's a young dog with no tricks...

 

[e_blazer]

I have a more p


There's also the couple of games he was a "Boogie Irritant".

He's a young dog with no tricks...

The smartass in me says maybe we could teach him to roll over and play dead.

 

[Denny Crane]

Good micro-analysis.
HORRIBLE macro-analysis - I think some of you are getting soft for not dinging the "coach"!

1) No mention of the fact that he was nervous. It was the only time he'll probably play in front of his hometown. It was also his first NBA experience.
2) He didn't play "3 games" - he was injured near the beginning of his 3rd game.
3) Sample size, sample size, sample size.
4) Collins is an amazing 3 point shooter from NBA 3 point distance. His pontifications about his some day being able to his the 3 are just dumb.
5) No discussion of how different skills translate to the NBA.

That being said, there was some good info about the details of Collin's game.

You should make a video

 

[Destroyer of Worlds]

Wish we had Kim Hughes still.

 

[Denny Crane]

He obviously has to develop an NBA game. The roles are considerably different than for big men in college. It's really up to the coaching staff to direct his development into the kind of player they want him to be.

He didn't look overmatched, just like he was asked to start doing things for which he hasn't developed a level of comfort.

I'm happy if he can get us 12-18 minutes of solid bench play this season.

 

[riverman]

summer league...when these rookies have been to combines, tryouts and media events all summer....they all need a training camp to develop an NBA game. ..I won't judge Collins on his Vegas showing but he is only 19 and a project. It does take longer for the game to slow down for bigs.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

summer league...when these rookies have been to combines, tryouts and media events all summer....they all need a training camp to develop an NBA game. ..I won't judge Collins on his Vegas showing but he is only 19 and a project. It does take longer for the game to slow down for bigs.

Pardon me for going full @Mediocre Man, but I'm so tired of this. Yes, there is the occasional Jermaine O'Neal or Hassan Whiteside, but for the most part, any center worth keeping shows it pretty early.

2 years. That's all he needs (IMO). If he's not a quality rotation big by the end of next season, he's not worth waiting on. Personally, I think he'll prove himself to be NBA caliber much sooner than that, but I'm not interested in waiting for him to "develop his potential" if he hasn't shown much by that point, and I'm sure Dame and CJ aren't interested in waiting around for him either.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Wish we had Kim Hughes still.

Or any other actual NBA big man coach. I've been harping on this for a while, but with so many young bigs (Collins, Swanigan, Nurkic, Vonleh and Leonard) it makes no sense at all to me why we don't have one (or more) dedicated big man coach(es).

Paul Allen is literally investing hundreds of millions of dollars in these guys. So, why not drop a few hundred thousand, or maybe even a million or two, on the best big men coaches money can buy. If I was him, with those five players, all in need of further development, I'd hire two - a dedicated offensive specialist and one for defense and rebounding.

I mean come on, at the very least hire a guy like Kevin McHale as an off season consultant to work with these guys during the summer months.

Or just swallow your pride and bring back Kim Hughes. I know Hughes crossed the line by leaking Aldridge's departure to the press, but it's not like it changed anything. Aldridge was already gone. It just hadn't been officially announced. So, he got fired and has paid his penance. No sense biting off your nose to spite your face. The guy was actually turning Meyers Leonard into a decent NBA player. Ever since Hughes was fired, Meyers has been 100% lost.

We also have Noah Vonleh, who is solid on defense and the boards, but after 3 years in the NBA, nearly half of it as a starter, he does not have one single, reliable offensive move.

We just used three first round picks in an historically deep draft to get two more 20 and under big men...

HIRE A FUCKING BIG MAN COACH ALREADY!!!!!!!!

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Pardon me for going full @Mediocre Man, but I'm so tired of this. Yes, there is the occasional Jermaine O'Neal or Hassan Whiteside, but for the most part, any center worth keeping shows it pretty early.

2 years. That's all he needs (IMO). If he's not a quality rotation big by the end of next season, he's not worth waiting on. Personally, I think he'll prove himself to be NBA caliber much sooner than that, but I'm not interested in waiting for him to "develop his potential" if he hasn't shown much by that point, and I'm sure Dame and CJ aren't interested in waiting around for him either.

I'm sure he'd develop much faster, IF THE BLAZERS HAD AN ACTUAL BIG MAN COACH!!!!!!!

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

So one thing I've been wondering is who the Blazers' big man coach is.

 

[Boob-No-More]

So one thing I've been wondering is who the Blazers' big man coach is.

Not sire if that was to be in green font, but if not:

Jim Moran, 6'6" small forward with zero NBA experience (though he did play professionally in Europe for 10 years where he averaged 2.3 reb/game).

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Banging with Nurk in practice will likely have far more effect on his game than a big man coach.

 

[JDC]

Not sire if that was to be in green font, but if not:

Jim Moran, 6'6" small forward with zero NBA experience (though he did play professionally in Europe for 10 years where he averaged 2.3 reb/game).

BNM

Dale Osbourne and Nate Tibbets works with the bigs too.

But regardless, I'm of the opinion that Noah and Meyers just aren't that good.

And no amount of coaching is going to turn those guys into starting level or even quality rotation players. Its up to them to apply the skills taught to them.

 

[dviss1]

Pardon me for going full @Mediocre Man, but I'm so tired of this. Yes, there is the occasional Jermaine O'Neal or Hassan Whiteside, but for the most part, any center worth keeping shows it pretty early.

2 years. That's all he needs (IMO). If he's not a quality rotation big by the end of next season, he's not worth waiting on. Personally, I think he'll prove himself to be NBA caliber much sooner than that, but I'm not interested in waiting for him to "develop his potential" if he hasn't shown much by that point, and I'm sure Dame and CJ aren't interested in waiting around for him either.

 

[riverman]

Pardon me for going full @Mediocre Man, but I'm so tired of this. Yes, there is the occasional Jermaine O'Neal or Hassan Whiteside, but for the most part, any center worth keeping shows it pretty early.

2 years. That's all he needs (IMO). If he's not a quality rotation big by the end of next season, he's not worth waiting on. Personally, I think he'll prove himself to be NBA caliber much sooner than that, but I'm not interested in waiting for him to "develop his potential" if he hasn't shown much by that point, and I'm sure Dame and CJ aren't interested in waiting around for him either.

I like the kid....hope he beasts by allstar game but realistically, he's just simply not strong enough at the upper body or lower core to bang with NBA centers and at 19....that's not surprising...he'll benefit from training camp and practicing against Nurk, etc...as it is...Collins couldn't budge a Noah Vonleh out of post position and Noah isn't a center.....I think he's a great project though and will get up to speed quicker than some because he's a smart player and seems to be a quick study....Swanigan to me is closer to NBA ready.

 

[dviss1]

Dale Osbourne and Nate Tibbets works with the bigs too.

But regardless, I'm of the opinion that Noah and Meyers just aren't that good.

And no amount of coaching is going to turn those guys into starting level or even quality rotation players. Its up to them to apply the skills taught to them.

@Boob-No-More Got some after Nurk Noah stats?

 

[JDC]

@Boob-No-More Got some after Nurk Noah stats?

Nurk really did help simplify things for Noah and they seemed to have good chemistry together.

Not sure what that has to do about Noah's individual talent or the coaching staffs ability to develop players though.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Dale Osbourne and Nate Tibbets works with the bigs too.

But regardless, I'm of the opinion that Noah and Meyers just aren't that good.

And no amount of coaching is going to turn those guys into starting level or even quality rotation players. Its up to them to apply the skills taught to them.

So, another 6'6" guy and a 6'2" guy, neither with any experience playing in the NBA. How's that working out? How has Meyers Leonard's "progress" been since Kim Hughes was fired? How's Noah Vonleh's offensive game developing?

Seriously, I'm sure all of Moran, Tibbetts and Osbourne are good coaches, but not one of them is a big man coach. Not one of them has ever had to defend or box out NBA big men. This is one area where I believe experience counts, and these guys between them have NONE. And it shows, just look at the results.

I'm not saying fire any of these guys, just add a REAL big man coach to work with our FIVE 25 and younger big men. Why not? What can we possibly lose? As I've said, I'd love to see two full time big men coaches, one specializing in offense and one on defense working with our young guys year round. Collins and Swanigan likely aren't going to get a lot of PT this season, so practice time is going to be key to their development. I'd rather have then working with an experienced big man coach who has played the position than a 6'2" guy who may eventually make a good head coach, but has zero experience playing the position.

Not doing so seems downright foolish to me. Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars in salaries for these guys, but cut corners when it comes to their development? Paul Allen has the money, there is no limit on how many assistant coaches you can have, or what you can pay them. They don't count against the salary cap or luxury cap. So, why not pay whatever it takes to get the best in the business?

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

@Boob-No-More Got some after Nurk Noah stats?

Not exactly, but you can look at his pre and post all star game splits at basketball-reference.com. Of course, they were better post-Nurkic, everyone's were.

But, that still doesn't preclude the need for a big man coach. It's not like Noah developed into an all star playing next to Nurk. He was better, but imagine how much better he could have been if he'd been working with a big man coach for two solid years before Nurk joined the team.

And then there is Meyers... He was actually showing progress under Kim Hughes and has absolutely fallen off a cliff since Hughes was fired.

Now we also have Nurk, Collins and Swanigan. As talented as Nurk is, he could still use some work on his game. He's still turnover prone and shoots a fairly low percentage inside of 10 feet. The basic moves and talent are there, but but completing the move and making the shot without turning the ball over still need some work. It's not like he's a finished product at 22. Collins obviously needs to develop and Swanigan still has holes in his game, especially on defense.

All FIVE of these guys could benefit from a good, experienced big man coach.

BNM

 

[SIeepwalker]

Just out of curiosity, what is Meyers' trick?

Looking lost