Dems May Go It Alone on Healthcare

[BLAZER PROPHET]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32472594/ns/politics-the_new_york_times

Well, not surprising. And neither is the following quote from the article:

"The Democratic shift may not make producing a final bill much easier. The party must still reconcile the views of moderate and conservative Democrats worried about the cost and scope of the legislation with those of more liberal lawmakers determined to win a government-run insurance option to compete with private insurers."

I wonder if this will go the way of Bush's SS reform.

 

[maxiep]

Yeah, I was reading another article about it in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/health/policy/19repubs.html?_r=1

BTW, I think it's a despicable strategy for one side to say the other side is being obstructionist and is unwilling to work with you when they simply have a fundamental disagreement. The Democrats are saying it this time, but the Republicans did it with the Patriot Act.

Whatever happened to agreeing to disagree based on an honest philosophical difference?

 

[maxiep]

If the Democrats force this bill through based on their own party alone, they're going to get creamed in 2010. And I honestly don't think they care.

 

[deception]

thats because republicans arent partners in healthcare reform and obama tried for months to incorporate the republicans but they were insistent on trying to make this issue the president's "waterloo" but little do they know its going to be his normandy. plus, the stimulus spending is going to increase just in time for the 2010 races

 

[maxiep]

thats because republicans arent partners in healthcare reform and obama tried for months to incorporate the republicans but they were insistent on trying to make this issue the president's "waterloo" but little do they know its going to be his normandy. plus, the stimulus spending is going to increase just in time for the 2010 races

Do you think the Democrats or the White House would agree to any of the following conditions?

--allow individuals to deduct health care insurance expenses from their taxes like corporations?

--allow individuals to have health savings accounts?

--deregulate insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines?

--allow employers to sell catastrophic insurance only?

Compromise isn't compromise if the Democrats are unwilling to budge. Besides, it's not just the Republicans who don't like it; President Obama and the Democratic Leadership is having enough problems keeping their own members in line.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

thats because republicans arent partners in healthcare reform and obama tried for months to incorporate the republicans but they were insistent on trying to make this issue the president's "waterloo" but little do they know its going to be his normandy. plus, the stimulus spending is going to increase just in time for the 2010 races

The administration & lefties gave the righties a 'take it or leave it' on this "reform". There was no willingness to working together. Now the lefties are imploding.

 

[bodyman5001]

People seriously think that the other side should give it up like a prom date because they have no choice?

Who was it that said a woman should lie back and enjoy it if rape is inevitable? Must have been a Democrat.

If I worked with a group of let's say five people and three of them wanted to do something unbelievably stupid should I just go along? Would I be a whiny bitch if I tried to stop them?

Even if they were right and I was wrong, should I go against my belief that I am right?

I don't think so.

 

[mook]

The program they develop will eventually be wildly popular with Americans over the long haul. That's certainly been the case with pretty much every industrialized country that has gone down this path. And it's also the case with Medicare and Social Security. Why would it be different this time?

Will they lose seats in the next midterm because of health care reform? Maybe. Well, probably. But history shows that the Democrats probably weren't going to make major gains in the midterms anyway. And a little divided government is good for this country.

I'd rather see the Dems pass major reform that includes a public option and then lose the House and/or Senate, than see them retain power and not pass reform.

Democrats need only a short time in power to pass legislation that will survive for decades, even lifetimes. It's like a weed--once the seeds are planted Republicans can fight against them year after year, but they'll never beat them back. The best they can hope for is reform (aka welfare reform in the early 1990's).

If they can get this passed, it'll probably cost them in the short run. But in the long run is a different matter.

 

[blazerboy30]

The program they develop will eventually be wildly popular with Americans over the long haul. That's certainly been the case with pretty much every industrialized country that has gone down this path. And it's also the case with Medicare and Social Security. Why would it be different this time?

It shouldn't be a surprise that a huge population gets something for free that is paid for by 1-5% of the population is popular. That doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

Medicare may be popular, but it isn't sustainable. I posted an article last week stating that hospitals are only reimbursed for about 90% of their costs related to Medicare.

 

[maxiep]

Democrats need only a short time in power to pass legislation that will survive for decades, even lifetimes. It's like a weed--once the seeds are planted Republicans can fight against them year after year, but they'll never beat them back. The best they can hope for is reform (aka welfare reform in the early 1990's).

If they can get this passed, it'll probably cost them in the short run. But in the long run is a different matter.

Absolutely 100% correct. That's my fear when the Left is in power. Government programs are a racheting effect. Once they're put in, they only go one way. When a true small-government opposition (which doesn't currently exist) is in power, their effect is temporary.

This legislation is going to be an anchor around the neck of growth and prosperity for this country.

As for getting this bill passed, the Democrats are taking the long view. Daniel Hannon has it exactly right when he says that it permanently changes the debate. When your health and life are involved and the government controls it, everything revolves around that point. Tomorrow's Republicans will be where the Democrats are today and today's Democrats will be so far to the left that they'll look at Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi as right wingers.

This is a battle not on one issue, but a war for what many of us believe America stands for. I don't believe someone else should have control over my body and the healthcare I receive. That's for me to decide, not my representative or my neighbor.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

People seriously think that the other side should give it up like a prom date because they have no choice?

What does this mean?

 

[mook]

*nod* We disagree on whether it's good or bad, but we definitely agree on it's ability to last.

I think conservatives will look back on the Bush years as a colossal waste in the area of health care. Had Republicans made real health care reform a top priority when they were in power, we wouldn't be in the current situation. You hear them argue now that we could bring about all the reform we need with tort reform, private savings accounts, deregulation, etc, but it rings hollow. The truth is that they had their chance and they didn't deliver the goods.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Absolutely 100% correct. That's my fear when the Left is in power. Government programs are a racheting effect. Once they're put in, they only go one way. When a true small-government opposition (which doesn't currently exist) is in power, their effect is temporary.

This legislation is going to be an anchor around the neck of growth and prosperity for this country.

As for getting this bill passed, the Democrats are taking the long view. Daniel Hannon has it exactly right when he says that it permanently changes the debate. When your health and life are involved and the government controls it, everything revolves around that point. Tomorrow's Republicans will be where the Democrats are today and today's Democrats will be so far to the left that they'll look at Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi as right wingers.

This is a battle not on one issue, but a war for what many of us believe America stands for. I don't believe someone else should have control over my body and the healthcare I receive. That's for me to decide, not my representative or my neighbor.

While I'm not so sure I agree with 100% of what you are saying, I do agree with most of it. Especially about the amount of control the government is taking over us as persons as well as financially.

Maybe, to get it all over with, 100% of our pay should go to the dems and they will allot it back as they see fit after taking their cut.

 

[yakbladder]

The administration & lefties gave the righties a 'take it or leave it' on this "reform". There was no willingness to working together. Now the lefties are imploding.

And the righties made their series of undeniable demands as well. Don't act like this is a one-ring circus we're observing.

When Obama's administration sent out the balloons to test the air about a non-governmental option the Republicans should have jumped wholeheartedly on it and started praising it as a first step. Instead all I saw was essentially "Well, there are still many other issues that make this a bad idea"...

 

[hasoos]

After the last 8 years, they should really not give a shit, and jam every bill they want down the republicans throat. They did it to us. Now it's our turn. Fuck em.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

And the righties made their series of undeniable demands as well. Don't act like this is a one-ring circus we're observing.

Well, you're partially right (in a leftie sort of way). And I don't mean to make this necessarily a onr-ring circus, but that's what it's turned out to be. It's not supported by all the dems. It's not supported by the citizenry (in general) and yet the dems and administration are going to just, as hasoos so aptly puts it, jam it down everyone's throats whether they want it or not.

That's not my idea of a representative government. It's more of a despotism form of government.

 

[mook]

That's not my idea of a representative government. It's more of a despotism form of government.

It's only despotic if you are in the minority.

As centrists seem to matter less and less, we're going to continue to see more wild swings in government.

We just ended a long stretch of conservative government. Now, for 8 or so years, we'll have a really left government (by our standards, although certainly not by Europe's). Then we'll probably go back to a really right government. Etc.

Each side will jam through as much as they can, never compromising, because they know time is limited and there's no benefit in compromising to attract fewer and fewer centrists.

That's assuming, of course, conservatives can figure out a way to attract minorities back to their party. I think it's going to a take a whole new group of Republican leaders to do that--not just in the party but on talk radio and television.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

It's only despotic if you are in the minority.

As centrists seem to matter less and less, we're going to continue to see more wild swings in government.

We just ended a long stretch of conservative government. Now, for 8 or so years, we'll have a really left government (by our standards, although certainly not by Europe's). Then we'll probably go back to a really right government. Etc.

Each side will jam through as much as they can, never compromising, because they know time is limited and there's no benefit in compromising to attract fewer and fewer centrists.

That's assuming, of course, conservatives can figure out a way to attract minorities back to their party. I think it's going to a take a whole new group of Republican leaders to do that--not just in the party but on talk radio and television.

Good post. All your points are well taken.

 

[bluefrog]

Do you think the Democrats or the White House would agree to any of the following conditions?

--allow individuals to deduct health care insurance expenses from their taxes like corporations?

--allow individuals to have health savings accounts?

--deregulate insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines?

--allow employers to sell catastrophic insurance only?

Compromise isn't compromise if the Democrats are unwilling to budge. Besides, it's not just the Republicans who don't like it; President Obama and the Democratic Leadership is having enough problems keeping their own members in line.

I think some of these are good ideas. Why don't republicans use this chance to push their alternative to the proposed plans at these town hall meetings.

I saw one yesterday down in Texas and the Senator said was this was a bad bill. OK, what's your alternative? Deregulation? Co-ops? Health Saving Accounts? Americans want reform and all the opposition can come up with is "Just say NO"?????? It's the equivalent of the Democrats' "Anyone but Bush" Its counter-productive and doesn't solve anything.

I have to admit that this isn't the best bill possible but it's the only one being presented by politicians.

 

[BrianFromWA]

so the status quo is automatically worse than a bad bill?

 

[yakbladder]

so the status quo is automatically worse than a bad bill?

In this case, definitely yes.

So the status quo is automatically better than an average bill?

 

[maxiep]

*nod* We disagree on whether it's good or bad, but we definitely agree on it's ability to last.

I think conservatives will look back on the Bush years as a colossal waste in the area of health care. Had Republicans made real health care reform a top priority when they were in power, we wouldn't be in the current situation. You hear them argue now that we could bring about all the reform we need with tort reform, private savings accounts, deregulation, etc, but it rings hollow. The truth is that they had their chance and they didn't deliver the goods.

Mook, did it ever occur to you that perhaps the "conservatives" in office during the Bush Administration weren't small government types? Recognize that those people don't have the same "priorities" as someone on the left. Health care wasn't high on the list, and the War on Terror crowded a lot of stuff out.

 

[maxiep]

After the last 8 years, they should really not give a shit, and jam every bill they want down the republicans throat. They did it to us. Now it's our turn. Fuck em.

Welcome to Obama's post partisan era...

 

[maxiep]

In this case, definitely yes.

So the status quo is automatically better than an average bill?

Hmm. Not according to the American people: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...reform_better_than_passing_congressional_plan

 

[adisodes]

Rasmussen just came out with a poll today showing that 57% of Americans support a health care reform with a public option. They did a separate poll showing 34% of Americans would support health care reform without it.

I don't have time to go get the link but I'm sure you guys can find it. It was released today, as opposed to the Rasmussen poll maxiep linked that was done like five days ago.

 

[bodyman5001]

What does this mean?

Capitulate is the word I am thinking of. People talk like the Republicans are horrible for not compromising on something they don't want in any way shape or form. They are horrible but I think it is because they spent unGodly amounts of money over the last decade.

I hate studies that are funded by our tax money but I would like one example of how they are actually trying to fix anything except by spending more of my earnings on it.

I just spent 2 hours in the DMV because the fucking government sent my new driver's license in the mail. I didn't get it.

After 2 hours and watching the numbers go from 280 to 296 in two hours and then realizing that my number was 356 I got up and left.

I got into the Emergency Room at the hospital twice as fast the other night...so once again....



How are these fucking ASSHOLES IN CONGRESS AND OBAMA going to fix healthcare?

What I saw was 900 homeless people or meth addicts trying to get drugs. FIX THAT YOU FUCKERS.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Well, since we want to start making drugs legal so we can tax them, I'd say the problem's going to solve itself, right?

 

[yakbladder]

Capitulate is the word I am thinking of. People talk like the Republicans are horrible for not compromising on something they don't want in any way shape or form. They are horrible but I think it is because they spent unGodly amounts of money over the last decade.

It's the fact that they don't want to compromise on anything. They want to make this a great failure so they can show what a fantastic party they are. There have been several compromises by Democrats or attempts at compromises in the past week. But the Republicans do not budge an inch.

If that's what you consider playing on conviction and not being partisan, then what the @#$% is your problem with Dems doing the same thing?

Anyone who has seen politics knows the Republicans are playing politics to a high degree here. The Dems did it before when they were out of power, the Republicans are doing it now. The difference is the Dems actually did work with Bush and the Republicans on a few items where the Republicans so far just plant their heels in the ground and refuse to budge. Exactly how does this benefit anyone?

One of two things is going to happen in the next two years. The Republicans are going to figure out that, crap, they need to actually work together to fix America and get some of their ideas implemented even if it does mean a compromise. Otherwise the Dems will just go "screw em" and write whatever the hell they want for two years. Do you want some or none? Because for 8 years you've had ALL and now asking the Dems to bend over again ain't going to happen Charlie.

As for the rest of your post I might suggest a nice glass of wine and some time in a dark room. Lots of anger there.

 

[bodyman5001]

I haven't gotten jack shit during the last eight years.

I don't have kids so I would rather the Democrats get exactly what they want. If there is any chance for keeping those morons out of power it is proving to the American people what they really stand for. BIG FUCKING GOVERNMENT.

That is fine for all the welfare moms and people who don't want to work. I however, will keep plugging away and go back to work before my doctors want me to because I have the desire to work.

I should drink myself silly because I had to wait at the DMV while 400 illegals sat around smelling of BO and screaming their jibber jabber language. Yeah, my bad. Go Dems.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I'm glad Obama is taking this health care issue head on . . . because it is a serious issue here in the US.

We will see if his plan . . . or a compromised version of his plan works . . . but thatnk god for addressing the issue.