Do we think Dundon will relocate the team?

[Rastapopoulos]

I don't know how alarmed we should be by the following, so I thought I'd poll you

 

[RR7]

No option for " Bill Oram has the middle seat of the plane between Canzano and Jaynes and is quickly becoming an annoying hack one trick pony"?

 

[Hoopguru]

And SLC just got an NHL team and will probably get MLB.
Why? Because they are business corporate friendly and they want to be aggressive.

 

[julius]

I think people are forgetting that the vote for the funding by the city doesn't have to be unanimous.

That said, go figure the city council is being stupid and willing to cut off it's nose to spite it's face.

Bottom line, the team leaves and the Moda become a husk of a building. Who is going to pay for any of the upkeep/repairs for that place if the main Tennant is a WNBA team owned by a group that doesn't have tons of money? That seems incredibly unlikely.

And plus, that building is owned by the city, god forbid the city actually pay for its upkeep.

I mean, ffs.

 

[wizenheimer]

I think people would be much better informed by reading this article instead of trying to digest Oram's alarmist muckraking:

‘Nowhere near a done deal’: Portland leaders buck pressure as clock ticks on Moda Center

The state says it needs to green light bonds by December, but Portland and Multnomah County have barely started negotiating the complex agreements required.

www.oregonlive.com

that article looks more like what journalism used to look like. It actually tries to outline the issues and reservations a growing number of people in local government have. And it explains why the rushed process out of the state legislature is having brakes applied within the city limits

for instance, some people are finally saying "wait a minute...what specifically is that 600M funding package buying? And just as important, will it end up costing a lot more?". The reason the 2nd question is important is because any process that starts with a big bucket of money to pour over a problem usually requires a 2nd bucket of undetermined size. That almost seems axiomatic when it comes to government funding schemes. I mean, "600M for what exactly" seems like a question that should have been answered before now

I suspected this was not going to be the kind of smooth sailing thru the process many assumed. I think it's a valid position for local politicians to take to NOT want to pay for luxury suites; or at least not want to pay 100% of the cost. Yet apparently, that may be what Dundon is demanding




yeah, that's not going to be a quick process. And if there have been no negotiations with the Blazers yet, I can't see why NDA's would be required as local governments figure out how to spend public money on a publicly owned building

I'm still inclined to believe that the genesis of all this was when the City foolishly agreed to assume ownership of The Moda in 2024. That was a 29 year old building at the time and it was obviously in need of a major renovation of unknown cost. The Blazers have no skin in the moda game now

 

[wizenheimer]

And plus, that building is owned by the city, god forbid the city actually pay for its upkeep.

I mean, ffs.

I haven't seen anybody objecting to annual maintenance costs. That's not what this is about. Maybe it is in some ways since apparently the City has to fund upkeep as a condition of the state bond issue. That to the tune of 280M over the term of the 20 year bond sale....20M/year

I'd imagine some people are quietly asking WTF was the city thinking when they agreed to assume ownership of a 29 year old building in pressing need of a major expensive renovation.

I've been wondering if the smooth sailing for this scheme out of the state legislature was going to hit some choppy water and rough seas within the city and county. And it has, apparently. The city counselors that have to sign-off on a 400M commitment by the city are the same ones that are dealing with a 170M budget shortfall. And some of them are up for re-election in the fall

 

[Pinwheel1]

I am not so sure that having Oram being alarmist in this situation is a bad thing. Usually, I do find it annoying, but in this case, I don't think it can hurt.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Do I think Dundon bought the team with intentions to move it? No.

Do I think the City of Portland will negotiate a deal that is fair to the fans, the citizens, the city, and the team? No.

IMO, At least two of these entities are going to come out on the short end of this.

The team will never be one of them.

Have our new owners been in a room with the mayor and city council and clearly stated what they must have, want, really want? Yes

Do we have a clear understanding of what the Blazers want done to the Moda and what the terms of the 20 year lease would look like? No.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

There is a massive game of Chicken going on, and no matter how bad things are at this time (locally and nationally) and no matter how badly the City of Portland wants to focus on the priorities of it's underserved (actually assuming they truly want that), there is no way the City is going to let the Blazers go. If it gets down to the last minute, they'll cave. All they have to do is look to the north to reinforce that billionaires don't get to be billionaires by giving a shit about others. The City of Portland holds no real cards, and while this new City Council may (or may not) not give a shit about a professional sports team, they are politicians and want to keep their jobs. The fans vote. Portland is currently a microcosm of America. Billionaires crack the whip and the rest of us jump. Sucks to be a sports fan.....not to mention an American......

 

[Mediocre Man]

100%

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

the team ain’t moving

 

[Everything Beagle]

100%

Then pokemon go to the polls and VOTE

 

[Mediocre Man]

Then pokemon go to the polls and VOTE

What are you even talking about?

 

[Everything Beagle]

What are you even talking about?

Put your money where your mouth is and select an option in the poll above.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Put your money where your mouth is and select an option in the poll above.

Done

 

[Stevenson]

Do I think Dundon bought the team with intentions to move it? No.

Do I think the City of Portland will negotiate a deal that is fair to the fans, the citizens, the city, and the team? No.

IMO, At least two of these entities are going to come out on the short end of this.

The team will never be one of them.

Have our new owners been in a room with the mayor and city council and clearly stated what they must have, want, really want? Yes

Do we have a clear understanding of what the Blazers want done to the Moda and what the terms of the 20 year lease would look like? No.

Do we like rhetorical questions? Yes. Do we use them to make our point? Again yes? Does that mean they are always effective? No. Do I know what I am trying to say at this point? Again, no.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Do we like rhetorical questions? Yes. Do we use them to make our point? Again yes? Does that mean they are always effective? No. Do I know what I am trying to say at this point? Again, no.

Technically, if they're rhetorical questions, they're not intended to be answered. Like "could Dundon be any more hateable?" (feel free to say it like Chandler Bing would).

 

[inconceivable]

Oram is milking the cow with this narrative. It gets the clicks

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

 

[barfo]

Oram is greasing the pig, shearing the sheep, and cutting the heads off the chickens.

 

[blazerkor]

I read the article and it still seams like they have very few of the people who will ultimately vote on this on record against the funding.

I guess we'll see but until I see a majority of any of the governmental bodies saying they're against it or more likely we get a report that the talks between the team and governments has stalled or stopped... I'm gonna stay very optimistic that the renovation of the arena will start next summer and the team will be locked into a deal keeping them here for the next 20 years.

 

[wizenheimer]

I read the article and it still seams like they have very few of the people who will ultimately vote on this on record against the funding.

I guess we'll see but until I see a majority of any of the governmental bodies saying they're against it or more likely we get a report that the talks between the team and governments has stalled or stopped... I'm gonna stay very optimistic that the renovation of the arena will start next summer and the team will be locked into a deal keeping them here for the next 20 years.

yeah, as I said before, I think you're being way too optimistic

that's not to say it won't eventually pass, but it's not clear sailing anymore. The easy lifting is done, but the nuts and bolts are are a jumble right now. Again, that the city is trying to come up with a 400M commitment for the Moda at the same time it's dealing with a 170M budget shortfall is an obstacle course thru a slow-moving bureaucracy.

personally, I think some of the council-people are finally asking the pertinent question: "600-650M for what exactly?". As far as I can tell, there is no engineering; no feasibility studies; no cost analysis; no planning and design. All that's doe so far is an intent to fill a bucket with 600-650M and pour it on the Moda. That's kind of crazy

one of the people who will vote on this are already saying NO to any public funding of luxury suites. That seems pretty reasonable to me unless th Blazers actually add some of their skin to the game....but reportedly they have no intention of doing so

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think people would be much better informed by reading this article instead of trying to digest Oram's alarmist muckraking:

‘Nowhere near a done deal’: Portland leaders buck pressure as clock ticks on Moda Center

The state says it needs to green light bonds by December, but Portland and Multnomah County have barely started negotiating the complex agreements required.

www.oregonlive.com

that article looks more like what journalism used to look like. It actually tries to outline the issues and reservations a growing number of people in local government have. And it explains why the rushed process out of the state legislature is having brakes applied within the city limits

for instance, some people are finally saying "wait a minute...what specifically is that 600M funding package buying? And just as important, will it end up costing a lot more?". The reason the 2nd question is important is because any process that starts with a big bucket of money to pour over a problem usually requires a 2nd bucket of undetermined size. That almost seems axiomatic when it comes to government funding schemes. I mean, "600M for what exactly" seems like a question that should have been answered before now

I suspected this was not going to be the kind of smooth sailing thru the process many assumed. I think it's a valid position for local politicians to take to NOT want to pay for luxury suites; or at least not want to pay 100% of the cost. Yet apparently, that may be what Dundon is demanding

View attachment 84670
View attachment 84671

yeah, that's not going to be a quick process. And if there have been no negotiations with the Blazers yet, I can't see why NDA's would be required as local governments figure out how to spend public money on a publicly owned building

I'm still inclined to believe that the genesis of all this was when the City foolishly agreed to assume ownership of The Moda in 2024. That was a 29 year old building at the time and it was obviously in need of a major renovation of unknown cost. The Blazers have no skin in the moda game now

Agreed. I didn't like it when that happened.

*Edit* However, I think this gets done. Dundon will get a great deal. Portland can't afford to lose the Blazers. Neither can Oregon.

 

[blazerkor]

yeah, as I said before, I think you're being way too optimistic

that's not to say it won't eventually pass, but it's not clear sailing anymore. The easy lifting is done, but the nuts and bolts are are a jumble right now. Again, that the city is trying to come up with a 400M commitment for the Moda at the same time it's dealing with a 170M budget shortfall is an obstacle course thru a slow-moving bureaucracy.

personally, I think some of the council-people are finally asking the pertinent question: "600-650M for what exactly?". As far as I can tell, there is no engineering; no feasibility studies; no cost analysis; no planning and design. All that's doe so far is an intent to fill a bucket with 600-650M and pour it on the Moda. That's kind of crazy

one of the people who will vote on this are already saying NO to any public funding of luxury suites. That seems pretty reasonable to me unless th Blazers actually add some of their skin to the game....but reportedly they have no intention of doing so

I would seriously like to know where you are looking that tells you the city needs to come up with 400M for this project when the state has already passed 365M, the county is reportedly going to fund 88M and the entire project is supposed to be 600M. Honestly if I've got something wrong I want to know.

Also if you have an article or collection of articles that say they have enough city council members to kill this project, I'd like to know that as well. By my count it's 4 of the 12 that have said they will not vote in favor of funding the project. If I'm missing the 3 others that it would take with the Mayor a solid yes to fund, I would like to know that as well.

Sincerely, if you have this info I want to have it as well because if there is something to worry about, I'd like to be prepared.

 

[Natebishop3]

How much do we have to pay to get favorable calls from the refs and a lucky lottery bounce?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Agreed. I didn't like it when that happened.

*Edit* However, I think this gets done. Dundon will get a great deal. Portland can't afford to lose the Blazers. Neither can Oregon.

This is 100% correct. The problem is that there are going to be people voting who don’t see this.

You see idiot citizens crying about “more important things” to spend money on. But what those fucktards don’t understand is that the Blazers bring in almost 700 million ANNUALLY. Also about 4000 jobs. They have the ears of some voters

The fact that there is ANY chatter about this is troubling. The chatter is real, according to people that know such things. Now, do I think DumDum bought the team with the intention to move it? No. BUT direct quotes from conversations people have had with him say he also won’t hesitate to relocate it for a sweet deal. He is all about the money….PERIOD.

 

[wizenheimer]

I would seriously like to know where you are looking that tells you the city needs to come up with 400M for this project when the state has already passed 365M, the county is reportedly going to fund 88M and the entire project is supposed to be 600M. Honestly if I've got something wrong I want to know.

Also if you have an article or collection of articles that say they have enough city council members to kill this project, I'd like to know that as well. By my count it's 4 of the 12 that have said they will not vote in favor of funding the project. If I'm missing the 3 others that it would take with the Mayor a solid yes to fund, I would like to know that as well.

Sincerely, if you have this info I want to have it as well because if there is something to worry about, I'd like to be prepared.

"Meanwhile, a majority of the five-member Multnomah County Board of Commissioners and the 12-member Portland City Council will each have to approve a funding package that locks in their government’s financial commitment, currently pegged at about $100 million and $400 million, respectively.

On top of the state’s $365 million contribution, Wilson has pledged $120 million up front with $14 million in annual operating costs over a 20-year lease. Vega Pederson, meanwhile, has proposed the county put $88 million toward the renovation and another $13 million toward maintenance."

‘Nowhere near a done deal’: Portland leaders buck pressure as clock ticks on Moda Center

The state says it needs to green light bonds by December, but Portland and Multnomah County have barely started negotiating the complex agreements required.

www.oregonlive.com

https://archive.ph/jsmST#selection-929.0-929.291

these are financial commitments. The City & county have to guarantee two separate pools of money: one is for the renovation. And the other is apparently part of the state bonding requirement that the local governments guarantee an annual Moda maintenance fund for the duration of the bond issue. So, it's around 120-150M for the renovation and the balance for the upkeep of a 32-52 year old building

as for the rest of the not-clear sailing I was talking about:

“We’re not going to be held hostage, we’re not going to sign a bad deal,” Portland Council President Jamie Dunphy told The Oregonian/OregonLive, echoing a position expressed by many of his colleagues. “We’re not going to be a blank check for an-out-of town billionaire. We are going to support our team and our local economy in the way that needs to get done. But we’re not doing it at all costs.”

*************************************

"Another Portland councilor recently called the idea that the Blazers would relocate to another city “a massive bluff,” a sentiment that some on the county commission privately share. Local leaders also have a list of desires they hope to extract from the dealmaking, at least one of which doesn’t even involve the Moda Center but rather the Veterans Memorial Coliseum next door.

That posturing leaves some city and county lawmakers in a starkly different position than state and local leaders and Blazers executives, who are unified in pushing for a rapid resolution."

"It raises not only doubts about whether the gap can be bridged, but whether local leaders can achieve all of the intricate milestones they would seemingly have to hit to begin arena renovations in 2027. Failure to do so, some worry, could throw the Blazers’ future in Portland into question."

**************************************

"With Oregon’s portion of the financial plan in place, a tangled web of contracts between the state, city of Portland and Multnomah County is required before any formal negotiations with the Blazers can start.

State and city officials must establish a new entity known as the Oregon Arena Fund that will allow the two governments to co-own and oversee operations at the Moda Center. Portland and Multnomah County must also enter into their own separate agreement on the arena deal, which is expected to include a list of project terms the county will require in exchange for its financial support.

Work has begun but neither agreement has been finalized and Portland officials would not say how long that might take."

****************************************

“This is nowhere near a done deal,” said Multnomah County Commissioner Julia Brim-Edwards. “The city and county’s work is only just beginning.”

*****************************************

"To line up public financing in time for a summer 2027 groundbreaking, officials with Oregon’s Department of Administrative Services have said the state would need to green light a bond sale by the end of this year.

However, the state arena funding law explicitly prohibits Oregon’s treasurer from issuing debt to finance the project until a new lease agreement is reached with the team and Portland and Multnomah County lock in their financial contributions."

kind of like a carch-22 situation. "I'll only show you mine if you show me yours first!"

****************************************

"History suggests that will be a tight timeframe. It took the city nearly two years to strike a deal with Portland Timbers owner Merritt Paulson to revamp what was then PGE Park for the Major League Soccer team in 2011, an effort that was far less costly and complex."

*****************************************

"Denis Theriault, a county spokesperson, said commissioners will spend “the next several months” working through Moda Center plans, a process that will also allow residents the chance to have a say in the final outcome.

Dunphy, the city council president, said he and a number of his colleagues are also committed to having the public help shape the city’s position on what a final deal could look like. Dunphy also made no firm commitment on when critical votes might come to council, though he recently indicated that he’d like to have a lease agreement approved by early next year.

“The City Council is going to take as much time as it needs because getting this right matters,” he said."

so then....they are going to allow for public input and testimony? I'd point out that this is the city council president. And, while some are talking about an end of the year deadline, he's forecasting at least till early next year. And we all know that early next year could very likely end up late next year

*********************************************

"Another sticking point that’s emerged has been the projected $600 million price tag for the Moda Center remodel. That figure is based on what the Blazers say are studies commissioned over the past several years, though the team has yet to publicly disclose those findings.

Additionally, Blazers officials and the team’s new controlling owner, Dundon, have made it clear that they expect public dollars to cover the entire cost of the arena’s renovations, something that Kotek, Wilson and Vega Pederson have essentially agreed to."

"Numerous skeptics, however, have cried foul on the prospective deal as it currently stands, questioning the estimated cost of the project and the fact that the team has committed no money toward the arena rehab.

Edan Krolewicz, a Trail Blazers fan and New York resident who launched the website Rip City Not Rip Off, has urged political leaders to seek an independent cost evaluation of the Moda renovation and private investment in the work. Portland For All, a progressive advocacy group that wields influence in City Hall, has had more than 5,000 people send letters to elected officials making similar demands.

Dunphy said he and some of his elected colleagues at the city want greater clarity on the renovation’s underlying costs and will ultimately expect the Blazers to “chip in” for some of the arena upgrades.

“I don’t think the city is going to pay for their executive suites or their locker rooms,” Dunphy said."

I challenge you to read that and still land on the overly optimistic ground you're standing on

at a time when Dundon needs to be at least a little conciliatory, he's started in an immovable, "I ain't paying a penny" stance.

I don't believe this shit will fly and frankly, it shouldn't. Why haven't the Blazers released these supposed studies they have commissioned. Over several years? WTF does that mean? Is the 600M number based upon a plan from 2012? Is it really 900M now? Will there be a "woops! sorry, our bad...we need 200M more ASAP"

basically, the proposal to this point is to create a giant bucket of money and pour it on the Moda. There is no engineering, no feasibility studies, no plan. Just a huge slush fund of taxpayer money

*******************************************

"But before Portland makes any level of financial commitment toward the project, its leaders will first have to agree on where the money will come from.

Wilson has pushed to access a significant chunk of the city’s upfront pledge from the voter-approved Portland Clean Energy Community Benefits Fund, which finances projects aimed to reduce carbon emissions, create jobs and promote workforce training in the clean energy sector. The move has drawn opposition by some city councilors and community advocacy groups.

However, other councilors — including Dunphy, Elana Pirtle-Guiney and Sameer Kanal — have indicated that they could support using money from the clean energy fund for Moda, on the condition that the program’s citizen-led advisory committee recommends doing so.

No clean energy funding proposal is expected to go to that advisory committee, however, until the city and the Blazers finalize a design plan and project scope for the renovations. That can’t happen until the city and the team bring on an architect and general contractor."

this seems to be the "easy" out for the city: using that clean energy fund. But I read in another article that the legality of diverting voter-approved funding from the intended use may not even be legal. I'd be pretty certain that as soon as the council approves this track, there will be lawsuits filed. And again, the city will be trying to come up with this funding at the same time they are dealing with a massive budget shortfall that is bound to get more massive due to the big beautiful bill passed by the GOP and Trump's disastrous idiot war

*************************************************

"The Blazers are poised to land an architecture firm this week, according to the team. It could be another two months before a general contractor is chosen and early December by the time design plans are finalized, according to a copy of the project timeline reviewed by The Oregonian/OregonLive."

so...the Blazers are refusing to pay a single penny into the renovation....but they get to choose the architect; choose the general contractor; and have full control of the design and engineering? Such a great deal for the people actually paying the bill

********************************************

"Perhaps even more contentious than the money question will be what terms in a lease agreement Portland — which is also negotiating on behalf of the state and county — and the team will actually agree to.

Oregon leaders, through Senate Bill 1501, have made state funding for the Moda Center contingent on a 20-year arena lease agreement with the Blazers that gives the yet-to-be-established joint authority final say over the scope and budget of the project and protects the city and state from covering cost overruns. Multnomah County leaders have also detailed a list of proposed project requirements in exchange for their dollars, according to records reviewed by The Oregonian/OregonLive. Those include using union labor during both the construction phase of the renovation and later for operations and maintenance work at Moda Center and the Veterans Memorial Coliseum.

County leaders are also seeking a community benefits agreement with local organizations, including the 1803 Fund and Albina Vision Trust, and that the city not expand any urban renewal districts into the Rose Quarter or offer new property tax exemptions in the area.

Portland leaders, meanwhile, have yet to produce a formal list of lease terms or desired public benefits, though those could also include everything from the city having naming rights to street pricing for arena concessions."

LOL...yeah right....I can just see Dundon agreeing to all that and saying "no problem...where do I sign that 20 year lease?"

this is like a confederacy of dunces paddle-boarding in bloody water while a shark circles

****************************************************

"It is setting up what appears to be an extremely tense game of chicken, with many in Portland business circles sounding the alarm that the Blazers leaving town is a genuine risk. Other leaders are less convinced.

“We are in a very, very, very strong negotiating position with them,” Councilor Angelita Morillo said during a town hall last month sponsored by the Portland chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America, of which Morillo and three other city councilors are members. “They are not going to be moving the Blazers out of the city,” Morillo continued. “I think that is a massive bluff, and I think that we need to call them on that bluff.”

The week before Dundon assumed ownership of the Trail Blazers, the NBA announced plans to explore expansion to Seattle and Las Vegas. Though those plans have not been finalized, the belief that those desirable cities are off the table might seem to take away some of Dundon’s leverage to move the team."

you're right...this all looks like smooth sailing to a quick resolution

 

[ehizzy3]

Agreed. I didn't like it when that happened.

*Edit* However, I think this gets done. Dundon will get a great deal. Portland can't afford to lose the Blazers. Neither can Oregon.

Dundon can’t afford it either

 

[Everything Beagle]

Unfortunately for Tom, Portland got ranked choice voting in time for the last major election, so now we have a few folks who aren't complete corporate shills on the city council.

 

[Everything Beagle]

Dundon can’t afford it either

THEN HE SHOULDN’T HAVE BOUGHT THE DAMN TEAM