Donovan Mitchell?

[Rastapopoulos]

Apparently he's balking at signing long-term with Cleveland. I bet Dan Gilbert would be interested in getting another superstar in Cleveland, so I wonder if he'd consider a Mitchell-for-Dame swap? I don't want Mitchell, but he's certainly a more fungible asset than Dame in that he'd be of interest to a much wider range of teams.

 

[Natebishop3]

Apparently he's balking at signing long-term with Cleveland. I bet Dan Gilbert would be interested in getting another superstar in Cleveland, so I wonder if he'd consider a Mitchell-for-Dame swap? I don't want Mitchell, but he's certainly a more fungible asset than Dame in that he'd be of interest to a much wider range of teams.

No.

More.

Guards.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

F'rinstance:

Obviously I'd prefer to get someone like Giddey from OKC, but I have my doubts we could get him. Crazy that Mitchell's still only 26...

 

[Rastapopoulos]

No.

More.

Guards.

Apparently he's balking at signing long-term with Cleveland. I bet Dan Gilbert would be interested in getting another superstar in Cleveland, so I wonder if he'd consider a Mitchell-for-Dame swap? I don't want Mitchell, but he's certainly a more fungible asset than Dame in that he'd be of interest to a much wider range of teams.

 

[Natebishop3]

I saw what you posted.

It's basically the same problem as Tyro Herro but a much more valuable Tyler Herro, yet still the same problem.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I saw what you posted.

It's basically the same problem as Tyro Herro but a much more valuable Tyler Herro, yet still the same problem.

Not really. Herro's problem is zero defense. Mitchell is one (excellent) season away from fetching a haul we'd be ecstatic to get for Dame.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Not really. Herro's problem is zero defense. Mitchell is one (excellent) season away from fetching a haul we'd be ecstatic to get for Dame.

I am not sure I see much of a difference between the two on defense.

 

[andalusian]

I am not sure I see much of a difference between the two on defense.

I do. The numbers also confirm it. Going by DWS, Mitchell is 50% better than Herro on defense. That's a pretty decent change.

Just for reference, Mitchell's cumulative DWS in 6 years is higher than Dame's in 11 years, let's throw out Dame's injury year, and still Mitchell's DWS is higher in 6 years than Dame's in 10.

A reminder, the Cavs were #1 in defensive efficiency last year despite the fact that they had 2 undersized guards in the back-court and no-one can accuse Garland of being a defensive great. The Cavs were #7 a year before, before Mitchell arrived.

While Mitchell has been excellent on defense, if you remember his pre-draft potential, it was on the defensive end - and he pretty much lives up to it (even if he had some down years in Utah)

 

[Natebishop3]

So here's my question... why would Cleveland want Dame if they're trading Mitchell?

 

[Pinwheel1]

I do. The numbers also confirm it. Going by DWS, Mitchell is 50% better than Herro on defense. That's a pretty decent change.

Not a big stats guy when it comes to defense, but this article confirms what I remember from his days with the Jazz.

https://theathletic.com/3634665/2022/09/27/cavs-donovan-mitchell-defense/

"While the Cavs have the size and length in their frontcourt, there are questions surrounding their backcourt, particularly in newcomer Mitchell. Last season, the Jazz gave up 105.2 points per 100 possessions with Mitchell on the bench and 111.7 points with him on the floor, per NBA Stats. He struggled in the playoffs to defend well, as the Jazz gave up 115.3 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor, versus 104.5 points with Mitchell on the bench over six games in their first-round playoff series against the Dallas Mavericks.

Mitchell was also rated a bottom-20 defender in the NBA by FiveThirtyEight’s RAPTOR. He had a defensive RAPTOR of -2.7, which means the Jazz’ defensive performance fell by 2.7 points per 100 possessions while Mitchell was on the court."

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So here's my question... why would Cleveland want Dame if they're trading Mitchell?

I bet Dan Gilbert would be interested in getting another superstar in Cleveland

 

[Ripcity4life77]

Ya I agree with Nate on this one and we do not agree on much lately but I echo his statement -- NO MORE GUARDS

enough is enough -- lol

 

[Natebishop3]

I bet Dan Gilbert would be interested in getting another superstar in Cleveland

And I'd bet that you'd be wrong. Dame is 33. He's making a ton of money. They have Garland. Dame makes no sense for them.

 

[KingSpeed]

So here's my question... why would Cleveland want Dame if they're trading Mitchell?

Because Dame is better than Mitchell. But I don’t want Mitchell. I want Jarrett Allen.

 

[KingSpeed]

And I'd bet that you'd be wrong. Dame is 33. He's making a ton of money. They have Garland. Dame makes no sense for them.

Dame is in his prime at 33. Dame is one of the best players OF ALL TIME. People have started convincing themselves that he’s not. If you want to win a title, Dame is better than Garland.

 

[Natebishop3]

Because Dame is better than Mitchell. But I don’t want Mitchell. I want Jarrett Allen.

In a vacuum.

They have Darius Garland. They're a young team. Dame makes no sense for them.

 

[Natebishop3]

Dame is in his prime at 33. Dame is one of the best players OF ALL TIME. People have started convincing themselves that he’s not. If you want to win a title, Dame is better than Garland.

Dame doesn't make you a contender. Our team sucked last year, even when healthy.

 

[KingSpeed]

Dame doesn't make you a contender. Our team sucked last year, even when healthy.

Dame makes a good team a contender. Cleveland was a good team last season. With Dame, they are a contender: Saying Dame doesn’t make you a contender is like saying LeBron doesn’t make you a contender because the Lakers missed the playoffs in his first year with them. People are underselling Dame because we had a crappy team last year. And we were great last year when Winslow was healthy. Defense fell apart when he got hurt.

 

[Natebishop3]

Dame makes a good team a contender. Cleveland was a good team last season. With Dame, they are a contender: Saying Dame doesn’t make you a contender is like saying LeBron doesn’t make you a contender because the Lakers missed the playoffs in his first year with them. People are underselling Dame because we had a crappy team last year.

Oh, I'm sorry..... I didn't know that Dame is on the same level as LeBron. How many rings does Dame have? I must have missed a few championship parades.

Dame is a short, score-first point guard who doesn't play defense. He's extremely good at what he does, but he can't be your best player if you want to win a title. Who else would the Cavs have if they moved Mitchell? Do you start Garland and Dame together? That would be hilarious.

 

[andalusian]

Not a big stats guy when it comes to defense, but this article confirms what I remember from his days with the Jazz.

https://theathletic.com/3634665/2022/09/27/cavs-donovan-mitchell-defense/

"While the Cavs have the size and length in their frontcourt, there are questions surrounding their backcourt, particularly in newcomer Mitchell. Last season, the Jazz gave up 105.2 points per 100 possessions with Mitchell on the bench and 111.7 points with him on the floor, per NBA Stats. He struggled in the playoffs to defend well, as the Jazz gave up 115.3 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor, versus 104.5 points with Mitchell on the bench over six games in their first-round playoff series against the Dallas Mavericks.

Mitchell was also rated a bottom-20 defender in the NBA by FiveThirtyEight’s RAPTOR. He had a defensive RAPTOR of -2.7, which means the Jazz’ defensive performance fell by 2.7 points per 100 possessions while Mitchell was on the court."

Mitchel himself admitted that he was bad defensively in his last year in Utah and re-dedicated himself to defense in Cleveland. You can choose to judge him by one bad year, I prefer to judge him by his entire career. Mitchell is a better defender than many guards, especially when you consider that he is actually shorter than Dame.

Once again, the Cavs have basically replaced Sexton on the back end with Mitchell for 2022-2023 and their defense has gone from #7 in the league to #1,

If you want to use 538, use the one for the latest season not just a hand-picked one from his worst defensive year = last year Mitchell was ranked around 150 out of the top 250 players in the NBA on defense, Herro seems to be in the 220-230 range. Clearly, not the same.

Also, unlike other players, Mitchell does not seem to sweep the defensive issues under the rug:

https://heavy.com/sports/cleveland-cavaliers/donovan-mitchell-defense-criticism-garland/


Now, realistically, Mitchel has to work with some limits, he is a 6'1'' guard. While his wingspan is large and he is heavy for his height, you are not going to get a world class defender when he is undersized. But, he is clearly a lot better than Herro which is a 6'5'' guard, so yes, I do see a significant difference between them. One is a liability (Herro), the other is fine, especially when you consider how much more he gives you on offense.

 

[KingSpeed]

Oh, I'm sorry..... I didn't know that Dame is on the same level as LeBron. How many rings does Dame have? I must have missed a few championship parades.

Dame is a short, score-first point guard who doesn't play defense. He's extremely good at what he does, but he can't be your best player if you want to win a title. Who else would the Cavs have if they moved Mitchell? Do you start Garland and Dame together? That would be hilarious.

If Dame goes to Miami, he will be their best player and they will be the favorite.

 

[Ripcity4life77]

KingS -- how is it you have a smart take on Dame ( him being one if the best ever ) yet believe Simmons is still a good player -- you have blown my mind -- LOL

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Why would Cleveland want Dame?
1. We're assuming they HAVE to unload Mitchell or lose him as a FA.
2. I'm assuming Gilbert views the Cavs as a contender and doesn't want to go backwards.
3. The Cavs underperformed with Mitchell in the playoffs so they need a better player than Mitchell.
4. Mitchell is a lot of things but he's not much of a passer. The Cavs' two non-shooting big men could do with another passer in the backcourt.

I think we've forgotten just how good Dame is. Sure people are scared off because he's older and he's about to get paid a shit ton, but there are owners who don't give a shit about that and who just know that he hit all those big shots and scored over 70 in a game last year.

 

[KingSpeed]

KingS -- how is it you have a smart take on Dame ( him being one if the best ever ) yet believe Simmons is still a good player -- you have blown my mind -- LOL

Despite all his challenges, he averaged 6 apg and 6 rpg. Only 12 players did that last year and 2 of those hardly played. Simmons was an effective player last season when the team was all on the same page. The guy was deservedly the #1 pick for crying out loud.

 

[KingSpeed]

I think we've forgotten just how good Dame is.

100%. Dame is an all time great and hasn’t had an All Star teammate in his prime. What are we talking about here??