F'd up move by Israel

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SlyPokerDog

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JERUSALEM – Israeli naval commandos stormed a flotilla of ships carrying aid and hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists to the blockaded Gaza Strip on Monday, killing nine passengers in a botched raid that provoked international outrage and a diplomatic crisis.

Dozens of activists and six Israeli soldiers were wounded in the bloody predawn confrontation in international waters. The violent takeover dealt yet another blow to Israel's international image, already tarnished by war crimes accusations in Gaza and its 3-year-old blockade of the impoverished Palestinian territory.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanhayu canceled a much-anticipated meeting with President Barack Obama in Washington on Tuesday in a sign of just how gravely Israel viewed the uproar. In Canada, Netanyahu announced he was rushing home but said he had called the American president and agreed to meet again.

President Barack Obama voiced "deep regret" over the raid and "expressed the importance of learning all the facts and circumstances" surrounding the incident.

The activists were headed to Gaza to draw attention to the blockade, which Israel and Egypt imposed after the militant Hamas group seized the territory of 1.5 million Palestinians in 2007.

There were conflicting accounts of what happened early Monday, with activists claiming the Israelis opened fire without provocation and Israel insisting its forces fired in self defense.

Speaking alongside the Canadian prime minister, Netanyahu expressed "regret" for the loss of life but said the soldiers had no choice. "Our soldiers had to defend themselves, defend their lives, or they would have been killed," he said.

Israel said it opened fire after its commandos were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers after they rappelled from a helicopter at about 4 a.m. to board one of the vessels.

Night-vision footage released by the military showed soldiers dropping from a helicopter one by one and being grabbed by a mob of men wielding sticks on the lead boat, the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara. The soldiers succumbed to the assailants and fell to the deck, where the men continued to beat them and dump one of them from the top deck.

A commando who spoke to reporters on a naval vessel off the coast, identified only as "A," said he and his comrades were taken off guard by a group of Arabic-speaking men when they landed on the deck.

Some soldiers were stripped of their helmets and equipment and thrown from the top deck to the lower deck, and some had even jumped overboard to save themselves, the commando said. At one point one of the activists seized one of the soldiers' weapons and opened fire, the commando said.

Communications to the ships were cut shortly after the raid began, and activists were kept away from reporters after their boats were towed to the Israeli port of Ashdod.

Helicopters evacuated the wounded to Israeli hospitals, officials said. Five ships had reached port by early evening and some 136 activists had been removed without serious incident, the military said.

Sixteen were jailed for refusing to identify themselves, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. Israel had said activists would be given the choice to be deported or imprisoned.

Israeli officials said the death toll was nine with 30 wounded, after earlier saying 10 people were killed. It said the final tally was reached after bringing all six boats in the flotilla under control.

A high-ranking naval official displayed a box confiscated from the boat containing switchblades, slingshots, metal balls and metal bats. Most of the dead were Turkish, he said.

In a sign the soldiers didn't anticipate such fierce resistance, two commandos told The Associated Press that the primary weapons were guns that fired paintballs — a nonlethal weapon that can be used to subdue crowds. They said they resorted to lethal handgun fire after they were assaulted.

Turkey's NTV network showed activists beating one commando with sticks as he landed on one of the boats. Dr. Arnon Afek, deputy director of Chaim Sheba Medical Center outside Tel Aviv, said two commandos were brought in with gunshot wounds. Another had serious head wounds from an unspecified blow, Afek added.

Activists, however, painted a completely different picture, saying the commandos stormed the ships after ordering them to stop in international waters, about 80 miles (130 kilometers) from Gaza's coast.

A reporter with the pan-Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera, who was sailing on the Turkish ship leading the flotilla, said the Israelis fired at the vessel before boarding it, wounding the captain.

"These savages are killing people here, please help," a Turkish television reporter said.

The broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!"

At Barzilai hospital in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon, a few activists trickled in under military escort. "They hit me," said a Greek man, whose right arm was in a sling, calling the Israelis "pirates." He did not give his name and later was escorted away with a neck brace.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv, Israel's military chief of staff and navy commander said the violence was centered on the lead boat, which was carrying 600 of the 700 activists. Troops took over the five other boats without incident, military chief Gabi Ashkenazi said.

Reaction was swift and harsh, with a massive protest in Turkey, Israel's longtime Muslim ally, which unofficially supported the mission. Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan accused Israel of "state terrorism," and the government said it was recalling its ambassador and called off military exercises with the Jewish state.

The U.N. Security Council held an emergency meeting later Monday, while the Arab League planned to meet Tuesday in Cairo.

Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters.

"As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said.


Many of the activists were from Europe.

The European Union deplored what it called excessive use of force and called for the Gaza blockade to be lifted immediately, calling it "politically unacceptable."

Israeli security forces were on alert across the country. Protesters gathered at two universities and burned tires and threw rocks in Israel's largest Arab city, but no injuries were reported.

Organizers said two prominent activists, 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire and Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein, 85, did not join the flotilla as planned.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the Israeli "massacre," declared three days of mourning across the West Bank.

Ismail Haniyeh, leader of the rival Hamas government in Gaza, condemned the "brutal" Israeli attack and called on U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to intervene.

In Uganda, Ban condemned the deaths and called for a "thorough" investigation.

Before the ships set sail from waters off Cyprus on Sunday, Israel had urged the flotilla not to try to breach the blockade and offered to transfer some of the cargo to Gaza from an Israeli port, following a security inspection.

Organizers included the IHH, an Islamic humanitarian group that is based in Istanbul but operates in several other countries. Israel outlawed the group in 2008 because of its ties to Hamas.

The flotilla of three cargo ships and three passenger ships carrying 10,000 tons of aid and 700 activists was carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
 
Excessive is a good adjective for the this whole situation. describes the initial attack and the responses.

When I first heard about this on NPR it said the Israeli forces fired before making verbal contact. I've read otherwise since. we'll never have the true account of what happened
 
Excessive is a good adjective for the this whole situation. describes the initial attack and the responses.

When I first heard about this on NPR it said the Israeli forces fired before making verbal contact. I've read otherwise since. we'll never have the true account of what happened

Fired what? All they've found are slingshots and metal balls.
 
Honestly you have to feel sorry for those Israeli soldiers, I can just picture their briefing now, "Ok, here's the plan. You're going to repel one at a time from a helicopter onto a ship full of pissed off Arabs. Make sure you yell really loud over the noise of helicopter, 'Stand back, I've got a paintball gun and I'm not afraid to use it!' We feel that this will be the best way to calm down this volatile situation. Good luck!"
 
I've read otherwise since. we'll never have the true account of what happened

I think you misread my first response

I understood your first response. I'm just pointing out that we are getting a true account of what happened. Even Israel is saying that the aid ships didn't have guns on board until they brought them.
 
The lesson to be learned? Don't bring sling shots, knives, & clubs to a gun fight.
 
I understood your first response. I'm just pointing out that we are getting a true account of what happened. Even Israel is saying that the aid ships didn't have guns on board until they brought them.

but there are conflicting reports as to if the Israelis fired before they boarded. This is just one party's word against another
 
They boarded, uninvited, and should have expected to be killed for their unprovoked attack on an aid ship.
 
by definition, if you fight back you're not an "aid ship". Doctors, chaplains, nurses, etc. can't carry weapons--hence their terms of being "non-combatants".
 
that being said, I haven't read anything about this yet, so I'm not going to offer any BS opinions.
 
by definition, if you fight back you're not an "aid ship". Doctors, chaplains, nurses, etc. can't carry weapons--hence their terms of being "non-combatants".

Really? What if it was Somali pirates instead of Israelis? Was the ship staffed entirely by doctors chaplains, and nurses?

barfo
 
by definition, if you fight back you're not an "aid ship". Doctors, chaplains, nurses, etc. can't carry weapons--hence their terms of being "non-combatants".

They didn't carry arms (slingshots and such hardly count)...they used the soliders' own guns against them, apparently. Anyone is allowed to defend themselves.
 
one lesson many nations should have learned long time ago is you don't want to fuck with the israelis

I condemn what they did but lets not excuse the ships that tried to provoke them in the first place, of course israel army could have been humane and stopped them in the ocean and made them return to wherever they came from.
 
one lesson many nations should have learned long time ago is you don't want to fuck with the Israelis

I condemn what they did but lets not excuse the ships that tried to provoke them in the first place, of course Israel army could have been humane and stopped them in the ocean and made them return to wherever they came from.

There have been 9 previous times where these aid ships have shown up and brought aid & supplies. 5 Times the Israelis allowed the ships to come to port, then searched them and then allowed the aid to be given out, 4 times they have blocked the ships from landing at port and the were turned away. This was the only time these ships were met in international water and boarded by masked Israeli commandos, some of the biggest bad asses on the planet. Based on Israels previous actions this was very unusual.
 
by definition, if you fight back you're not an "aid ship". Doctors, chaplains, nurses, etc. can't carry weapons--hence their terms of being "non-combatants".

By whose definition? Certainly not any generally accepted court or government.

Is it your view that only armies are allowed to defend themselves when attacked? That's ridiculous.

The Israelis attacked a ship, unprovoked, as is their normal M.O., and it's a damn shame they weren't all slaughtered for their crimes.

Fuck Israel and everything they stand for. The most aggressively racist country in the world.
 
Geneva Convention. Pretty much accepted by "civilized nations' courts and governments".

Chaplains, etc. are "non-combatants". They wear a uniform, but they're not allowed to be targeted by GC, and they aren't allowed to carry/use weapons, or else you lose your status.

"Fuck Israel and everything they stand for?" You're not the first with that attitude, though sadly the list you share company with isn't the most impressive in history.
 
Geneva Convention. Pretty much accepted by "civilized nations' courts and governments".

Chaplains, etc. are "non-combatants". They wear a uniform, but they're not allowed to be targeted by GC, and they aren't allowed to carry/use weapons, or else you lose your status.

"Fuck Israel and everything they stand for?" You're not the first with that attitude, though sadly the list you share company with isn't the most impressive in history.

You're pretty confused about what the Geneva Convention means and addresses, what a weapon is in that context, and who I share company with.

Attacking CIVILIANS BRINGING AID (RED CROSS FOR EXAMPLE) is what happened here. Israel has been doing this crap for decades, although since Bush turned a blind eye for eight years they have gone completely berserk in their genocidal behavior towards Arabs and their allies. No treaty is too strong for them to break, no human being too frail for them to torture.
 
Give California to Israel. The arabs can have whatever land they want there and we can get rid of California AND THE LAKERS all in one motion. Awesome.

I had to edit this to remove a part about the Israelis getting rid of the illegals. Let them deal with them however they want.
 
Believe me, the Geneva Convention is something I'm pretty familiar with.

Anyway, as I said before, I haven't read anything about this yet. I have no idea what the israelis did, who they did it to, etc. I was responding to your post above which said "They boarded, uninvited, and should have expected to be killed for their unprovoked attack on an aid ship." All I wanted to add to the conversation is that, if you are performing an act of war (which, if you're using uniformed members of a government military service, you are--it's not a terrorist act) by illegally boarding an "aid vessel" on the high seas, then you shouldn't have expected to be killed, b/c you're attacking non-combatants. Or if you did, it's not an "aid vessel". Anyone that picks up an arm against you is now a combatant. According to the Protocol One and the Rome Statutes of Geneva Convention you can't attack a civilian...but if they try to fight, they're not civilians.

As for the "who you share company with", the following people have announced some form of "Fuck Israel and Everything They Stand For" racial epithets before: the Crusaders, various populaces during the Black Plague who thought it was spread by Jews, not rats; Martin Luther (though only advocating killing those who didn't convert to Christianity); the KKK starting up again in 1915 in the Leo Frank Affair (after being dormant since right after the Civil War); Hitler and a horde of his cronies; Stalin; various Arab leaders like Arafat and Ahmedinejad, the Neo-Nazis, etc. Not a lot of confusion on my part there, unless you were just kidding about the whole "Fuck Israel and Everything They Stand For" thing. Then, my fault. Otherwise... :dunno: ... YOU MAKE THE CALL!
 
No offense Brian, but not all of us accept the meme that the *country* of Israel = the *religion* of Judaism.
 
None taken. Are you saying it's acceptable then to say either of the following (for instance):

"Fuck Mexicans and Everything they Stand For"
"Fuck Muslims and Everything they Stand For"

I mean, one decouples a country from their faith(s) and just wants to wipe out a country. One decouples countries from people of a faith and just wants to wipe out a people group. Which one is right, again? No matter if you take it as "Fuck the Country of Israel, its Inhabitants of any faith (or none) and everything they stand for" or "Fuck the Adherents of the Religion of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", neither (to me) is acceptable, and both deserve to be called out as bullshit. Unless it was a joke, in which case imho it was poor taste, but hardly the worst thing seen on here.
 
Anyone that picks up an arm against you is now a combatant. According to the Protocol One and the Rome Statutes of Geneva Convention you can't attack a civilian...but if they try to fight, they're not civilians.

Civilians aren't allowed to defend themselves from being attacked without losing their civilian status? If, for example, a civilian is attacked in his home by a soldier and defends himself, he stops being a civilian?

Either you're incorrect, or the Geneva Conventions are incredibly irrational on this point.
 
When people say "Fuck Country X", what they almost always mean is "Fuck the government of Country X."

People being critical of the actions of the Israeli government, or any other government, doesn't offend me one iota.

Now, if someone falsely accused the PM of Israel of being a pedophile - that would be a different matter. Going after him for his actions/policies, seems to me to be fair game.
 
None taken. Are you saying it's acceptable then to say either of the following (for instance):

"Fuck Mexicans and Everything they Stand For"
"Fuck Muslims and Everything they Stand For"

You subtly but meaningfully changed it in building your examples. MARIS said "Fuck Israel" not "Fuck Israelis." As oldmangrouch noted, criticizing a nation is generally shorthand for their government and international presence, not every person within its borders. It's not being a Nazi sympathizer to criticize Israeli policy.
 
Or Part Three, it's not generally understood by people who don't have to live it every day.

Few points here.

First, the Geneva Conventions govern humanitarian treatment of people in time of war. Is this being considered an act of war? I don't know. I'd surmise that since a uniformed group of a country's military attacked another country on the high seas, whether it's Turkish aid workers, Liberian-flagged cruise ships, etc., it's considered war and not piracy or another criminal act. But again, I don't know much about this.
Second, a civilian is one who "doesn't take part in hostilities". It's not really tough, or irrational. If the Israeli troops were committing a military act against an "aid vessel" of nurses and missionaries, then they're bound by GC protocol on their new prisoners in the civilian category. They can't just shoot them b/c they took over the ship...that's a War Crime. If you pick up a gun and try to repel boarders, you're now a combatant. Different rules apply to you.
So yes, if someone is attacked in their home during war, it's a war crime. It's not supposed to happen. If it does, and you shoot back (b/c you don't want to die at the hands of a war criminal) then you just became a combatant. If someone attacked in their home outside of war, it's a criminal act, not a war act.
 
that being said, I haven't read anything about this yet, so I'm not going to offer any BS opinions.

Anyway, as I said before, I haven't read anything about this yet. I have no idea what the israelis did, who they did it to, etc.

But again, I don't know much about this.

Why not take a moment and read an article or two instead of qualifying all of your posts by telling people you haven't read anything about this? I even posed an entire article and included a link when I started this thread.
 

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