Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/thre

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Denny Crane

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http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/public-privacy/#ixzz10GwocAiu

Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’

The Obama administration has urged a federal appeals court to allow the government, without a court warrant, to affix GPS devices on suspects’ vehicles to track their every move.

The Justice Department is demanding a federal appeals court rehear a case in which it reversed the conviction and life sentence of a cocaine dealer whose vehicle was tracked via GPS for a month, without a court warrant. The authorities then obtained warrants to search and find drugs in the locations where defendant Antoine Jones had travelled.

The administration, in urging the full U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia to reverse a three-judge panel’s August ruling from the same court, said Monday that Americans should expect no privacy while in public.

“The panel’s conclusion that Jones had a reasonable expectation of privacy in the public movements of his Jeep rested on the premise that an individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy in the totality of his or her movements in public places, ” Assistant U.S. Attorney Peter Smith wrote the court in a petition for rehearing.

The case is an important test of privacy rights as GPS devices have become a common tool in crime fighting, and can be affixed to moving vehicles by an officer shooting a dart. Three other circuit courts have already said the authorities do not need a warrant for GPS vehicle tracking, Smith pointed out.

The circuit’s ruling means that, in the District of Columbia area, the authorities need a warrant to install a GPS-tracking device on a vehicle. But in much of the United States, including the West, a warrant is not required. Unless the circuit changes it mind, only the Supreme Court can mandate a uniform rule.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

This is why I walk everywhere... of course, the police could affix a GPS tracker on my fat ass and I might not notice! :D
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.

j/k. I'm not a fan of warrant-less GPS affixing.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

The administration, in urging the full U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia to reverse a three-judge panel’s August ruling from the same court, said Monday that Americans should expect no privacy while in public.

I was all for it until it came to this sentence. First, it's absurd on its face. Second, define "while in public". Does it mean anywhere I may go outside my house or apartment? Does it mean only while away from any private dwelling or building as in an outdoor cafe? What about my private car? That's about as Orwellian as it can get. I mean, I applaud the tailing of a convicted drug trafficker as I think one loses a certain amount of rights due to certain types of convictions, but "any american". That's way over the top.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

I disagree that a person has the reasonable expectation of privacy in public places, but the guy's jeep and a person's body are private property.

In public places, you may be video taped by multiple cameras, and I don't see any reason to stop putting up (security) cameras. And the police can look at those video tapes, as we see on TV all the time (video of some guy robbing a 7-11 store or whatever).

The police can follow anyone they want in public places. They can follow you as you drive or walk down the street. There's never been any issue with that.

Attaching a GPS device is a very different thing, as it does violate property rights. The car/jeep is not public property. A warrant is clearly required by the constitution for several reasons:

5th amendment in part reads:

nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


(That's three reasons right there!)

The 4th amendment reads:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The car/jeep is one of the guy's effects.

Of course, there are cases where a warrant is not immediately required, as in the case of wiretapping terrorists' phones.

Go Obama!
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

Big brother... The funny thing is, thousands of Americans use On Star, which is basically the same thing. On Star can go as far as stopping your car while it's in motion and locking/unlocking the doors. That kind of control is scary.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

How would one expect privacy about where they are if they are driving in their car? Explain to me how we would enforce that... "I am driving in my car... you are voilating the law if you are looking at me!"
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

This is mainly all a big show to give the false impression to citizens that they indeed still have privacy.

Every car, truck or van sold in the US already has a gps chip installed at the factory. This has been the case for several years now.

Also, our government, and many others, already can get a quite detailed visual and audio of all living entities in just about any building on earth, especially our homes.

Of course, the police are not given access to this technology as they are just as likely to resist as an ordinary citizen when the overthrow comes.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

How would one expect privacy about where they are if they are driving in their car? Explain to me how we would enforce that... "I am driving in my car... you are violating the law if you are looking at me!"

Not everyone lives in an apartment. Some people own thousands of acres of land.

I drive my car on my own and other's private property every day. I have spent nearly a week driving it daily at a friend's ranch without ever leaving private property. Sometimes it's parked in a private garage.

I used to own a windowless van and everyone but the front seat riders had an expectation of privacy.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.

I know you're joking but even so that statement has never held a grain of truth.

It is not my loyalty to my country that comes to question here, but that of the people who control "the government".

I'm not the one who keeps trying to circumvent personal freedoms this country is based on and therefore destroy it.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

How would one expect privacy about where they are if they are driving in their car? Explain to me how we would enforce that... "I am driving in my car... you are voilating the law if you are looking at me!"

The issue isn't that the cops can look at some car in public places, it's that they attached a GPS device to someone's car without a warrant.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

The issue isn't that the cops can look at some car in public places, it's that they attached a GPS device to someone's car without a warrant.

In another test case (or maybe stemming from the same one) being appealed Oregon DEA trespassed onto private property to attach a gps and later arrested a man for marijuana dealing. Demonstrating that several Federal judges have forgotten everything they ever knew about The Constitution and it's amendments, and most of the basics from law school, or are merely servants of the New World Order, they ruled it okay.

http://www.switched.com/2010/08/28/cops-dont-need-warrants-to-plant-gps-on-cars-federal-court-say/
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

The issue isn't that the cops can look at some car in public places, it's that they attached a GPS device to someone's car without a warrant.

I know how you feel... I feel the same way about parking tickets... wish they couldn't attach them to my car either. ;)

I do get your point... but I just personally don't feel there is a problem with it. As someone already mentioned... you car is already recording quite a bit of data about what it is doing.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

I know how you feel... I feel the same way about parking tickets... wish they couldn't attach them to my car either. ;)

I do get your point... but I just personally don't feel there is a problem with it. As someone already mentioned... you car is already recording quite a bit of data about what it is doing.

The principle doesn't bother you? Would you be okay with law enforcement attaching an information-recording device to your shoe without you noticing? A shoe, like your car, is just a possession you use...if you use it on public streets, etc, isn't it fair game also?
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

The principle doesn't bother you? Would you be okay with law enforcement attaching an information-recording device to your shoe without you noticing? A shoe, like your car, is just a possession you use...if you use it on public streets, etc, isn't it fair game also?

Personally no... I really don't have a problem with it. Hide GPSs in gum on the street I don't care. If I am being targeted by something like that it is because I a suspected of something quite a bit more serious than jaywalking... and if they didn't have a valid reason to suspect something specific *before* they put the GPS on me... than I am pretty sure they can't use the information anyway.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

and if they didn't have a valid reason to suspect something specific *before* they put the GPS on me... than I am pretty sure they can't use the information anyway.

A warrant is usually what determines whether they have "valid reason to suspect something specific." If they can do this without a warrant, it means they don't need that valid reason.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

I know how you feel... I feel the same way about parking tickets... wish they couldn't attach them to my car either. ;)

I do get your point... but I just personally don't feel there is a problem with it. As someone already mentioned... you car is already recording quite a bit of data about what it is doing.

If you buy a car, you are making a contract with the auto maker. Specifically something like onStar or other service related features the car might have.

If you are being watched on the street by cameras, it is private businesses that put those up for security reasons. It's not big brother; the camera put up by the liquor store owner is not part of the same monitoring system as the camera put up by the laundromat.

This is why there's even a huge stink about the police putting up cameras at stoplights.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

A warrant is usually what determines whether they have "valid reason to suspect something specific." If they can do this without a warrant, it means they don't need that valid reason.

Warrant's aren't used to search cars pulled over from traffic violations are they? We have an ammendment in the Constitution against unreasonable search and seasure... I am sure it would apply to placement of GPS devices too.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

I used to own a windowless van and everyone but the front seat riders had an expectation of privacy.

This one?

free_candy.jpg


A lot of things now make sense.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

Ok, assume you own a large closed garage and you have 10 vehicles in it. One of which has a GPS device in it that police installed without a warrant.

You load that vehicle into a closed car hauler INSIDE your own garage where nobody can see you do this.

You drive said car hauler all over the country committing tons of crimes without ever taking the car with the GPS out of the hauler for the public to see.

Nobody sees you commit these crimes, but the police go over the GPS data and retrace your steps and find evidence that they would have never found if they didn't have the GPS data.

That should be allowed by the court, really?
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

Oh I forgot, they want to make sure that GPS jammers are illegal. I mean, the government can have them but they don't want us to because it will mess up cell phones and planes might crash and some other bullshit might happen.
 
Re: Feds: Privacy Does Not Exist in ‘Public Places’ Read More http://www.wired.com/

Oh I forgot, they want to make sure that GPS jammers are illegal. I mean, the government can have them but they don't want us to because it will mess up cell phones and planes might crash and some other bullshit might happen.

You really want people jamming you car navigation device?
 

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