For all the bitchin about Travis Outlaw makin mistakes on the floor...

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KingSpeed

KingSpeed

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..... I'd like to point out that SIX Blazers commit more turnovers than Travis.

Look for a big game by Travis tonight at Staples.
 
Sadly, mistakes don't necessarily mean turnovers.
 
KingSpeed said:
..... I'd like to point out that SIX Blazers commit more turnovers than Travis.

Look for a big game by Travis tonight at Staples.
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Stop looking at boxscores Eric and watch the game. Travis makes turnovers and takes bad shots when the game is on the line. Sure, he makes some of those shots, but that doesn't make it all okay.

He also tends to leave three point shooters wide open, which doesn't show up in a boxscore.
 
eric i love your passion but take off the rose colored glasses...your avitar is a ticking time bomb
 
PapaG said:
Yes, it summarizes how opinions matter more than stats to the "I cringe when Outlaw has the ball" crowd.
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You're really trying to argue about Outlaw after he wasn't even paying enough attention to catch the pass he had just cut for?

If you want to profile people who have various reasons for not being confident in Outlaw, that's nice, but lately Outlaw has been pretty bad. That's backed by my opinion, stats, and the gameplay itself.
 
PapaG said:
Yes, it summarizes how opinions matter more than stats to the "I cringe when Outlaw has the ball" crowd.
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Pops! Missed you the last couple of days...had some good Outlaw discussion.

If you want factoids and stats, just let me know. Dug up a lot the last few days.
 
That +/- stat that shows Travis is the Blazers' worst player is not a distortion. I do believe that Travis is the Blazers' worst player. He gets his stats because he plays a lot of minutes.
 
Hey Eric, since you love Boxscores so much, how's this one?

1/8, 2 rbds, 1 assist, 4 fouls, 3 points in 16 minutes?
 
B-Roy said:
Hey Eric, since you love Boxscores so much, how's this one?

1/8, 2 rbds, 1 assist, 4 fouls, 3 points in 16 minutes?
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I'd say checkmate, but I'm sure he'll figure something out to re-direct this.
 
Honestly, this wasn't even one of the games I don't like Travis in. He didn't play great, got it. He made a dumb mistake or two, sure.

But this was a colossal team effort loss in the 2nd half. Would I have liked to see Batum more than Outlaw? Sure. But that's Nate's bag, not Travis's.

I hated Blake's game tonight much more than Travis's. It wasn't close enough at the end for a boneheaded move.
 
Travis had a bad game. Only a couple games ago, though, he dunked on KG. Can't I like him for that?
 
Travis sucked, but he's not the one to blame tonight. Blake was downright atrocious in the third quarter, along with Rudy. Those two couldn't hit the ocean when we needed them.
 
alex42083 said:
Travis sucked, but he's not the one to blame tonight. Blake was downright atrocious in the third quarter, along with Rudy. Those two couldn't hit the ocean when we needed them.
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Very true, KingSpeed I'm all for loving Travis for the dunks on KG, Carney, and the like, but I don't think it necessarily makes up for other things.
 
travis is way to inconsitent for a 6th year player. we need reliable bench options if we are ever gonna get deep in the playoffs
 
ehizzy3 said:
travis is way to inconsitent for a 6th year player. we need reliable bench options if we are ever gonna get deep in the playoffs
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A player who was consistently as good as Outlaw's "high level" would be a no-doubt starter in the league. A "reliable" bench option would not make the mistakes Outlaw makes, but also wouldn't give you the great plays Outlaw does. I think Outlaw is a pretty good reserve, even for a championship-caliber team. He can be a difference-maker, or he can be unproductive...that's why he's on the bench.

A wildcard like that can be a very useful reserve.
 
I just invented this Travis analogy:

Travis is like having four-to-a-flush after the flop. Sometimes you'll get the flush and crush the opponent. More often you pay to see the cards and end up with king-high. People always remember the big hands where they got the flush on the river and keep playing that way, even though you're basically a 32% chance to win the hand. Useful, sometimes, as a change-of-pace strategy or if you smell weakness. Not something you go all-in on. Not something you commit chips to consistently, unless you want to lose.

Travis getting 29 mpg in the last 6 (before tonight), especially big crunch-time minutes when he's not playing well, is betting hard on the flush. People remember the great plays he has that get us the win, and generally discount the times you get beat by him not coming up like you hoped.

As I've said elsewhere, I didn't really have a problem with Travis this game. Nate tried him as a spark, it wasn't working, he wasn't making shots, so he wasn't in very long. :dunno: If we'd somehow managed to cut the lead to 3 with two minutes left, and TO was put back in, I'd probably have more of a cow about it.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I just invented this Travis analogy:

Travis is like having four-to-a-flush after the flop. Sometimes you'll get the flush and crush the opponent. More often you pay to see the cards and end up with king-high. People always remember the big hands where they got the flush on the river and keep playing that way, even though you're basically a 32% chance to win the hand. Useful, sometimes, as a change-of-pace strategy or if you smell weakness. Not something you go all-in on. Not something you commit chips to consistently, unless you want to lose.
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The problem with this analogy is that I think we have a good approximation of the "expected value" of Outlaw, which is his PER. His career PER has been right around 15, which is league average for a starter. His inconsistency in attaining that PER makes him a non-ideal starter to me, but his "average value" makes him a pretty valuable reserve, as far as I'm concerned.
 
ehizzy3 said:
travis is way to inconsitent for a 6th year player. we need reliable bench options if we are ever gonna get deep in the playoffs
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This is true, yet I still keep seeing Outlaw's name as the centerpiece of trades trying to get Gerald Wallace or Butler to Portland?!? Like he's supposed to be a nice tie in with expiring contracts to break deals with teams who can get better from other teams?

It's like the only time I hear glowing reports on Outlaw's upside is when his name is trying to be sold in a trade idea? Which Outlaw are we talking about....there can only be one real slim shady....lol
 
BrianFromWA said:
I

As I've said elsewhere, I didn't really have a problem with Travis this game. Nate tried him as a spark, it wasn't working, he wasn't making shots, so he wasn't in very long. :dunno: If we'd somehow managed to cut the lead to 3 with two minutes left, and TO was put back in, I'd probably have more of a cow about it.
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Here's the thing, I don't mind Travis getting minutes when he's playing well. But for every good play you get out of him, you get ridiculously crappy ones. If he's playing smart, making passes and not forcing his shot, keep him in Nate like you already are. But when he's off, he needs to get yanked a bit sooner IMO.

As far as Minstrel's thing about him being a bench player and us not having starting-player production expectations of him, Travis is playing almost 2/3 of the game. I don't care if he comes off of the bench or out of the crowd, I have decent expectations if you're going to be playing that much, especially as a 6th year player. I understand that nobody's perfect, but I think we can have players playing (not so much right now with the Roy/Webster injuries) that don't have as blatant of negatives as he does, that really ruin a team's chance for winning. It's not just a missed shot, or an errant pass that bugs me, it's the wasted possessions. He's gotten better at passing rather than just being a pull-up jumper magnet, but he seems like he's replacing those mistakes with decisions that put our team in a position to fail. Not that anyone on our team outside of maybe Pryzbilla, Batum, and at times Roy and Bayless are doing that great on D, but I'm also not really happy with his play there. If his main weapon is his athleticism, I feel like he could harness that a bit better to be more efficient defensively. Again, I don't hate Travis Outlaw, I hate that he makes poor decisions in spurts that ruin the chances of success for the Blazers. Obviously when he's on, he's absolute money, but I feel like I'm seeing less and less of that this year, and I'd rather go with Webster/Batum, and potentially a few minutes of Roy/Rudy playing wing together than participate in the Travis Outlaw development anymore.
 
He needs to play less; specially when he missed his first three. After he usually starts off cold, he makes mental mistakes. That's when coach needs to take him out. Should have done it sooner.

Also, Rudy needs to go back to the second unit with Sergio, its blatantly obvious that they are more effective playing together. We need Martel back soooooooooooo bad. Start him at the 2; Nicholas at the 3, and I think we'd have a better, most "gooder" time.
 
B-Roy said:
Sadly, mistakes don't necessarily mean turnovers.
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Thank you.

Travis can stay trapped in the corner against the Magic, leaving Roy with no where to go and having to heave up a 3 pointer and missing it, blowing the game for us... and Travis would not get a turnover for it.

Bonehead moves don't mean turnovers.
 
LameR said:
As far as Minstrel's thing about him being a bench player and us not having starting-player production expectations of him, Travis is playing almost 2/3 of the game. I don't care if he comes off of the bench or out of the crowd, I have decent expectations if you're going to be playing that much, especially as a 6th year player. I understand that nobody's perfect, but I think we can have players playing (not so much right now with the Roy/Webster injuries)
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But that's the point. He's playing so much because we only have two small forwards, and one of them is a rookie who's much, much more inconsistent on the offensive end. If Aldridge, Diogu and Frye were injured and Shavlik Randolph were playing starter minutes, would we criticize him for being an awful starter? He's not a starter...he would be pressed into that role out of lack of other options. Right now, at small forward, we can play Outlaw or Batum. Batum impresses me on defense and with his offensive potential...but his actual production this year has been terrible after the good start.

Outlaw is playing 2/3rds of the game because the team has no other options. Playing Batum 1/2 the game or more would not be beneficial, IMO. Neither Roy nor Fernandez has the size to play small forward, and I don't think it would be wise to mess with Roy, as well as he was playing, by shifting his position.

The team is weak at small forward. If the team had a really good small forward (like, say, Gerald Wallace) then Outlaw would play a much reduced role. Essentially, if you don't like Outlaw playing 2/3rds of the game, who do you feel should soaking up his minutes?
 
Minstrel said:
But that's the point. He's playing so much because we only have two small forwards, and one of them is a rookie who's much, much more inconsistent on the offensive end. If Aldridge, Diogu and Frye were injured and Shavlik Randolph were playing starter minutes, would we criticize him for being an awful starter? He's not a starter...he would be pressed into that role out of lack of other options. Right now, at small forward, we can play Outlaw or Batum. Batum impresses me on defense and with his offensive potential...but his actual production this year has been terrible after the good start.

Outlaw is playing 2/3rds of the game because the team has no other options. Playing Batum 1/2 the game or more would not be beneficial, IMO. Neither Roy nor Fernandez has the size to play small forward, and I don't think it would be wise to mess with Roy, as well as he was playing, by shifting his position.

The team is weak at small forward. If the team had a really good small forward (like, say, Gerald Wallace) then Outlaw would play a much reduced role. Essentially, if you don't like Outlaw playing 2/3rds of the game, who do you feel should soaking up his minutes?
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At the same time, there is something to be said of being productive with the few minutes you have, or more minutes you have. When you have a chance to play more minutes, step up, not step out. It still doesn't explain why he passes up a wide open shot for a dribble drive contested pull up jumper. It still doesn't explain why he leaves good 3 point shooter open in the right hand corner time after time after time. These are mistakes that can be rectified mentally, but he continues to make them. The only thing that pisses me off more is when the guards on the team cheat on the screen and leave the PF isolated on a PG. If I notice it, and I am just a fan, shouldn't the guys who are on the team, have figured it out, say years ago?
 
hasoos said:
At the same time, there is something to be said of being productive with the few minutes you have, or more minutes you have. When you have a chance to play more minutes, step up, not step out.
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I really don't know what that means, to be honest. Players don't magically become better when injuries force them to play bigger roles. Saying "step up" may sound good (good, tough rhetoric...no excuses, not even lack of talent!) but if they could have "stepped up" and become better players, they already would have since it means more fame and money. Outlaw is what he is...an athletic player who can be really good or make mistakes. If he weren't mistake-prone, he'd be a much better player. But he is mistake-prone. I doubt he wants to be...if he knew how to eliminate them, I'm sure he would have by now.

Outlaw is productive. He's just not extremely productive. That's why he's a reserve and paid like one. Him playing starter minutes isn't ideal but happens because the team has a weakness at small forward.
 
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