OT Forgotten franchise: The demise of the Vancouver Grizzlies

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Grizzles makes a lot more sense in Vancouver than it does in Memphis. It's like the Utah Jazz. We need to do some kind of name trading. Trade the Jazz to New Oreleans, the Jazz can take on the Grizzly name, and memphis can get the name Kings from Sacramento. The Pelicans nickname can be destroyed, and Sacremento can become the (anyone from Sacremento want to give them a new name?)

Lakers should go back to Minnesota and LA can become the la smog.
 
Sinobas said:
...Sacremento can become the (anyone from Sacremento want to give them a new name?)
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Irrelevants?
Bankrupt Staters?
Pie in the Facers?
Cow Pie'ers?
Man, it's hot here!er?
Armpit of the NBA'ers?
Wish we still had Vlade'ers?
Only place left in CA with reasonable home prices because no one wants to live there'ers?
 
Vancouver establishing itself as a world-class city begs the question: Did the NBA give up too soon on the Vancouver Grizzlies?
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No, it was premature. Anyone who spent time in Vancouver in the '90s knows how little interest there was in basketball. If the league had waited 15-20 years before expanding there, it might have worked. Stern put the cart before the horse.

Now, a fair question would be, would the recent growth in popularity have happened on the same timeline without the Grizzlies having been there when they were?
 
If Steve Francis didn't refuse to play there after being drafted, I think they might have had a chance. They needed a marketable star and he would have given them that in 99.
 
craigehlo said:
If Steve Francis didn't refuse to play there after being drafted, I think they might have had a chance. They needed a marketable star and he would have given them that in 99.
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They don't have the fanbase to support an NBA team...would be better to have a D league affiliate in Vancouver
 
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I wonder when Seattle is going to get a team.
 
I'm suprised we don't play there for preseason games and market there harder. It's a huge market that's only 5 hrs or so away. We could really expand our brand in an international market that Vancouver is
 
riverman said:
They don't have the fanbase to support an NBA team...would be better to have a D league affiliate in Vancouver
Click to expand...

It took Vince Carter to make basketball work in Toronto, the Grizz never had a marketable star like that. Canucks regularly sellout their stadium, so it's not the size of the market. There was no patience in the league to let things work.
 
Vancouver is an amazing city, the NBA was foolish to pull the Grizz out there. The NBA needs to put franchises back in Seattle and Vancouver.
 
Yeah it would be great if Vancouver got an NBA team.

But how sticking an NHL team in Seattle or Portland first. Stop sticking them where lizards go sun themselves.
 
The whispers of a possible move had been rampant for months...The fans knew it was over. They also knew it never really was...They...never fully connected with the community. The team’s tenure was defined by poor management, bad contracts and missed draft opportunities.
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Bullshit. They fully connected with the community, which loved them and was learning the sport of basketball.

David Stern, former NBA commissioner, admitted to ESPN.com in 2008 that the Vancouver Grizzlies was one of his biggest regrets. "As it turns out, I wish we hadn't had the Vancouver experience,” he said. “Great city, and we disappointed them and we disappointed ourselves."
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In a surprise to Vancouver and the whole NBA, Stern offered Vancouver a team in his quest to open international teams (notice how all that talk died with Stern's departure?). The new Vancouver owners whom he found complied with his demands to sell enough season tickets and get 41 nights from General Motors Place, which already had an NHL team. The neophyte owners asked, who do you recommend as our General Manager? Stern looked at his best earnest young secretary, who took orders well, couldn't manage anything, and had failed as Knicks coach, and answered...

Stu Jackson, the team’s GM, has long been one of the public scapegoats for the franchise’s struggles. The team had five coaches in six seasons. He signed “Big Country” Reeves to a six-year, $61.8 million extension, despite the center being injury prone, inconsistent and regularly out-of-shape. He missed the mark with several draft picks such as Antonio Daniels, Stromile Swift and Francis, who openly warned the team not to draft him.
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There were logistical issues as well. For the first few seasons, the team could not fly directly into Canada. They were instead forced to travel from Bellingham, Washington, a 45-minute drive from the Grizzlies’ practice facility in Richmond, British Columbia. “One time we flew back from Miami on a red eye and when we got to Bellingham, we had to take a bus, go through customs, drive to our practice facility, then drive home,” recalls Hollins. “It was rough.”...“It was a learning experience for the people in Canada.” While hockey was still the preferred sport, the introduction of NBA basketball was a breath of fresh air for young fans across Vancouver.
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I had no idea. This was done in secret. I and others in Bellingham would have been there a few times. Thanks, Stuie.
 
I wanted the Grizz to stay in Vancouver...someone still thinks New Orleans and Tennessee are in the west....they must have history books printed in 1700...I
can' t believe jlprk isn't lobbying for the Stampede to reinvent themselves just outside Bellingham....that's a dream come true!
 
riverman said:
They don't have the fanbase to support an NBA team...would be better to have a D league affiliate in Vancouver
Click to expand...

I disagree one million percent. Given how truly awful and unwatchable that team was, the people of Vancouver gave them much more support than they deserved. For the first four years, they were between 15th - and 20th in average home attendance, usually hovering right around, or just below league average, and MUCH higher than several teams with much better records. It wasn't until the 5th season, when word started to spread the team was moving, that attendance dropped below 2oth in the league.

For example, look at their second season attendance figures, compared to their won-loss record and a few of the teams that drew fewer fans in spite of having much better records.

1996-97: League Average Attendance = 685,905 = 16,729 per game

Vancouver Grizzlies:
Won-Loss Record = 14-68
Attendance = 683,442 = 16,669
Rank = 17

Houston Rockets:
Won-Loss Record = 57-25
Attendance = 667,685 = 16,285
Rank = 19

Golden State Warriors:
Won-Loss Record = 30-52
Attendance = 621,844 = 15,166
Rank = 23

Miami Heat:
Won-Loss Record = 61-21
Attendance = 667,685 = 15,004
Rank = 25

Atlanta Hawks:
Won-Loss Record = 56-26
Attendance = 549,414 = 13,400
Rank = 27

Denver Nuggets:
Won-Loss Record = 21-61
Attendance = 340,486 = 8,305
Rank = 28

Los Angeles Clippers:
Won-Loss Record = 36-46
Attendance = 232,895 = 5,680
Rank = 29

The Grizzlies, in spite of having the worst record in the league for the 2nd year in a row, drew bigger crowds than the 3rd seed (Houston) in the West and the 2nd (Miami) and 4th seeds (Atlanta) in the East. They drew over twice as many fans as the Denver Nuggets and nearly 3x as many fans as the Los Angeles Clippers - who actually made the playoffs that year!

I included the Warriors in this list to make a point. You ALWAYS hear what GREAT fans the Warriors have, and how they have always stuck by their team win or lose. Bullshit. Every year the Grizzlies were in Vancouver they drew bigger crowds than the Warriors, in spite of usually having a worse record.

Even after attendance nose dived the last two seasons with rumors of the team moving, they still drew more fans their final two years in Vancouver than they did their first two years in Memphis.

The entire time the Grizzlies were in Vancouver, they were constantly out drawing teams like Atlanta, Miami, Houston and Indiana, teams that actually had great records and were constantly in the playoffs. And, of course, they also constantly out drew other bad teams like the Clippers, Nuggets and Warriors. They had the league's worst combined record over those six seasons they were in Vancouver, yet managed to hover right around, or slightly below, league average attendance figures. Yet, you never heard rumors Atlanta, Miami, Indiana, Houston, Denver, Golden State or even the Clippers moving. That team, that city, and those fans deserved more of a chance.

I think the disparity in taxation had a lot more do to with the demise of that team than the perceived lack of fan support. I've felt for years the NBA salaries should be tax protected, or normalized in some way, to eliminate lower (or no) local tax rates that favor cities like Houston and Miami. Large markets like LA and New York already have an unfair advantage due to larger endorsement potential. Players should not be further penalized by playing in a city with higher state income tax. I'm surprised this hasn't found it's way into the CBA at some point. I think the majority of the owners would favor it as it seems like there are only a handful of teams that are actual players for the best free agents every summer. Level the playing field so players are not financially penalized by choosing one location over another would seem to benefit a lot more teams than it would hurt.

BNM



 
Boob-No-More said:
For the first four years, they were between 15th - and 20th in average home attendance, usually hovering right around, or just below league average, and MUCH higher than several teams with much better records. It wasn't until the 5th season, when word started to spread the team was moving, that attendance dropped below 20th in the league...Even after attendance nose dived the last two seasons with rumors of the team moving, they still drew more fans their final two years in Vancouver than they did their first two years in Memphis.
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Fans of other teams use attendance stats from the franchise's last year, and generalize to earlier years, to blame Grizzlie and Sonic fans for lack of support. But support broke down only in the last months of the last season, after it became obvious the cities were being dumped. In both cases, the owners bought the teams after promising they wouldn't move, immediately switched to an open mind, then supposedly changed their minds within months.

Boob-No-More said:
I think the disparity in taxation had a lot more do to with the demise of that team than the perceived lack of fan support. I've felt for years the NBA salaries should be tax protected, or normalized in some way...Level the playing field so players are not financially penalized by choosing one location over another would seem to benefit a lot more teams than it would hurt.
Click to expand...

You blame taxation of players, but they had no say in moving the Grizzlies. Blame taxation of the owner. The new owner was American, so he had to pay extra income tax, to both countries. It's American law. Stern should have found Canadian owners. Strange how Stern's name keeps popping up, almost as if he was a total incompetent.

As for income sharing, the media mentions it at the start of every CBA negotiation, and the League poo-poos the idea, since it mainly represents the owners of the biggest cities. A little socialism would sure strengthen the league.
 
Boob-No-More said:
I disagree one million percent. Given how truly awful and unwatchable that team was, the people of Vancouver gave them much more support than they deserved. For the first four years, they were between 15th - and 20th in average home attendance, usually hovering right around, or just below league average, and MUCH higher than several teams with much better records. It wasn't until the 5th season, when word started to spread the team was moving, that attendance dropped below 2oth in the league.

For example, look at their second season attendance figures, compared to their won-loss record and a few of the teams that drew fewer fans in spite of having much better records.

1996-97: League Average Attendance = 685,905 = 16,729 per game

Vancouver Grizzlies:
Won-Loss Record = 14-68
Attendance = 683,442 = 16,669
Rank = 17

Houston Rockets:
Won-Loss Record = 57-25
Attendance = 667,685 = 16,285
Rank = 19

Golden State Warriors:
Won-Loss Record = 30-52
Attendance = 621,844 = 15,166
Rank = 23

Miami Heat:
Won-Loss Record = 61-21
Attendance = 667,685 = 15,004
Rank = 25

Atlanta Hawks:
Won-Loss Record = 56-26
Attendance = 549,414 = 13,400
Rank = 27

Denver Nuggets:
Won-Loss Record = 21-61
Attendance = 340,486 = 8,305
Rank = 28

Los Angeles Clippers:
Won-Loss Record = 36-46
Attendance = 232,895 = 5,680
Rank = 29

The Grizzlies, in spite of having the worst record in the league for the 2nd year in a row, drew bigger crowds than the 3rd seed (Houston) in the West and the 2nd (Miami) and 4th seeds (Atlanta) in the East. They drew over twice as many fans as the Denver Nuggets and nearly 3x as many fans as the Los Angeles Clippers - who actually made the playoffs that year!

I included the Warriors in this list to make a point. You ALWAYS hear what GREAT fans the Warriors have, and how they have always stuck by their team win or lose. Bullshit. Every year the Grizzlies were in Vancouver they drew bigger crowds than the Warriors, in spite of usually having a worse record.

Even after attendance nose dived the last two seasons with rumors of the team moving, they still drew more fans their final two years in Vancouver than they did their first two years in Memphis.

The entire time the Grizzlies were in Vancouver, they were constantly out drawing teams like Atlanta, Miami, Houston and Indiana, teams that actually had great records and were constantly in the playoffs. And, of course, they also constantly out drew other bad teams like the Clippers, Nuggets and Warriors. They had the league's worst combined record over those six seasons they were in Vancouver, yet managed to hover right around, or slightly below, league average attendance figures. Yet, you never heard rumors Atlanta, Miami, Indiana, Houston, Denver, Golden State or even the Clippers moving. That team, that city, and those fans deserved more of a chance.

I think the disparity in taxation had a lot more do to with the demise of that team than the perceived lack of fan support. I've felt for years the NBA salaries should be tax protected, or normalized in some way, to eliminate lower (or no) local tax rates that favor cities like Houston and Miami. Large markets like LA and New York already have an unfair advantage due to larger endorsement potential. Players should not be further penalized by playing in a city with higher state income tax. I'm surprised this hasn't found it's way into the CBA at some point. I think the majority of the owners would favor it as it seems like there are only a handful of teams that are actual players for the best free agents every summer. Level the playing field so players are not financially penalized by choosing one location over another would seem to benefit a lot more teams than it would hurt.

BNM
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I have never lived there or been to a Vancouver Grizzlies game....the stats surprise me but all the cities you mentioned are football or baseball cities...all my Canadian friends over the years watched rugby more than basketball and were hockey fanatics...and if it was so popular...why didn't it grow? Why didn't Steve Francis want to play there? I think the city is great and enjoy visiting there but in my view...it's a minor league market and their loss of the franchise with no other Canadian competition to acquire them says something. They moved to Memphis but not Calgary or Winnepeg...I still maintain Canada is hockey crazed
 
Boob-No-More said:
I disagree one million percent. Given how truly awful and unwatchable that team was, the people of Vancouver gave them much more support than they deserved. For the first four years, they were between 15th - and 20th in average home attendance, usually hovering right around, or just below league average, and MUCH higher than several teams with much better records. It wasn't until the 5th season, when word started to spread the team was moving, that attendance dropped below 2oth in the league.

For example, look at their second season attendance figures, compared to their won-loss record and a few of the teams that drew fewer fans in spite of having much better records.

1996-97: League Average Attendance = 685,905 = 16,729 per game

Vancouver Grizzlies:
Won-Loss Record = 14-68
Attendance = 683,442 = 16,669
Rank = 17

Houston Rockets:
Won-Loss Record = 57-25
Attendance = 667,685 = 16,285
Rank = 19

Golden State Warriors:
Won-Loss Record = 30-52
Attendance = 621,844 = 15,166
Rank = 23

Miami Heat:
Won-Loss Record = 61-21
Attendance = 667,685 = 15,004
Rank = 25

Atlanta Hawks:
Won-Loss Record = 56-26
Attendance = 549,414 = 13,400
Rank = 27

Denver Nuggets:
Won-Loss Record = 21-61
Attendance = 340,486 = 8,305
Rank = 28

Los Angeles Clippers:
Won-Loss Record = 36-46
Attendance = 232,895 = 5,680
Rank = 29

The Grizzlies, in spite of having the worst record in the league for the 2nd year in a row, drew bigger crowds than the 3rd seed (Houston) in the West and the 2nd (Miami) and 4th seeds (Atlanta) in the East. They drew over twice as many fans as the Denver Nuggets and nearly 3x as many fans as the Los Angeles Clippers - who actually made the playoffs that year!

I included the Warriors in this list to make a point. You ALWAYS hear what GREAT fans the Warriors have, and how they have always stuck by their team win or lose. Bullshit. Every year the Grizzlies were in Vancouver they drew bigger crowds than the Warriors, in spite of usually having a worse record.

Even after attendance nose dived the last two seasons with rumors of the team moving, they still drew more fans their final two years in Vancouver than they did their first two years in Memphis.

The entire time the Grizzlies were in Vancouver, they were constantly out drawing teams like Atlanta, Miami, Houston and Indiana, teams that actually had great records and were constantly in the playoffs. And, of course, they also constantly out drew other bad teams like the Clippers, Nuggets and Warriors. They had the league's worst combined record over those six seasons they were in Vancouver, yet managed to hover right around, or slightly below, league average attendance figures. Yet, you never heard rumors Atlanta, Miami, Indiana, Houston, Denver, Golden State or even the Clippers moving. That team, that city, and those fans deserved more of a chance.

I think the disparity in taxation had a lot more do to with the demise of that team than the perceived lack of fan support. I've felt for years the NBA salaries should be tax protected, or normalized in some way, to eliminate lower (or no) local tax rates that favor cities like Houston and Miami. Large markets like LA and New York already have an unfair advantage due to larger endorsement potential. Players should not be further penalized by playing in a city with higher state income tax. I'm surprised this hasn't found it's way into the CBA at some point. I think the majority of the owners would favor it as it seems like there are only a handful of teams that are actual players for the best free agents every summer. Level the playing field so players are not financially penalized by choosing one location over another would seem to benefit a lot more teams than it would hurt.

BNM
Click to expand...
The Clippers survived horrible ownership in a big market with lousy players and a cheap owner for a long time...the Grizzlies market wouldn't sustain that
 
riverman said:
They don't have the fanbase to support an NBA team...would be better to have a D league affiliate in Vancouver
Click to expand...

Vancouver's metropolitan population is at least equal to Portland's. Vancouver's #1 sport is hockey. But it was learning basketball, and the crowds were surprisingly big for a city that considered it a women's sport till the Grizzlies arrived.

And Steve Francis was a young punk who couldn't leave his mom. (Bibby cried at the draft when the Grizzlies picked him because Houston, I think was the team, had promised to pick him and then passed him over. Why do teams make such promises? Rashard Lewis cried at the draft when the Sonics picked him. I think that was Houston, and Bibby was the Clippers or something.)
 
If they moved back to Vancouver, I'd like it...less travel for the Blazers
 
Boob-No-More said:
VAN had Bryant Reeves - Half Man, Half Tree Sloth.
Click to expand...

KingAlbertoJrSpeed said:
No marketable star? What about Big Country?
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
riverman said:
I have never lived there or been to a Vancouver Grizzlies game....the stats surprise me but all the cities you mentioned are football or baseball cities...all my Canadian friends over the years watched rugby more than basketball and were hockey fanatics...and if it was so popular...why didn't it grow? Why didn't Steve Francis want to play there? I think the city is great and enjoy visiting there but in my view...it's a minor league market and their loss of the franchise with no other Canadian competition to acquire them says something. They moved to Memphis but not Calgary or Winnepeg...I still maintain Canada is hockey crazed
Click to expand...

Yeah, the stats are misleading in this case. Attendance figures don't accurately reflect the general interest. It's a big city with lots of disposable income. Events fill up just as something to do.
 
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