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barfo

triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac
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Gentlemen, start your bitter recriminations!

This piece is from David Frum, a former Bush speechwriter.

Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:

(1) It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs.

(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.

So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson:

A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.

Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clinton’s 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

barfo
 
Democrats fully own this one. They destroyed the economy while in control of the House and Senate, but that's short lived come November.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/20/AR2010032003349_pf.html

But there is a major difference between this health-care battle and the debates that preceded passage of Social Security and Medicare. Although there was opposition to those measures -- conservative opponents called Medicare socialized medicine -- in the end they passed with overwhelming, bipartisan majorities.

The House approved the Medicare bill on a vote of 313 to 115, including 65 Republicans -- nearly half the GOP caucus at the time. The Senate approved the measure by 68 to 21, including 13 of the 27 Republicans.

Social Security passed the House in 1935 by 372 to 77. On that vote, 77 Republicans joined the majority and 18 Republicans opposed it. In the Senate, the vote was 77 to 6, with five of 19 Republicans in opposition.
 
Democrats fully own this one.

Yes, they do.

They destroyed the economy while in control of the House and Senate, but that's short lived come November.

That sentence doesn't even make sense.

But there is a major difference between this health-care battle and the debates that preceded passage of Social Security and Medicare. Although there was opposition to those measures -- conservative opponents called Medicare socialized medicine -- in the end they passed with overwhelming, bipartisan majorities.

The House approved the Medicare bill on a vote of 313 to 115, including 65 Republicans -- nearly half the GOP caucus at the time. The Senate approved the measure by 68 to 21, including 13 of the 27 Republicans.

Social Security passed the House in 1935 by 372 to 77. On that vote, 77 Republicans joined the majority and 18 Republicans opposed it. In the Senate, the vote was 77 to 6, with five of 19 Republicans in opposition.

Republicans were smarter in the past.

Like Frum says, Republicans decided to try to nuke it instead of compromise. Too bad for them, they failed.

Would you like to quote the gallup poll of Obama's job approval for today?

barfo
 
Wait a second, Bush had speech writers?


That was really good , thanks for posting it.
 
What is this deal about "reconcillation". Seems kind of shady and just a way to pass for the sake of passing.
 
Yes, they do.



That sentence doesn't even make sense.



Republicans were smarter in the past.

Like Frum says, Republicans decided to try to nuke it instead of compromise. Too bad for them, they failed.

Would you like to quote the gallup poll of Obama's job approval for today?

barfo

You don't understand my sentence? Re-read it. Democrats controlled the house and senate since 2006. The economy tanked on their watch, and got worse the whole time. Make sense now? They own that, too.

Why don't we both watch Obama's numbers tank by the time he's not reelected?

Unless the republicans save his presidency after the November elections.

I happen to think this will be one of the final nails in the coffin of the nation, literally. We're staring bankruptcy in the face, and it's not long from now. Rejoice, you got your wish.
 
Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government.

They destroyed the economy while in control of the House and Senate,

:ohno::ohno::ohno:
 
Democrats controlled the house and senate since 2006. The economy tanked on their watch, and got worse the whole time.

Whew, thanks for clearing that up for us. All the problems with the economy are the Democrats fault. Yes, lets not take a look at what really went wrong and try and learn from our mistakes when it's easier just to blame a political party.
 
This would be my campaign ad in November:

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cach...ocrats+economy+2006&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

(Posted in 2006, and quite prophetic)

Since 2003, when the Bush tax cuts went into effect, the economy’s growth rate has been better than the average of the 1980s and 1990s.

The current economic growth rate for 2006 is 3.5%

The average economic growth rate for the 1990s under Clinton was 3.3% and this was during the irrational exuberance of the dotcom bubble.

The average economic growth rate for 1980s was 3.1%

If the Democrats take control and eliminate the Bush tax cuts and raise taxes, economists predict this will slow the growth rate for the economy.

Here's another "story" the Democrats are telling.

Democrats say that the Bush tax cuts reduced federal tax revenue and they will eliminate the Bush tax cuts and increase taxes to increase federal revenue.

The truth...

For fiscal year 2006, federal revenue as a share of Gross Domestic Product was 18.4%.

The post 1962 average for federal revenue was 18.2% of Gross Domestic Product.

The federal budget deficit for 2006 was $247.7 billion.

This represents 1.9% of the Gross Domestic Product which was 13.1 trillion dollars.

That is below the average for the 1970s, 1980s, and the 1990s.
The deficit as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product for 2006 was 1.9%

The deficit as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product for the 1990s was 2.2%

The deficit as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product for the 1980s was 3.0%

The deficit as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product for the 1970s was 2.1%

Economists state that Democratic tax increases will reduce federal revenue and increase the deficit as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product.

In addition, the Democrats don't want you to know that the current unemployment rate which is 4.6% is lower than the average for the 1990s which was 5.8% and lower than the average for the past 40 years at 6.0%.


Real After-Tax Income Has Risen 15.0 Percent Since January 2001.

Real after-tax income per person has risen by 9 percent since January 2001.

The US homeownership rate reached a record 69.2 percent in the second quarter of 2004. The number of homeowners in the United States reached 73.4 million, the most ever. And for the first time, the majority of minority Americans owns their own homes.
 
You don't understand my sentence? Re-read it. Democrats controlled the house and senate since 2006. The economy tanked on their watch, and got worse the whole time. Make sense now? They own that, too.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were trying to say something about the healthcare bill. I now see that you were hoping to change the subject. My bad.

Why don't we both watch Obama's numbers tank by the time he's not reelected?

So you aren't going to post today's numbers? Why not? You thought they were so very important yesterday.

Unless the republicans save his presidency after the November elections.

Frum and I think they've already done that.

I happen to think this will be one of the final nails in the coffin of the nation, literally.

Literally literally? Or figuratively literally?

barfo
 
Oh, sorry. I thought you were trying to say something about the healthcare bill. I now see that you were hoping to change the subject. My bad.



So you aren't going to post today's numbers? Why not? You thought they were so very important yesterday.



Frum and I think they've already done that.



Literally literally? Or figuratively literally?

barfo

I'm not changing the discussion from health care, just pointing out that there's no free lunch. On top of numerous disastrous policies, this one is the literal nail in the coffin.

Rejoice, you got your wish.
 
Obama got a 3.5 point bounce from 47-47 to 50-43, according to Gallup. Short lived is my prediction.
 
2 point bounce in the Rasmussen poll, from 43% to 45% (54% disapprove)
 
You know what this country needs? More government. Maybe I could pay the government to come wipe my ass after I take a dump. Maybe I could pay them to clip my toenails. How about go grocery shopping for me? Actually I would really like the government to clean my house. I'm lazy. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson are rolling over in their graves... but Alexander Hamilton is fucking ecstatic!
 
You know what this country needs? More government. Maybe I could pay the government to come wipe my ass after I take a dump.

We all knew this would happen sooner or later after those damn Democrats rammed socialized sewers and waste disposal down our throats. Why must the government feel the need to tell me where I can or can't flush a turd?
 
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We all knew this would happen sooner or later after those damn Democrats rammed socialized sewers and waste disposal down our throats. Why most the government feel the need to tell me where I can or can't flush a turd?

Have you ever worked in government Sly? Ever been around it for any considerable time? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
 
Have you ever worked in government Sly? Ever been around it for any considerable time? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

Me, no. Members of my family have served with honor. My father came to the country (legally) and immediately join the US Air Force and became a citizen. After putting himself through college he went on to become a vice president of US Bank which he eventually left to become the Portland branch chief of Housing and Urban Development. After retiring from HUD he became head of the ESL program for the Reynolds school district.

Now let me ask you this, when you make a post about wanting government to wipe your ass did you really expect serious replies? Would it have been better if I had just asked if you were talking out of the ass you wanted the government to wipe instead?
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html?ref=opinion

The Real Arithmetic of Health Care Reform

By DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN
Arlington, Va.

ON Thursday, the Congressional Budget Office reported that, if enacted, the latest health care reform legislation would, over the next 10 years, cost about $950 billion, but because it would raise some revenues and lower some costs, it would also lower federal deficits by $138 billion. In other words, a bill that would set up two new entitlement spending programs — health insurance subsidies and long-term health care benefits — would actually improve the nation’s bottom line.

Could this really be true? How can the budget office give a green light to a bill that commits the federal government to spending nearly $1 trillion more over the next 10 years?

The answer, unfortunately, is that the budget office is required to take written legislation at face value and not second-guess the plausibility of what it is handed. So fantasy in, fantasy out.

In reality, if you strip out all the gimmicks and budgetary games and rework the calculus, a wholly different picture emerges: The health care reform legislation would raise, not lower, federal deficits, by $562 billion.

Gimmick No. 1 is the way the bill front-loads revenues and backloads spending. That is, the taxes and fees it calls for are set to begin immediately, but its new subsidies would be deferred so that the first 10 years of revenue would be used to pay for only 6 years of spending.

Even worse, some costs are left out entirely. To operate the new programs over the first 10 years, future Congresses would need to vote for $114 billion in additional annual spending. But this so-called discretionary spending is excluded from the Congressional Budget Office’s tabulation.

Consider, too, the fate of the $70 billion in premiums expected to be raised in the first 10 years for the legislation’s new long-term health care insurance program. This money is counted as deficit reduction, but the benefits it is intended to finance are assumed not to materialize in the first 10 years, so they appear nowhere in the cost of the legislation.

Another vivid example of how the legislation manipulates revenues is the provision to have corporations deposit $8 billion in higher estimated tax payments in 2014, thereby meeting fiscal targets for the first five years. But since the corporations’ actual taxes would be unchanged, the money would need to be refunded the next year. The net effect is simply to shift dollars from 2015 to 2014.

In addition to this accounting sleight of hand, the legislation would blithely rob Peter to pay Paul. For example, it would use $53 billion in anticipated higher Social Security taxes to offset health care spending. Social Security revenues are expected to rise as employers shift from paying for health insurance to paying higher wages. But if workers have higher wages, they will also qualify for increased Social Security benefits when they retire. So the extra money raised from payroll taxes is already spoken for. (Indeed, it is unlikely to be enough to keep Social Security solvent.) It cannot be used for lowering the deficit.

A government takeover of all federally financed student loans — which obviously has nothing to do with health care — is rolled into the bill because it is expected to generate $19 billion in deficit reduction.

Finally, in perhaps the most amazing bit of unrealistic accounting, the legislation proposes to trim $463 billion from Medicare spending and use it to finance insurance subsidies. But Medicare is already bleeding red ink, and the health care bill has no reforms that would enable the program to operate more cheaply in the future. Instead, Congress is likely to continue to regularly override scheduled cuts in payments to Medicare doctors and other providers.

Removing the unrealistic annual Medicare savings ($463 billion) and the stolen annual revenues from Social Security and long-term care insurance ($123 billion), and adding in the annual spending that so far is not accounted for ($114 billion) quickly generates additional deficits of $562 billion in the first 10 years. And the nation would be on the hook for two more entitlement programs rapidly expanding as far as the eye can see.

The bottom line is that Congress would spend a lot more; steal funds from education, Social Security and long-term care to cover the gap; and promise that future Congresses will make up for it by taxing more and spending less.

The stakes could not be higher. As documented in another recent budget office analysis, the federal deficit is already expected to exceed at least $700 billion every year over the next decade, doubling the national debt to more than $20 trillion. By 2020, the federal deficit — the amount the government must borrow to meet its expenses — is projected to be $1.2 trillion, $900 billion of which represents interest on previous debt.

The health care legislation would only increase this crushing debt. It is a clear indication that Congress does not realize the urgency of putting America’s fiscal house in order.

Douglas Holtz-Eakin, who was the director of the Congressional Budget Office from 2003 to 2005, is the president of the American Action Forum, a policy institute.
 
I see this as nothing monumental or effective in either way.

Certainly not worthy of the term "reform". It pretty much delays reform for another decade.

The Democrats pass an impotent bill that provides roughly 5% of what they promised and campaigned on, and the Republicans take the stubborn, spoiled brat approach and prove again they are incapable of leadership.

Both parties lost and more people will vote for the person rather than the party in the future.
 
Me, no. Members of my family have served with honor. My father came to the country (legally) and immediately join the US Air Force and became a citizen. After putting himself through college he went on to become a vice president of US Bank which he eventually left to become the Portland branch chief of Housing and Urban Development. After retiring from HUD he became head of the ESL program for the Reynolds school district.

Now let me ask you this, when you make a post about wanting government to wipe your ass did you really expect serious replies? Would it have been better if I had just asked if you were talking out of the ass you wanted the government to wipe instead?

Greatest. Reply. Ever.
 
My uncle runs the computer system for medicare. Last time we talked about it, he told me there were about 800M claims a year (almost 3 for every man, woman, and child in the country). I think he could find a job elsewhere, with his skills.

My cousin was Clinton's attorney, advisor, and on the short list to be Secy. of State. He also was attorney for Dukakis and Mondale before that. Basically what John Dean was to Nixon. He died in 1996 at the age of 47. I think he was a traitor (literally, Barfo), for things he did as a vietnam war protester. Many vietnam vets feel the same way. Loved him anyway, like a big brother.
 
Me, no. Members of my family have served with honor. My father came to the country (legally) and immediately join the US Air Force and became a citizen. After putting himself through college he went on to become a vice president of US Bank which he eventually left to become the Portland branch chief of Housing and Urban Development. After retiring from HUD he became head of the ESL program for the Reynolds school district.

Now let me ask you this, when you make a post about wanting government to wipe your ass did you really expect serious replies? Would it have been better if I had just asked if you were talking out of the ass you wanted the government to wipe instead?

This isn't about measuring one's penis here. My grandfather flew planes for the Navy during WWII. My other grandfather protected the Oregon coast with the Coast Guard during the same campaign. This isn't about who in our family's did what and for how long. I was merely asking if you, personally, have firsthand knowledge of the government and how it works?

I worked in the Portland Office of Emergency Management for six months. I am a member of government organizations like the Neighborhood Emergency Team and Civil Air Patrol. I have done work with the Oregon National Guard. I have been around government quite a bit, and let me tell you, government doesn't know its head from its ass. It is one of the most poorly run organizations in existence. They spend money frivolously. They are inefficient. This isn't just on a state level, but a federal one as well.

My point is, we are putting a lot of power in the hands of our government, now more so than ever before. The intention of my original post was that we might as well just put our lives in the hands of the government completely, with the way we're going. But you might not want what you wish for. I can't think of a single government program that is run efficiently. I can't think of a single government program that can sustain itself.

We want to hand health care to the government, and I can't think of a bigger mistake. It will be run inefficiently. It will be poor quality. There will be long waiting lists. They won't have the best equipment or doctors. They won't be able to get rid of bad employees because of the unions. Basically, it will be like the Portland school district. It will be run by unions. They will have amazing benefits though.
 
wait, is there going to be "government healthcare"?
 
This isn't about measuring one's penis here. I was merely asking if you, personally, have firsthand knowledge of the government and how it works?

No, that's not what you asked. This is.

Have you ever worked in government Sly? Ever been around it for any considerable time? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

You asked me a question and I gave you an answer. I'm not showing you my penis, asking you to show me yours and I really don't care about the size of it. I gave you, I feel, an appropriate answer for what you asked.

You want to have an open and honest discussion about the many things that are wrong with this country and our government I'm for that. I've been a moderate Republican for most of my life. There are many things about government that I'm not pleased with. But it seems like you keep wanting to take things to an extreme to prove your point. You post you want the government to wipe your ass I respond by making a very dumb joke about socialized sewers. That pisses you off, you get upset and ask somewhat of a rudely phrased question. I respond by giving you an answer and using 1 family member as basis for that reply. You dismiss my reply but then give 2 of your own family members history in response. I just don't get the feeling that you want to have any sort of discussion. An argument sure, but not a discussion.
 
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Elections have consequences. Senator Obama ran as a moderate, and people believed him. The Republicans didn't put up much opposition. For those of us who knew him as an Illinois State Senator, his positions and policies are no surprise.

David Frum, however, is dead wrong about the Republicans being the ones who didn't want to work with the Democrats. I can remember Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins going out of their way to work on this bill. They were shut out of the process. From March, 2009 until February, 2010 there was no bi-partisan meeting with the President or the Leadership to discuss health care. Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid could have easily made this a bi-partisan bill; it was their choice to make it rigidly ideological.

My fear, is that we change to a de-facto parlimentary system where both sides pursue fringe legislation on the basis of 50% +1. Megan McArdle, however, says it better than I could: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/the-future-after-health-care/37799/

Congratulations to the Democrats; this bill has been the dream of the far left for decades. I'm reminded of the ancient Chinese curse: May you get what you wish for.
 
what's the deal with this bill? I stopped paying attention a few months ago.
 

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