Fuck David Thorpe!

[Rastapopoulos]

Here's what David Thorpe said to Henry Abbott:

So considering that Oden is yet again hurt, and he is so after just one quarter of his first game, I'm left to feel that this will be normal for the rest of his career.

You know I'm a very "glass is half full" guy, and I think the planet (and the basketball world) is much better off having Greg Oden realize his star potential. He's the kind of person I want my son to emulate one day. Humble and honest, smart and hard working.

But to think that after he recovers from this injury he'll likely be mostly injury free for a number of years flies in the face of all my basketball experiences. Some people have skeletons, or soft tissues, or tendons and ligaments, that are just not meant to take a physical pounding on a daily basis. Oden is very likely one of these guys.

It's apparent to me that he'll never develop into the superstar he was sure to become because he'll never be healthy enough long enough for that to happen. That's horrible for Greg, Blazer fans, and for basketball fans to swallow, but it seems accurate to me.

You know, I've never understood why people like this guy and Chad Thorpe suddenly ascend to the status of Basketball Oracles without actually evey having done anything. And this guy has favorites (often players who've paid him to be their trainer) that he constantly plugs. And up till now he's been saying that Oden will be great. Right up until this week, when Oden sprains his ankle. My question is: did he see the footage of Oden spraining his ankle? Did he see the angle the foot was twisted? If he loved Oden up to this point, but suddenly he's going to be a permanent gimp, what effect was that foot getting bent like that supposed to have? Was Oden supposed somehow to have been unaffected? Only players with "soft tissues that can't take poundings" would be affected? Or was his foot not supposed ever to bend back like that no matter what happens?

I'm not an idiot: it's possible that Oden could be injury prone. But this guy has suddenly switched THIS WEEK to saying this?

My take on Oden is that he could be like Rik Smits, a guy who never did much when he was heavy but became useful when they changed policy and had him go skinny.

(Oh, and anyone hear of Zydrunas Ilgauskas? He had BAD foot issues for his first two seasons, and has been a warhorse ever since. Can't we hope for that?)

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

The path Greg is on he wont be a superstar.

He's on the path of being a 3rd-tier Center.

A bigger Delembert with annual injuries.

 

[DaRizzle]

The path Greg is on he wont be a superstar.

He's on the path of being a 3rd-tier Center.

A bigger Delembert with annual injuries.

wow...right or wrong, its amazing the difference in opinions due to one game and bad ankle sprain

 

[e_blazer]

The path Greg is on he wont be a superstar.

He's on the path of being a 3rd-tier Center.

A bigger Delembert with annual injuries.

I'm bookmarking this post and keeping it for the all-time stupid list.

 

[CelticKing]

If he spends the rest of the season, being injured at times, then we would have to agree that he's injury prone.

But I'll wait myself at least another 30 or so games, to see if he's able to withstand the NBA playing, traveling, etc.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The path Greg is on he wont be a superstar. He's on the path of being a 3rd-tier Center.

What "path" is that? Path to gimpyville? And you've come to this considered opinion because you, like Thorpe, are an expert on "soft tissues"?

A bigger Delembert

Is that a kind of cheese?

 

[Nikolokolus]

Opinions are a lot like assholes, everyone's got one and most of 'em stink. Who gives two shits what David Thorpe, with no medical background thinks? The only way we'll know if he's injury prone or if this is going to be some kind of recurring theme throughout his career is to let it play itself out.

I do think Greg needs to hire a nutritionist and personal trainer that specializes in kinesiology, giving him the best possible chance to make the most of his gifts while maximizing his health.

 

[BalancedMan]

To be honest, I listen up when I hear the name David Thorpe. He works with a ton of players and has a lot of good experience working with them. He's not a talking head journalist. He's a trainer and coach who works with players on a daily basis, making them better. Outside of his man-love for Kevin Martin, I have no problem with Thorpe.


As for the Oden prospectus, just realize that he's a big guy and big guys get hurt. Especially if they're out of shape. Especially when coming down for rebounds (I read an article recently that said most basketball injuries at HS and College level occur with someone coming down for a rebound).

Oh well. Portland still has Roy, Rudy, LA, Outlaw, Webster, Pryz and all the other good talents that can win games. We have KP to get us another center in the case that Oden doesn't work out...which is unlikely. He has talent, it's just a matter of health. Oden is no Kandiman.

 

[e_blazer]

Look, if Oden had just done a Sam Bowie and had his leg break while coming down from a standard rebound, I'd be concerned. Stepping on a player's foot and getting a sprain? Come on. Anybody who's ever played basketball has done that.

In order to make any kind of reasonable assessment of Greg's physical toughness, he has to first get back into NBA shape and play a season of basketball. He's not in game shape and that increases the odds of injury in any sport. It's unfortunate that this happened so early in the season, but anybody making any kind of prediction about his future from this incident needs to pull his pants down to avoid mumbling.

 

[Haakzilla]

I do think Greg needs to hire a nutritionist and personal trainer that specializes in kinesiology, giving him the best possible chance to make the most of his gifts while maximizing his health.

...if he hasn't already be assigned one!!!

 

[Jack RamsaysPants]

I think it's great that getting tonsillitis and a tonsillectomy are now fodder for "Injury Prone" and on top of that the turned ankle in Camp... Yeah those happen to every player and not infrequently.

 

[PapaG]

Look, if Oden had just done a Sam Bowie and had his leg break while coming down from a standard rebound, I'd be concerned. Stepping on a player's foot and getting a sprain? Come on. Anybody who's ever played basketball has done that.

In order to make any kind of reasonable assessment of Greg's physical toughness, he has to first get back into NBA shape and play a season of basketball. He's not in game shape and that increases the odds of injury in any sport. It's unfortunate that this happened so early in the season, but anybody making any kind of prediction about his future from this incident needs to pull his pants down to avoid mumbling.

I don't think he stepped Fisher's foot though. He was off-balance and his ankle just sort of folded.

 

[e_blazer]

I don't think he stepped Fisher's foot though. He was off-balance and his ankle just sort of folded.

Greg initially said it happened when he stepped on Fisher's foot. You're right though that the replay they showed was just when he landed awkwardly. It may be that he did step on Fisher's foot in a previous play and partially rolled it and that the other play just finished the job. Either way...

IT'S A FREAKIN' SPRAIN, PEOPLE!

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I think it's great that getting tonsillitis and a tonsillectomy are now fodder for "Injury Prone" and on top of that the turned ankle in Camp... Yeah those happen to every player and not infrequently.

Right! Not to mention the hand injury in College. Was that because he was doing handstands and his fragile bones just shattered under the bulk? Or is a hand injury really no indication of not being cut out for basketball?

And finally, even the microfracture surgery was surgery that wouldn't've been done on a knee that looked like that ten years ago, and he wouldn't've missed a year.

And how about this: Thorpe said that he couldn't think of players who'd missed the beginning of three seasons in a row. What about Grant Hill? Was he injury prone? Not until he was about, what, 27. So what was he before then? Did he have latent weaknesses just supressed, but always ready to show? And what about since then - he's been okay for two straight seasons.

I think Thorpe is just being irresponsible speculating like this. Or maybe I should blame Henry Abbott, because maybe Thorpe just meant it as a private discussion.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

It's fair to at least question that Oden's ceiling is considerably lower with his chronic injury problems.

As of today when you see Greg and all his health problems he just screams Ralph Sampson or Sam Bowie.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

[video=youtube;ePqsNRg6o9Y]

1:20.

Greg is gathering the rebound and his right foot comes down on Derek Fisher's left foot and starts the roll. Fisher is in the process of moving when this happens, so his foot slides out from under Greg's and Greg's foot continues the roll.

Landing on Fisher's foot is what started the entire roll.

Edit: My mistake it actually (the start of landing on Fisher's foot) starts at 1:17.

 

[Masbee]

To be honest, I listen up when I hear the name David Thorpe. He works with a ton of players and has a lot of good experience working with them. He's not a talking head journalist. He's a trainer and coach who works with players on a daily basis, making them better.

Right. Essentially he is an expert on this topic with more experience than any 10 of us put together.

We should listen to him. We should take what he says and consider it.

And when he makes general rule of thumb statements ( "Some people have skeletons, or soft tissues, or tendons and ligaments, that are just not meant to take a physical pounding on a daily basis. Oden is very likely one of these guys.") based on his vast experience with how ever many players he has worked with we should take it for what it is:

BULLSHIT

Maybe that statement he made is true. But that statement cannot be proven true with the tiny number of players he has worked with. So his expertise and experience does not qualify him to make that statement with authority. Maybe he thinks he has noticed a "trend" in players he works with and he developed a working theory and feels time has borne him out, AND that he has developed an "eye" for these types and can identify them.

Very unlikely. Much more likely is his sample size is far too small to be of any use and he doesn't realize this AND his cognitive bias causes him to see and remember more vividly that which confirms his theory.

And even if that statement is true generally, his leap to the contention that "Oden is very likely one of these guys" is based on what? This guys population size of personal experience with "soft" ballers is far far too small to be able to be making anything more than a guess. And that would be if he had personally worked with Oden to get an extended and close look at him.

And how does his theory incorporate a guy like Zydrunas Ilgauskas?

Here is my guess:

Oden may be "injury prone" or he may not.

Injuries have derailed a significant minority of quality ballers careers, and the ironmen of the NBA are pointed out because those guys are the freaks - not the ones who regularly get dinged up.

Anybody making pronouncements at this early stage is doing so without substance.

I read that piece on TrueHoop and was disappointed that Henry posted it without calling that guy out. He is welcome to his opinion of course. But to claim that his vast experience gives him predictive powers shows sloppy thinking.

 

[DaRizzle]

Here is my guess:

Oden may be "injury prone" or he may not.

Dropping some bold knowledge on our asses here

 

[Masbee]

Opinions are a lot like assholes, everyone's got one and most of 'em stink. Who gives two shits what David Thorpe, with no medical background thinks? The only way we'll know if he's injury prone or if this is going to be some kind of recurring theme throughout his career is to let it play itself out.

I do think Greg needs to hire a nutritionist and personal trainer that specializes in kinesiology, giving him the best possible chance to make the most of his gifts while maximizing his health.

+1. Last year I advocated the Blazers hiring a chef to cook for Greg when he blogged about what he was eating and I was fairly horrified. I agree that he needs to do something, yoga maybe, to help with his breathing (seems a problem for him) and keep his posture and alignment straight.

 

[Jack RamsaysPants]

It's fair to at least question that Oden's ceiling is considerably lower with his chronic injury problems.

As of today when you see Greg and all his health problems he just screams Ralph Sampson or Sam Bowie.

I s McGrady less talented as a result of being injury prone? Maybe less valuable in trade scenarios, bot not less talented.

 

[Masbee]

Dropping some bold knowledge on our asses here

It's sarcasm.

 

[ucatchtrout]

I guess David Thorpe doesn't read Blazers Edge.

If he did, he'd learn pretty quick the posters over there are better informed than he is.

Trade Oden? A comparison with other centers

Tiny by Blodgett on Oct 30, 2008 2:31 AM PDT

Star-divide

I think some fans are really freaking out about Greg Odens’ foot injury. The real question to ask yourself is: If you think Greg Oden is made of glass and we never should have drafted him, which center would you like instead of him

To better understand the situation I have made a list of every true center in the league. I then tried to research how many times they have been injured in the past.

There are a few things I should make clear about this list. First, I only chose players who averaged at least fifteen minutes playing time last year, or will presumably average that many this year, since that is the minimum that Oden would play on any team in the league. Second, I put the age of the player right after each players name, since if we compare him to other centers we must take into account that he is only twenty. Third, I did my best to find out what injuries players have had and to specify those, if there are no specifics then that means I couldn’t find them. Fourth, I didn’t count any one game or two game injuries (the flu, bruised pinkie, etc), although if there are no specifics for a player then they may be included in the total. Fifth, there are some players which injury history was impossible for me to find, in that case I wrote unknown. Sixth, if I missed a year it is because they had no significant injuries that year.

Let’s begin!

True Centers

Dwight Howard – C (23) Magic

No injuries in 4 seasons

Yao Ming – C (28) Rockets

2007-08 – 27 games with stress fracture in left foot

2006-07 – 32 games with small fracture on his right anterior medial tibial plateau

2005-06 – 21 games with infection in his left big toe, 4 games with broken bone in left foot

Marcus Camby – C (34) Clippers

2006-07 - 12 games to injuries

2005-06 - 26 games to injuries

2004-05 - 16 games to injuries

2003-04 - 8 games to injuries

2002-03 - 38 to hip surgery, 12 to sprained ankle

2001-02 - 14 games to plantar fascitis, 38 games to hip injury

2000-01 - 12 games to hip contusion, sprained ankle, strained left groin

1999-00 - 17 games to sprain of anterior cruciate ligament, 3 games to tendinitis left knee

1997-98 - 6 games to tendinitis in knees, 5 to strained abdominal muscle

1996-97 - 14 games to lower back strain

Brad Miller – C (32) Kings

2007-08 – 10 games with cut hand

2006-07 – 16 games with torn plantar fascia

2004-05 – 26 games with injuries

2003-04 – 10 games with injuries

2002-03 – 9 games with injuries

2001-02 – 5 games with injuries

2000-01 – 25 games with injuries

1998-00 0 Unknown

Shaquille O'Neal – C (36) Suns

2005-06 - 18 games to sprained right ankle

2004-05 - 3 games to sprained left knee, 3 games to stomach virus

2003-04 - 14 games to strained right calf

2002-03 - 12 games to off-season foot surgery, 3 games to sore left knee

2001-02 - 5 games to sore big toe, 5 games to arthritic big toe

2000-01 - 6 games to sprained right foot arch

1997-98 - 21 games to abdominal strain

1996-97 - 28 games to hyperextended left knee

1995-96 - 22 games to fractured right thumb, 4 games to bruised left quads

Samuel Dalembert – C (27) 76ers

2005-06 – 13 games to right quad strain, 3 games to left ankle sprain

2004-05 – 3 games to left hip strain

2003-04 – unknown

2002-03 – 82 games with arthroscopic knee surgery

2001-02 – 16 games to left knee tendinitis, 12 games left knee bursitis

Zydrunas Ilgauskas – C (33) Cavaliers

2007-08 – 7 games to back strain

2006-07 – 3 games to left ankle sprain

2004-05 – 4 games to dislocated finger

2001-02 – 17 games to rehabbing foot

2000-01 – 58 games with foot surgery

1999-00 – 82 games with foot problems

1998-99 – 77 games with foot problems

1995-97 – missed two seasons (164 games) with foot injuries

Mehmet Okur – C (29) Jazz

2007-08 – 12 games with sore Achilles, lower back problems, sprained shoulder

2003-04 – 5 games with back spasms, 6 games with lower back strain

Andrew Bynum – C (21) L@kers

2007-08 – 47 games with knee problems and arthroscopic surgery

Chris Kaman – C (26) Clippers

2007-08 – 26 games with various injuries

2004-05 – 11 games with left ankle sprain

Andrew Bogut – C (24) Bucks

2006-07 – 16 games with left midfoot sprain

Tyson Chandler – C (26) Hornets

2006-07 – 7 games with sore left toe

2003-04 – 43 games with lower back pain

2002-03 – 6 games with esophagitis

2001-02 – 4 games hyperextended pinkie

Marc Gasol – C (23) Grizzlies

No injuries – Rookie

Kendrick Perkins – C (24) Celtics

2007-08 – 4 total games to injuries

2006-07 – 10 total games to injuries

2005-06 – 14 total games to injuries

2003-05 – Unknown

Erick Dampier – C (33) Mavericks

2007-08 – 10 games with injuries

2006-07 – 6 games with injuries

2004-05 – 21 games with stress fracture-right foot

2003-04 – 8 games with sprained left ankle

2001-02 – 9 games with injury

2000-01 – 38 games with left knee injury

1999-00 – 30 games with left knee injury

Andrea Bargnani – C (23) Raptors

2007-08 – 4 games to injury

2006-07 – 17 games to injury

Brendan Haywood – C (29) Wizards *

2008-09 – Would play 15+ minutes if he wasn’t out for 4-6 months with wrist injury

2005-06 – 3 games with back pain

2004-05 – 12 games with injuries

Eddy Curry – C (26) Knicks

2007-08 – 23 games to knee surgery

2005-06 – 10 games to injuries

2004-05 – 3 games to strained left hamstring, 13 games to irregular heartbeat

2003-04 – 7 games to left knee bone bruise

2001-03 – Unknown

Rasho Nestoveric – C (32) Pacers

2007-08 – 6 games with sprained ankle

2004-05 – 12 games with sprained ankle

2002-03 – 5 games with sprained ankle

Brook Lopez – C (20) Nets

Rookie – None

Ben Wallace – C (34) Cavaliers

2007-08 – 5 games with back spasms

Otherwise extremely hardy

Theo Ratliff – C (35) 76ers

So many injuries it’s hard to count! Problems with hips, ankles, and knees. Has missed more than 350 games due to injury.

Marreese Speights – C (21) 76ers

Rookie – None

Nazr Mohammed – C (31) Bobcats

2002-2003 – 47 games with foot fractures and eventual foot surgery

1999-2000 – 22 games with back spasms

Mark Blount – C (33) Heat

Only missed 15 games with injuries in his whole career

Desagana Diop – C (26) Mavericks

2004-05 – 5 games with sprained finger, 5 games with right ankle sprain

2003-04 – 16 games with torn meniscus

Josh Boone – C (24) Nets

2006-07 – Unknown

2007-08 – 12 games, knee and ankle problems

Fabricio Oberto – C (33) Spurs

Never missed a game with injury – 3 seasons

Zaza Pachulia – C (24) Hawks

2007-08 – 20 games with knee injuries

2006-07 – 9 games with various injuries

Tony Battie – C (32) Magic

2007-08 – 82 games with torn rotator cuff

2006-07 – 16 games with various injuries

2003-04 – 6 games with bruised left knee

2001-02 – 6 games with a lower right leg edema

2000-01 – 41 games with sprained ankle

Johan Petro – C (22) Thunder

No injuries in 2 years

Etan Thomas – C (30) Wizards

2007-08 – 82 games with heart surgery

2006-07 – 17 games with injuries

2005-06 – 6 games with injuries

2004-05 – 32 games with abdominal strain

2002-03 – 28 games with fractured orbital bone and a bruised left eye socket

2000-01 – 82 games with toe injury

And Finally

Greg Oden – C (20) Blazers

2008-09 – 2 to 4 weeks with midfoot sprain

2007-08 – 82 games with microfracture

And a broken arm in college that didn’t stop him from playing.

To Conclude

Looking through this list of centers we can see that there is a good reason to take promising centers early in the draft; there just aren’t very many good true centers.

If another GM offered us a trade, Oden for their center straight up, we would only take it in the case of one. I think KP would gladly accept Oden for Dwight Howard straight up. But beside him? Yao Ming is great but is 8 years older and has broken the same foot three times. Anyone over thirty is out of the question. The only one with as much promise is Andrew Bynum, and he had a serious surgery too.

Us Portland fans just need to relax and realize that we are lucky to have such a great center in Oden, and a great backup in Pryzbilla. Compared to what most of the league is starting we have two superior players!

What center would you trade Oden for, straight up? Why?

http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/10/30/649820/trade-oden-a-comparison-wi

 

[ucatchtrout]

Big guys miss more games.

Thats the way it is.

No reason to assume Oden equals Sam Bowie. He has a sprained foot.

 

[THE HCP]

wow...right or wrong, its amazing the difference in opinions due to one game and bad ankle sprain

You know these fools don't speak for me!

 

[oldmangrouch]

There is one part of what Thorpe said that deserves serious consideration: would Greg be better off if he took off some of the weight he added during rehab?

 

[MARIS61]

Never heard of David Thorpe. Seriously.

Must be one of those "lesser known" Oracles.

 

[THE HCP]

Never heard of David Thorpe. Seriously.

Must be one of those "lesser known" Oracles.

I was just thinking the same thing. Who does he write for?

 

[BalancedMan]

I was just thinking the same thing. Who does he write for?

He's not a writer. He's the director of the IMG Academy, and his focus is in basketball. IMG is a premier athletic training outfit. Included in it is the Nick Bollettieri Tennis Academy, which pretty much anyone who has ever been good at tennis has attended. Due to his relationship with players and expertise, Thorpe is a frequent guest on ESPN.

 

[THE HCP]

I've heard of IMG, just not him.

 

[bodyman5001]

There is one part of what Thorpe said that deserves serious consideration: would Greg be better off if he took off some of the weight he added during rehab?

The thing I read said he thought Oden should lose 50+ lbs.