Greg's minutes

[Mediocre Man]

Is there really any excuse not to play Greg Oden at least 25 minutes a night?

Other than fouling out or being so tired he can't get up and down the court he should be on the floor.

He is not going to get better by playing 13 minutes a night. This is an evaluation year according to KP, so evaluate him. It's ridiculous that he isn't playing through foul trouble. Nate needs to adjust around Greg, not the other way around. IMO Nate has proved that his defensive schemes suck ass anyway. Figure it out.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Well, most of the time I don't think there is an excuse. And if he gets fouls we need to let him play through it. But last night, there were better options that gave us the best chance to win, which is why Nate did it. And while I was frustrated with Greg's minutes, I think Nate made the right call.

 

[PapaG]

Is there really any excuse not to play Greg Oden at keast 25 minutes a night?

Other than fouling out or being so tired he can't get up and down the court he should be on the floor.

He is not going to get better by playing 13 minutes a night. This is an evaluation year according to KP, so evaluate him. It's ridiculous that he isn't playing through foul trouble. Nate needs to adjust around Greg, not the other way around. IMO Nate has proved that his defensive schemes suck ass anyway. Figure it out.

That depends on if winning games is the priority or if developing Oden is the priority. Oden was getting abused on the pick and roll last night. If he plays double the minutes, does the team win the game?

If you're fine with potentially taking extra losses by not playing the players who give the best chance to win, then I suppose there isn't an excuse for not playing Oden 25 minutes. If you want the team to make the playoffs, I suppose at this point a case could be made that there is an excuse to not play him 25 minutes in every game.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Well, most of the time I don't think there is an excuse. And if he gets fouls we need to let him play through it. But last night, there were better options that gave us the best chance to win, which is why Nate did it. And while I was frustrated with Greg's minutes, I think Nate made the right call.

I agree that last night the defense Nate had us playing worked better with Aldridge and Outlaw.


I guess my point is that our defense shouldn't be designed so poorly that we can't play our franchise center against most teams because most teams run the pick and roll

 

[PapaG]

I agree that last night the defense Nate had us playing worked better with Aldridge and Outlaw.


I guess my point is that our defense shouldn't be designed so poorly that we can't play our franchise center against most teams because most teams run the pick and roll

Przy handles the pick and roll more than adequately under the same design. I figured this would be yet another thread bashing "McMuffin".

 

[THE HCP]

I think he'll get bunch tomorrow. I don't even know who starts at center for the Bobcats.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Przy handles the pick and roll more than adequately under the same design. I figured this would be yet another thread bashing "McMuffin".

You mean like when Prz screamed at the guards cause he was getting cheap fouls?

Prz handles it better, but it's the scheme as well.

 

[PapaG]

You mean like when Prz screamed at the guards cause he was getting cheap fouls?

Prz handles it better, but it's the scheme as well.

Correct. There is a reason the pick and roll, such a basic play, continues to be a success.

The only way to really stop it is by having solid man-to-man defenders, by doubling the dribbler before the pick is set, or by going zone.

The first is a talent issue, the last two leave glaring weaknesses in the defensive set.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

Yeah you often see Shaq, Hakeem, Tim, Josh, Kareem and so on sitting the second half of games? Great teams know how to use their great centers. Nate has no clue! Championship teams are built around great centers. Nate is building his team around his guard play and whatever falls off the rim Greg or Joel can have. That's why Nate will be gone before this team becomes a contender,why? He doesn't know how to make his center effective!

 

[MrJayremmie]

I agree w/ the inside-out philosophy, but lets be real. Greg is nowhere near a great center right now, and playing to Roy's strengths gives our team the best chance to win. If we had a great center (lets say we had Dwight Howard), i'm pretty confident we'd play around Dwight.

That said, I definitley agree that we should develop Oden much better than we are doing though. Let him play through fouls, give him more touches, STOP SWITCHING ON PICKS, etc... Give Oden the best chance to suceed and develop.

 

[PapaG]

Yeah you often see Shaq, Hakeem, Tim, Josh, Kareem and so on sitting the second half of games? Great teams know how to use their great centers. Nate has no clue! Championship teams are built around great centers. Nate is building his team around his guard play and whatever falls off the rim Greg or Joel can have. That's why Nate will be gone before this team becomes a contender,why? He doesn't know how to make his center effective!

Oden is far from a great center at this point of his career.

 

[hasoos]

I think the coaching staff needs to figure out really quickly that Greg is getting sick of not being involved in any of the offense. At this point I am pretty sure that is the issue.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

If Greg doesn't get better it's such a waste and the play calling is the reason! If I was seeing the ball 3-5 times and I had that size and talent I'd be opting out and heading to Phil or Pop as soon as I could. He's got to learn win or lose! He is the key to our championships!

 

[Ghost Pepper]

As much as I love Roy, LA, Bayless and Rudy they will not bring the rings here without Greg! He is the force that makes their finesse, it's that simple!

 

[BrianFromWA]

I agree w/ the inside-out philosophy, but lets be real. Greg is nowhere near a great center right now, and playing to Roy's strengths gives our team the best chance to win. If we had a great center (lets say we had Dwight Howard), i'm pretty confident we'd play around Dwight.

Funny...Dwight got a consistent 33 mpg as a rookie even though he was shooting worse than Greg, committing 33% more turnovers per game, rebounding at a slightly worse rate, (though Greg fouls more), and through JAN, scoring at a worse rate than Oden.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2384&year=2005
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3225

But amazingly enough, with that consistent 33mpg he averaged 14/12 and 16/10 in Feb and March and went on to become the C we see today. All this with 2 good legs and no "rust".

We have a guy who's out-Howarding Howard's rookie year, and you think he should sit until he gets to superduperstar status?

 

[PapaG]

Funny...Dwight got a consistent 33 mpg as a rookie even though he was shooting worse than Greg, committing 33% more turnovers per game, rebounding at a slightly worse rate, (though Greg fouls more), and through JAN, scoring at a worse rate than Oden.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2384&year=2005
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3225

But amazingly enough, with that consistent 33mpg he averaged 14/12 and 16/10 in Feb and March and went on to become the C we see today. All this with 2 good legs and no "rust".

We have a guy who's out-Howarding Howard's rookie year, and you think he should sit until he gets to superduperstar status?

Orlando won 36 games in Howard's rookie season. I don't think the situations are at all similar. Orlando was in rebuild mode that year, and actually exceeded expectations. Portland is on record saying that not making the play-offs would be a disappointment.

I'm just not in favor of giving players undeserved touches or minutes when there are players on the roster who give you a better shot at winning with the ball in their hands.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Fair enough PapaG. But if you're "developing", "evaluating", whatever...how can you evaluate your team with Oden on the bench? I want to make the playoffs, too, and I don't think playing Oden and making them are mutually exclusive. And who knows? Maybe if he actually played you'd see the progression quicker?

 

[Ghost Pepper]

This philosophy is fucked!! Who gives a donkey nipple if the teams makes the playoffs and we lose a year of Greg becoming the man in process? Greg must not get lost so we can make the playoffs. This time is massively important in his development as a player of impact. 99% of that is letting him play through the learning curve of the NBA! If he ends his first year scoring 8ppg and 8 boards, I for one think his confidence may be permanently screwed! Short term succes VS long term dominace, whay would you pick?

 

[PapaG]

Fair enough PapaG. But if you're "developing", "evaluating", whatever...how can you evaluate your team with Oden on the bench? I want to make the playoffs, too, and I don't think playing Oden and making them are mutually exclusive. And who knows? Maybe if he actually played you'd see the progression quicker?

I want Oden to be a monster in the league. I also think the team is playing very well at this point as it is being coached. It's a tough situation for Nate, I imagine, in potentially trading some Ws in a season where every W will likely be critical in securing a play-off spot.

Tough call, and I don't completely disagree with the camp that wants Oden to be force-fed into being a meaningful player instead of an afterthought.

 

[PapaG]

This philosophy is fucked!! Who gives a donkey nipple if the teams makes the playoffs and we lose a year of Greg becoming the man in process? Greg must not get lost so we can make the playoffs. This time is massively important in his development as a player of impact. 99% of that is letting him play through the learning curve of the NBA! If he ends his first year scoring 8ppg and 8 boards, I for one think his confidence may be permanently screwed! Short term succes VS long term dominace, whay would you pick?

What if that is all he does this year after Nate hypothetically makes him option A on offense? What if he isn't near ready being the primary option and he fails? Would that shatter his confidence? Would that cause Roy or LMA to leave after next season as a FA?

Oden has showed nothing at this point to prove he should suddenly become THE MAN on the roster, and in the media even Greg has agreed with that assessment.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

You don't afterthought once in a decade centers! If Greg was getting 18-20ppgs a game and the offense seemed fluid, no one would care if the Blazers missed the playoffs by three games. Our foundation would be solid for next year. We all know it's the Lakers, Celtics and Cavs this year. So why they are planning for today, I want to have a solid amazing team for two years from now. Greg must be there!

 

[PapaG]

You don't afterthought once in a decade centers! If Greg was getting 18-20ppgs a game and the offense seemed fluid, no one would care if the Blazers missed the playoffs by three games. Our foundation would be solid for next year. We all know it's the Lakers, Celtics and Cavs this year. So why they are planning for today, I want to have a solid amazing team for two years from now. Greg must be there!

Perhaps he's not yet a once-in-a-decade center at this point of his development, and I think the team is doing more than I would at bringing him along. He's starting, isn't he? I mean, you can say he should get more touches, but he can control his rebounding and (somewhat) blocks, and he isn't even doing those consistently against other legitimate centers.

He's getting 25-30 minutes in games he deserves to be getting those minutes, and he is averaging 22.5 for the season despite being in constant foul trouble. I'm not sure what more can be done for him.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

Greg is already getting double and sometimes tripple teams when he gets the ball. He knows how to pass out and that leaves two or three of our guards wide open. The problem is he doesn't get the ball fed to him enough to prove that 10 times a game. So let's say they can only put one guy on him cause our guards are murdering them from the outside? Then he has the ball is the low post so deep there's no way that any one player can guard him.

To me it's all about the entry pass to him to set this whole sequence in motion. That's the problem,our PG's can't get him the freaking ball!

 

[PapaG]

Greg is already getting double and sometimes tripple teams when he gets the ball. He knows how to pass out and that leaves two or three of our guards wide open. The problem is he doesn't get the ball fed to him enough to prove that 10 times a game. So let's say they can only put one guy on him cause our guards are murdering them from the outside? Then he has the ball is the low post so deep there's no way that any one player can guard him.

To me it's all about the entry pass to him to set this whole sequence in motion. That's the problem,our PG's can't get him the freaking ball!

That's one way to look at it. Another is that on most nights, he isn't deserving of the ball. The games where Oden has succeeded on offense, the guards haven't had a problem getting him the ball.

Why force-feed a guy who has proven to be foul-plagued, just for the sake of force-feeding him? If you want to slow down an offense and disrupt rhythm, that's a good way to do it.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Nate is on one heck of a tightrope.

Yes, Oden needs to be developed...but as I said at the begining of the season, you can't let one player hold a franchise hostage. If Oden is handed minutes he hasn't earned, and it costs the team a play-off berth, that could really poison the locker-room.

I don't envy Nate right now!

 

[MrJayremmie]

Funny...Dwight got a consistent 33 mpg as a rookie even though he was shooting worse than Greg, committing 33% more turnovers per game, rebounding at a slightly worse rate, (though Greg fouls more), and through JAN, scoring at a worse rate than Oden.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/player...2384&year=2005
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/player...?playerId=3225

But amazingly enough, with that consistent 33mpg he averaged 14/12 and 16/10 in Feb and March and went on to become the C we see today. All this with 2 good legs and no "rust".

We have a guy who's out-Howarding Howard's rookie year, and you think he should sit until he gets to superduperstar status?

I'm not talking about being a superstar his rookie year. I'm talking about a GREAT center. Greg is not one RIGHT NOW. Howard is RIGHT NOW. I'm saying if we had Howard on our team (the Howard of today), i think Nate would go through him.

And HOLY COW at the last part. When did i say he should sit? Did you read the 2nd part of my post? And the part I said there is no excuse to cut his minutes? I'm just talking about playing the offense through Greg. I think playing through Roy gives us the best chance to win right now... and it does.

Don't be a selective reader man, that is no fun. Your comment had nothing to do with mine. Check out the 2nd post of this thread, and re-read the one you were responding to. I'm one of Greg's biggest fans.

 

[Natebishop3]

I honestly don't think Nate knows how to use Greg. When has Nate ever played with or coached a decent center? When he was in Seattle he played with guys like Jim McIlvaine and Frank Brikowski. When he was coaching the Sonics he had guys like Jerome James. He's used to these scrub centers who couldn't score to save their lives.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

Bingo!!!!! Pop, Phil, Rudy, Pat, Rick are coaches that could be great for Greg. I hate the Lakers but I'd love to see Phil have a year with Greg! For that matter I'd love to see Phil have a few years in Portland with Roy, Rudy, Bayless, LA, Batum and Oden. THis team would be scary!!!!!!

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I honestly don't think Nate knows how to use Greg. When has Nate ever played with or coached a decent center? When he was in Seattle he played with guys like Jim McIlvaine and Frank Brikowski. When he was coaching the Sonics he had guys like Jerome James. He's used to these scrub centers who couldn't score to save their lives.

I have been stressing these same points for a while now. Oden must become a large part of our offense, if this doesn't happen then we don't have any real shot at becoming a championship team in the future. I think Pritchard sees what Nate is turning Oden into. The problem is, our roster is bailing Nate out with poor coaching but fantastic talent. If this continues, Nate will be fired. It's absolutely mind boggling that last game he had 3 shots, and this game he had 2. If your theory was that Greg is just as raw offensively as Mutumbo, and he isn't, Dikembe still got a whole lot of touches on the offensive end compared to Greg Oden. It's sickening and I feel really bad for Greg right now, he should be pissed.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

That is exactly RIGHT!!!! This guy knows he's a star, do we need to lose him to the Lakers or the Celtics so we can see it too? You know if he doesn't live up to his hype here, there is no chance he stays when his contract is up, could ya blame him? Nate will have to go to keep Greg, it's that simple!