How do you use diplomacy with people like this?

[BrianFromWA]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121300133.html

NK has already, in the last 18 months:
1) Fired missiles into the ocean near Japan
2) Torpedoed a South Korean warship and threatened total war if sanctions were increased.
3) Launched artillery attacks on South Korean-held islands

and now is threatening nuclear war if a planned and announced annual exercise occurs. I'd like to hear ideas people have of how they would like their government to handle (or ignore) this.

 

[barfo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121300133.html

NK has already, in the last 18 months:
1) Fired missiles into the ocean near Japan
2) Torpedoed a South Korean warship and threatened total war if sanctions were increased.
3) Launched artillery attacks on South Korean-held islands

and now is threatening nuclear war if a planned and announced annual exercise occurs. I'd like to hear ideas people have of how they would like their government to handle (or ignore) this.

I suggest construction of a large set of fake, but believable and very embarrassing documents focused on the Chinese/NK relationship and give them to WikiLeaks.

barfo

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I called this would happen way back when those two Al Gore documentary employees were bartered for. I speculated it was a "look the other way" type of deal.

 

[MARIS61]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121300133.html

NK has already, in the last 18 months:
1) Fired missiles into the ocean near Japan
2) Torpedoed a South Korean warship and threatened total war if sanctions were increased.
3) Launched artillery attacks on South Korean-held islands

and now is threatening nuclear war if a planned and announced annual exercise occurs. I'd like to hear ideas people have of how they would like their government to handle (or ignore) this.

Since we and Japan and S Korea deliberately provoked most of these defensive reactions in order to make N Korea look like madmen, I guess it's already planned out. I suspect we are planning an all-out invasion.

 

[huevonkiller]

I wouldn't mind if we invaded, it could turn into a useful term paper subject for me.

 

[NJNetz]

Can we nuke them first and fast?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Since we and Japan and S Korea deliberately provoked most of these defensive reactions in order to make N Korea look like madmen, I guess it's already planned out. I suspect we are planning an all-out invasion.

This would be a good point for you to read some history.

For one thing, SCUD missiles aren't defensive missiles.
For another, Japan has no offensive capability (and haven't since 1945). It's mandated by the surrender treaty. Which they've kept, unlike the terms of the cease-fire that NK doesn't seem to want to abide by.
Third, torpedoing a warship in water that doesn't belong to you isn't considered "defensive"
Fourth, I fail to see how bombarding a civilian island that belongs to another sovereign nation can be anything "defensive"
Fifth, you cannot come up with a single "deliberate provocation" that caused the nuclear testing in violation of UN regulations and despite sanctions
Sixth, we don't have the troops if we pulled from the entire military to conduct an "all-out invasion".
At least you agree that their actions are those of madmen. I didn't see a response on what you would do about it (ignore them, I guess?)

Is it your position that we should not conduct multi-national exercises?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

There's only one thing bullies understand.

Force.

That's my solution.

If I were President and NK or Iran... torpedoed one of our ships there'd be repercussions they would regret for many years to come.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

There's only one thing bullies understand.

Force.

That's my solution.

If I were President and NK or Iran... torpedoed one of our ships there'd be repercussions they would regret for many years to come.

Wow, you're so cool.

Good luck taking out all their nuclear silos. If USA were to make a move, it definitely wouldn't be a nuclear bomb. If NK so much as smell a Yank near their border they'll launch their whole arsenal at the US - It would be a cluster fuck.

If there was an all out war I'd enlist in a heartbeat though.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Wow, you're so cool.

Good luck taking out all their nuclear silos. If USA were to make a move, it definitely wouldn't be a nuclear bomb. If NK so much as smell a Yank near their border they'll launch their whole arsenal at the US - It would be a cluster fuck.

If there was an all out war I'd enlist in a heartbeat though.

HAHAHAHA!!

No wonder you cry a lot.

It's a matter of having some balls. We had people like Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein... because people wouldn't stand up to them. When people do, we never hear about them because they go away.

Read your history. Bullies are cowards. Punch them in the nose, they go away. I've lived my life that way and have never seen it any different.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

HAHAHAHA!!

No wonder you cry a lot.

It's a matter of having some balls. We had people like Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein... because people wouldn't stand up to them. When people do, we never hear about them because they go away.

Read your history. Bullies are cowards. Punch them in the nose, they go away. I've lived my life that way and have never seen it any different.

You obviously didn't read my post.

When did I say you shouldn't invade NK with force? I just said that attacking NK would be a bad move no matter what tactic you use.

Oh, I can tell that you're fat and that your favourite food is meatloaf. Damn Septics.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

You obviously didn't read my post.

When did I say you shouldn't invade NK with force? I just said that attacking NK would be a bad move no matter what tactic you use.

Oh, I can tell that you're fat and that your favourite food is meatloaf. Damn Septics.

Rather than responding to your childish and personal insults with the same, let me say that I still would have sunk that sub or at least sank one of theirs (at a minimum). And guess what? It doesn't happen again. When a government shows weakness to an avowed enemy, why should it expect the bully to stop? I think I can guarantee you that NK would not have nuked Sk if it had responded with a bitch slap. NK would have respected it and backed down. Instead, they bombed SK and still SK whimpered away. SK got what they deserved. Disrespect.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

Rather than responding to your childish and personal insults with the same, let me say that I still would have sunk that sub or at least sank one of theirs (at a minimum). And guess what? It doesn't happen again. When a government shows weakness to an avowed enemy, why should it expect the bully to stop? I think I can guarantee you that NK would not have nuked Sk if it had responded with a bitch slap. NK would have respected it and backed down. Instead, they bombed SK and still SK whimpered away. SK got what they deserved. Disrespect.

That's because SK would get absolutely raped. The pay off isn't even worth it. World powers on the other hand...

PS. Does that mean my insults are true?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

That's because SK would get absolutely raped. The pay off isn't even worth it. World powers on the other hand...

PS. Does that mean my insults are true?

Well, we can agree to disagree on SK. I can respect that.

As to your insults, I'm a little above those. Maybe start an insult thread and I'll join in.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

Well, we can agree to disagree on SK. I can respect that.

As to your insults, I'm a little above those. Maybe start an insult thread and I'll join in.

At least you don't bitch about them.

 

[bluefrog]

The key issue is China won't get on board with an invasion. Just last week they sent some delegates to show support to NK.

The other issue is the citizenry is essentially being held hostage. Do we try to minimize civilian casualties or do we just bomb the shit out of the country until they surrender?

One solution would be get as many players in the region to participate in a massive land invasion. South Korea would obviously have to commit. Japan has some offensive capabilities, like fighter jets and tanks. U.S. and Russia could fill in as much as possible. China would possibly tolerate the invasion but they would never participate. A few strategic bombing would disable any nuclear capabilities in the North.

The other option would be taking out the leadership in a bombing campaign like we did in Iraq. We would still need to dispatch thousands of troops to handle the transition. The people might be so brainwashed that we could see an insurgence there too.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Can't we just nuke Ronan?

 

[Denny Crane]

This would be a good point for you to read some history.

For one thing, SCUD missiles aren't defensive missiles.
For another, Japan has no offensive capability (and haven't since 1945). It's mandated by the surrender treaty. Which they've kept, unlike the terms of the cease-fire that NK doesn't seem to want to abide by.
Third, torpedoing a warship in water that doesn't belong to you isn't considered "defensive"
Fourth, I fail to see how bombarding a civilian island that belongs to another sovereign nation can be anything "defensive"
Fifth, you cannot come up with a single "deliberate provocation" that caused the nuclear testing in violation of UN regulations and despite sanctions
Sixth, we don't have the troops if we pulled from the entire military to conduct an "all-out invasion".
At least you agree that their actions are those of madmen. I didn't see a response on what you would do about it (ignore them, I guess?)

Is it your position that we should not conduct multi-national exercises?

We basically have to rely on China to invade from the North. Seoul is so close to the border with NK that it'd be an easy target for lots of short range munitions that NK certainly has. Seoul is the hostage that keeps us from doing anything at all about it.

 

[BrianFromWA]

The thing most people don't (won't?) understand is that if NK has the element of surprise (they have over 1M active troops and almost 10M reserves with military training) they're going to go through SK like crap through a goose. Just like the summer of 1950. Even if we mobilized every soldier, sailor and Marine (active and reserve) and magically transported them to Seoul, we'd be outnumbered 4-to-1. I don't think you could effectively mobilize the South Korean reserve in time to take defensive positions and thwart a surprise assault.

Their nukes can't come close to the US. That's not the issue. It's that they CAN reach South Korea and Japan, and their targeting isn't that great.

It seems the consensus I'm getting is that we should enlist China's help in a full-scale invasion. Why not a strike against political leadership? Does anyone think Kim Jong Il is a nicer (or more sane) guy than Saddam?

 

[barfo]

It seems the consensus I'm getting is that we should enlist China's help in a full-scale invasion. Why not a strike against political leadership? Does anyone think Kim Jong Il is a nicer (or more sane) guy than Saddam?

KJI seems like a signficantly greater threat than Saddam ever could have been. Makes you wonder about our choice of targets, doesn't it?

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

This would be a good point for you to read some history.

For another, Japan has no offensive capability (and haven't since 1945). It's mandated by the surrender treaty. Which they've kept, unlike the terms of the cease-fire that NK doesn't seem to want to abide by.

This would be a good point for you to get up to date. Odd that your employer keeps you in the dark about such public information.

The strength of Japan's armed forces in 2002 was 239,900 active personnel including some 10,400 women. The Ground Self-Defense Force had 148,200 personnel, organized into one armored and 10 infantry divisions. There were also 47,000 personnel in reserve components. The Maritime Self-Defense Force, consisting of 44,400 personnel, had 54 surface combatants, 16 combat submarines, and an air arm of about 80 combat aircraft and 90 armed helicopters. Air Self-Defense Force personnel numbered 45,600 with combat aircraft totaling 280. Japan has a paramilitary coast guard of 12,250 operating 333 patrol vessels.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Asia-and-Oceania/Japan-ARMED-FORCES.html

 

[MARIS61]

There's only one thing bullies understand.

Force.

That's my solution.

If I were President and NK or Iran... torpedoed one of our ships there'd be repercussions they would regret for many years to come.

Outsmarting people is a lot more fun and less painful, but there's a point where you just have to do whatever it takes to ensure you continue.

 

[Sug]

The last thing NK wants is war. There are several factions within NK, and the leadership is currently fractured and in a power struggle. The shelling was actually viewed by many experts as a show of force by the military to the political head of the leadership structure. It was a message that the generals control the fate of the country, not the little man in the funny suit. It would be much better to work with the military to manage a coup against the government. I think we would find a great deal of craving for a more open society, and overall better living conditions for the general population. Think the former Soviet Union. There is a great deal of good inside of NK, but it is being oppressed by a power hungry and ruthless regime.

As for the large military, it is a paper doll military. Built to show strength, but in reality it would fall quickly into disarray. Think Iraq without the insurgent forces. I honestly believe we would be welcomed as liberators in NK, mainly because the people have such a terrible life. The biggest issue with Iraq was that we took a fairly stable country with established infrastructure and totally fucked it up beyond recognition. Even to this day there are basic services like power, water, and transportation that have still yet to be repaired or rebuilt. NK is an opportunity, and if the cards are played right it could become a model for how to change rouge nations into functioning nations.

 

[BrianFromWA]

This would be a good point for you to get up to date. Odd that your employer keeps you in the dark about such public information.

The strength of Japan's armed forces in 2002 was 239,900 active personnel including some 10,400 women. The Ground Self-Defense Force had 148,200 personnel, organized into one armored and 10 infantry divisions. There were also 47,000 personnel in reserve components. The Maritime Self-Defense Force, consisting of 44,400 personnel, had 54 surface combatants, 16 combat submarines, and an air arm of about 80 combat aircraft and 90 armed helicopters. Air Self-Defense Force personnel numbered 45,600 with combat aircraft totaling 280. Japan has a paramilitary coast guard of 12,250 operating 333 patrol vessels.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Asia-and-Oceania/Japan-ARMED-FORCES.html

Look at the names. They're constitutionally mandated to be "SELF DEFENSE FORCES". Another public source of information states the following:

Although they are equipped as a conventional military force, they are by law an extension of the police force, created solely to ensure national security. Due to the constitutional debate concerning the Forces' status, any attempt at increasing the Forces' capabilities and budget tends to be controversial. Thus the JSDF's capabilities are mainly defensive, with only limited overseas capabilities. The JSDF lacks long range offensive capabilities such as long-range surface-to-surface missiles, marines, amphibious units, and large caches of ammunition. The Rules of Engagement are strictly defined by the Self-Defense Forces Act 1954.

"Well", you may say, "they deployed to Iraq".

given that Japan's military is constitutionally structured as solely a self-defense force, and operating in Iraq seemed at best tenuously connected to that mission. The Koizumi administration, however, decided to send troops to respond to a request from the US.[17] Even though they deployed with their weapons, because of constitutional restraints, the troops were protected by Australian units. The Japanese soldiers were there purely for humanitarian and reconstruction work, and were prohibited from opening fire on Iraqi insurgents unless they were fired on first. Japanese forces withdrew from Iraq in 2006.[19]

I'd submit humbly that I'm a bit more up to speed on the Japanese military capability than you, or even an unclassified online encyclopedia.

Why is it that people want to start pissing contests that they are ill-equipped to participate in?

 

[maxiep]

KJI seems like a signficantly greater threat than Saddam ever could have been. Makes you wonder about our choice of targets, doesn't it?

barfo

I can only assume that our strategy was to lean on China to contain NOK. It seems better than the alternative.

 

[barfo]

Force.

That's my solution.

Outsmarting people is a lot more fun and less painful

As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.

barfo

 

[huevonkiller]

KJI seems like a signficantly greater threat than Saddam ever could have been. Makes you wonder about our choice of targets, doesn't it?

barfo

Well you're not factoring in the intangibles. Saddam had the clutch gene, he was a beast in pressure situations.

 

[Denny Crane]

Look at the names. They're constitutionally mandated to be "SELF DEFENSE FORCES". Another public source of information states the following:


"Well", you may say, "they deployed to Iraq".


I'd submit humbly that I'm a bit more up to speed on the Japanese military capability than you, or even an unclassified online encyclopedia.

Why is it that people want to start pissing contests that they are ill-equipped to participate in?

The Japanese forces deployed were ambulances and drivers and that sort of thing.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

Can't we just nuke Ronan?

I have a weapon of mass destruction and I'm not afraid to use it.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I have petty insults and internet-bitching and I'm not afraid to use them.

fixed