<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Did we? I dont remember a second rounder being included in the deal for Norris. I thought the pick was compensation for Van Gundy.</div>
Nope, I?m pretty sure it was in the Norris deal. Our second rounder belonged to Atlanta in the Nazr deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How did I make it sound like he was already a superstar?? I always said he was young and had potential. Where did you get superstar from? Marbury is special alright. A talented player who cannot win. You dont see those everyday. What we got out of the deal was a loser, less salary, and less picks. The reason Williams didnt get any playtime is because his development was crushed. That's what career of course Crawford would have been a better player to have. If the Knicks had stuck with their young talent though Frank Williams would have been a better player.</div>
If Marbury is a star and you wouldn?t want Frank Williams over him, than the next level is a superstar. Either way, you made it sound as if Williams would be better than Marbury which he would not. In addition, Williams is not a better player than Jamal Crawford, either. Williams had some flashes of being good, but Crawford has had more and on top of that, unlike Williams, he has all-star potential. And as I asked before, why hasn?t Williams gotten any minutes with the Bulls? It shows a lot about his game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off Amare became rookie of the year all on his own. Because he was that good. He didnt become rookie of the year because of Marbury, he became rookie of the year despite Marbury's selfishness. You cant even compare Marbury to Nash. Nash helped Amare develop into the monster he is today. If the Marbury trade had never occured the Suns would have been looking to draft a center in the lottery, Amare would never have been as good as he was this year and everything would have been hunky dory in New York City.</div>
So can I say Amare became a monster on his own? Amare was already developing into a monster and since he worked on a legit midrange jumper in the summer, he took his own game to another level. I honestly believe Amare would have been as good as he was today with or without Nash?s help. I also see that you?ve neglected my point about Marbury turning Marion into an all-star ? a feat that not even Jason Kidd could do.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Van Horn having the best years of his career playing next to Marbury I dont see how that's possible. Maybe statistically but he was losing so I'm sure he wouldnt say the best years of his career took place playing with Marbury. I dont know if you remember but Van Horn was supposed to turn into a fantastic player. He was 6'10", could shoot the ball, had good handle for someone who was 6'10", could rebound the ball...he was supposed to turn into something special. But Marbury's selfishness stopped him from living up to his full potential. Do you see that? Marbury plays alongside player with potential...player does live up to full potential. Nash plays alongside player with potential...player becomes one of the top big men in the NBA. Coincidence? I think not.</div>
Statistically, Van Horn had the best years of his career playing alongside Marbury. He even said it himself. Remember when Marbury first got traded to the Knicks and everyone was talking about how he and Van Horn would coexist? Around that time, I heard Van Horn himself say I had the best years of my career playing next to Marbury. You can check an old paper if you want. The fact of the matter is when Marbury was playing next to Van Horn, he averaged:
19.4ppg / 7.7rpg / 1.7apg / 0.9spg / 0.7bpg
Once Marbury left, Van Horn averaged:
14.5ppg / 6.6rpg / 1.6apg / 0.8spg / 0.4bpg
I know you were going to bring up the fact Van Horn had better success in his career when Marbury left, but my point is Van Horn wasn?t as good of a player. All it means is Jason Kidd is a better player than Marbury and they had better success. How are you going to blame accuse Marbury of being the reason Van Horn didn?t reach his potential. That?s absurd; the reason why Van Horn didn?t become ?the next Larry Bird? was because he wasn?t good enough and obviously overrated on draft night. Despite his good shooting touch and sound rebounding skills, unfortunately, that was the only thing he can do. Van Horn is less clutch than Marbury, is softer than Frye, and there is a reason why he has been on 4 teams in the past 2 years. Overall, Van Horn has been on 5 teams in his 8 year career and mathematically that means every 1.6 years, Van Horn is traded. Surely Marbury isn?t the reason why Van Horn has been the NBA?s premier journeyman in recent years, is it?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First you advocate getting Kwame Brown because he might live up to his alleged potential. Now you say "Lampe does have a lot of potential, but it's not like he's really doing anything with it". You'd say anything to support Isiah Thomas. Brown has had every chance to prove himself but he hasnt and you support him. On the other hand you have a player who never even got a chance to prove himself. It takes patience and playtime to develop a young player and that's something Lampe never had. He's been moved from team to team and that has at the very least slowed his progress. It takes more than being a good player to win. And by the way even if Lampe nor Williams became as good as Marbury those two together would have certainly been worth more than Marbury.</div>
I advocated getting Kwame Brown
and Andray Blathce whom at full potential is a superstar ? just like Kwame. Also, we need to get rid of Sweetney because of our power forward glut and because of he just doesn?t fir in our future plans. In addition, you say that Sweetney could be ?pretty damn good? and yet you ignore Kwame ? a player who puts up better numbers over the course of his career. Blatche also has many great skills and has unlimited potential. Kwame is doing for more with his potential than Lampe is. I personally think Kwame would be good with a change of scenery and it?s a good thing he has the chance to do it with the Lakers next season. The difference is this is Kwame?s second team while this is Lampe?s third. The most disturbing part about Lampe is hwo he is struggling to get minutes on the
Hornets! If his talent is as great as you said it is, why in the world would Phoenix waive him? Wouldn?t they have an excellent frontline along with Amare if they kept this top talent in Lampe? It sure does make you wonder. They didn?t even have a full roster and they cut him. Some talent, huh?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All you say is Marbury is a 20/8 guy. But you still have not said where that 20/8 has taken us. Now stop ducking and rolling and answer the question! For all the cap space we gave up, for the draft picks we gave up, for the young talent we gave what have we gained??? Absolutely nothing! Marbury has done nothing for this team! We were bad before he came and we're still bad now except were minus all the things it took to get him here to keep up the losing. That is the truth of the Marbury deal!</div>
Okay, Marbury?s been on the Knicks for a year and a half took us to the playoffs once, and in his second season, didn?t. Give the man more time, please. You expect Lampe and Frank Williams to get many years before they make the least bit of an impact so at least give Marbury more than a year and a half. As I said before, Elton Brand and KG are both losers, too. This is the fault of no one, it?s just the unluckiness he has faced throughout his career.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know Fyre wont be much good the same way I know two apples plus two apples is four apples. Frye's softness plus weak frame plus lack of anything that he does particularly well equals not so good. For every player you can bring up that has had a bad summerleague and went on to succeed in the NBA I can probably name over a dozen who have had bad summerleagues and didnt stick in the NBA. Robinson is 5'6". That alone limits him. He'll always be a liability on the defensive end and will always need to be a player who gets out in transition. He is not starting material by any means. Roko Ukic on the other hand is definetely starting material. He can play in both the half court and in the open court and he could also be a player that exploits other point guards.</div>
2 + 2 being 4 is a fact whereas Frye not being much of a player is a blatant assumption. You?re saying this without watching his first NBA game. Not even his first preseason game. You?re right when you say ?For every player you can bring up that has had a bad summerleague and went on to succeed in the NBA I can probably name over a dozen who have had bad summerleagues and didnt stick in the NBA.? however, your not even giving Frye a chance to stick in the league. Your saying this when you have never seen Frye play a real NBA game. Your attempt to find negatives on Isiah is almost solely based on mere assumptions.
Now about Robinson, first of all, Robinson isn?t even 5?6 with shoes on. With shoes on he?s 5?9?. And his height means little to me; he knows how to play the game the right way and that?s what really matters. Malik Rose and Mike Sweetney are undersized, but they are both starting material. Robinson makes up for his height with his world-class explosiveness, quickness, and strength. If Robinson was about 6?2?, he could be a top 3 pick; maybe even #1 over Bogut. Robinson will be able to hold his own in the league and due to his many gifts. Spud Webb was a good player despite being two inches shorter than Robinson. Now that we have a taller and stronger version of him, I think we will be set for the future.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah's blue print is yet another reason Isiah should be fired. What was the last team in the NBA that ever won a championship by playing run and gun? Here's an easier question. What was the last team in the NBA that ever won a championship without a good low post prescence excluding the Bulls of course since they had the best player that ever lived in the world and the perfect team built around him. As anybody who's been paying attention to the way the league is heading would know the amount of quality big men are steadily declining. True low post scorers are getting even harder to find. Sweetney is a true low post scorer. How good of a low post scorer is up to him but there are few players who he cant back down at the powerforward position. He's hard working so there's a pretty good chance he can be pretty damn good. The fact that Isiah was willing to deal him for Kwame Brown of all people is disturbing to say the least.</div>
I don?t know of the last run and gun team that made the playoffs, but the Nets came pretty close and in 2003, and if Dirk Nowitzki had not been injured in the Western Conference Finals, it?s possible the Mavericks could have taken it past 6 games. The Heat are a high-paced team and if they were completely healthy, it?s possible they could have beaten the Pistons and beaten the Spurs in the Finals. Also if the Knicks could take it to the Conference Finals or the NBA Finals it would be a major success. From lottery to Conference Finals is nothing to be ashamed of and I?m sure many Knick fans would be surprised if something like that happened. In terms of low post scoring, David Lee is that. Now that he can work with Aguirre he?ll be solid. Don?t forget about Jackie Butler who I feel could be a good player in the league. He was just a high school kid who should?ve gone to college. We also have Maurice Taylor who is an excellent low post threat. The fact that that is the only thing he can do takes a lot away from the value he has on a team, but where we need help, which is in the post, he will come through. Isiah seeking to make the team better in trading Mike Sweetney for Kwame Brown isn?t disturbing, really. Kwame has much, much, more potential than Sweetney and has better career averages than Sweetney as well. Sweetney as I said on numerous occasions, doesn?t fit the blueprint of the team therefore he will be somewhat of a liability. In addition, we have a huge glut at power forward and Sweetney is the only movable asset we have. Lee, who just got drafted, isn?t going anywhere; how would that look if Isiah just traded a player he drafted.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I had the Bulls on my list of teams to make it in the playoffs. Noone knew that the Nets were going to pick up Carter that easily and they werent going to make the playoffs if they hadnt gotten him. The Cavaliers will be much more improved this upcoming season their practically a lock for the playoffs. Of course I can make these predictions about who will make the playoffs. Unless something incredible happens like all the star players in the East get injured for the season or something like that the Knicks wont make the playoffs.</div>
Did you have them there when they went 0-9? Be honest. Or did you have the Sonics there in the beginning of the season. The fact that no one knew Carter was going to get traded to the Nets proves my point even more. No one has any idea what will happen in the season, who will get injured, or who will simply underachieve. These are just assumptions, Tribute. Based on the off season moves Isiah has made so far, I honestly believe the Knicks will make the playoffs and according to fans of other teams, they have us making them, too. Although I have no idea what will happen in the season, on paper (which is what we?ll have to judge by) we look like a very solid team. RealGM said we?re the best team in the Atlantic with Larry Brown.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It does not matter whether or not he created it. It was his job to fix it. Period. He did not fix it. He did just the opposite and added to it. Added to it alot if you look at the numbers above. Why should he get props for getting Larry Brown? He didnt do anything. Isiah might be doing his best but it isnt good enough. Isiah has bumbled the job to the point of gross incompetence and he should be fired. Oh yeah I almost forgot about your question. If the Knicks make it to the second round and actually did something worth remembering than I'd build a shrine to Larry Brown for making something out of this mess Isiah calls a team. But that's not going to happen so it's irrelevant.</div>
The Knicks have had many problems since Layden left and instead of focusing on one problem that he didn?t fix, why don?t we take a look at the problems in which he did fix. In the Layden era, the Knicks were one of the oldest teams in the league and were full of stiffs. Now Isiah gave us young, athletic players who have good potential. Why not focus on that? He didn?t do anything? A big reason why Larry Brown is thinking about signing with the Knicks is because both him and Isiah are very good friends and Isiah has made a great impression on his kids and his wife. That has to be taken into consideration. Let?s not forget Isiah waited a long time for Brown and could have easily given up after his wife shot down his offer not too long ago. Regardless of whether or not it was easy or hard, Isiah signed perhaps the best coach in the game right now. That was his transaction he made on the team and that ups his GM ranking. If Larry Brown is the only reason why the Knicks have a successful season next year, than so be it. The only reason why Brown would be here in the first place is because he signed Brown.
