Hugo Chavez = Dead

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See, this is why when people say we may one day live for 200 years I shudder.

Can you imagine putting up with this douche for another 140 years?
 
Flags at half staff over at HuffPost, WaPost, NYTimes, and the 3 networks.
 
mook said:
See, this is why when people say we may one day live for 200 years I shudder.

Can you imagine putting up with this douche for another 140 years?
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Actually he wasn't as bad as the previous 4 presidents, he was just anti-American which made it seem like he was the devil.
 
Can someone explain to me why Chavez is considered evil? I hear his rhetoric and it's much more friendly to the people he represents than any rhetoric I hear from U.S. Politicians. With any understanding of CIA/US Foreign policy it would be a no-brainer to conclude that he was in his right to vilify the U.S. and its hegemony over the western hemisphere. So he wanted to create a trade association with other latin countries to undermine US economic dominance and he is somehow an evil person?

Has the shoe ever been on the other foot for some of you people? Especially you libertarians who finish far lower than either libs or conservatives on the "caring" quotient.
 
Denny Crane said:
A not too friendly view of Chavez:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/01/28/130128fa_fact_anderson
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I borrowed this quote from someone who responded to another Chavez article linked from your link:

"Venzuela is a developing nation of some 24 million people. It is now commonplace to cite the accepted statistics that since 2004 poverty has declined by 50%, extreme poverty by 70%, infant mortality by 35.%, college matriculation has increase by 200%. Similar statistics on the social health, welfare, and education of a once impoverished people can be cited for pages. The country does continue to have horrific problems such as crime and lethal prison conditions, problems with infrastructure, and the centuries old tactic of hoarding (a device in the Latin American business' class' tool box for use against populists who are feeding the poor. We have seen this movie.) What amazes me about the "beat the Venezuelan horse until it's dead" journalistic crowd is their callousness with regard to the physical and social changes for the better brought about for millions and millions of people. They are so jaded, this evades them as historical news: they have no distance or perspective on the subject from a national, regional, or global perspective. They want the trains to run on time, and to see nice shops, forgetting that this is the developing world. What upsets them so is that national priorities have shifted to the most needy and to the most necessary changes for the country. Other things have been neglected. But most journalists have not even begun to wrap their minds or their pens around the magnitude of the historical changes that have taken place in the populace, and which dwarf many of the problems they fret about. Over the long course of things these journalist will be diminished by being penny-wise and pound foolish historically speaking. The violence and the situation in the prisons are exceptions. From what I understand, the government has launched serious programs with regard to both, mainly crime, and these have been ineffective. These problems obviously warrant urgent and top priority for Venezuela. But most journalists show a callous disregard for the bettermant of the vital living measures for the poor and an astonishing indifference to the numerical magnitude of this phenomenon. Analytically, they are unable to intellegntly relate these feats to other problems this third worl country faces. Their reflexive disdain for the subject does not contribute to the intelligence of their analysis."
 
Did you miss the part about Caracas being an elite city before Chavez and now it's a slum?

That would indicate a serious decline in society in general. Like Detroit with the auto makers sucking wind.
 
Denny Crane said:
Did you miss the part about Caracas being an elite city before Chavez and now it's a slum?

That would indicate a serious decline in society in general. Like Detroit with the auto makers sucking wind.
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Serious question, have you ever been to Caracas?
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Serious question, have you ever been to Caracas?
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Serious answer, no. Do I have to? Do I have to go to Beirut to know it is now in rubbles and it used to be known as the "Paris of the Middle East?"
 
Denny Crane said:
Did you miss the part about Caracas being an elite city before Chavez and now it's a slum?

That would indicate a serious decline in society in general. Like Detroit with the auto makers sucking wind.
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The decline of the city as opposed to the gain of the populace. A place where bankers cannot afford to finish their buildings as opposed to the gain of the populace.
 
Paine Tablet said:
Can someone explain to me why Chavez is considered evil? I hear his rhetoric and it's much more friendly to the people he represents than any rhetoric I hear from U.S. Politicians. With any understanding of CIA/US Foreign policy it would be a no-brainer to conclude that he was in his right to vilify the U.S. and its hegemony over the western hemisphere. So he wanted to create a trade association with other latin countries to undermine US economic dominance and he is somehow an evil person?

Has the shoe ever been on the other foot for some of you people? Especially you libertarians who finish far lower than either libs or conservatives on the "caring" quotient.
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I care. I care enough to have you help yourself. I also care that you have privacy and freedom to live your life as you choose (with the limit that you not hurt another person).
 
I really hate when I am glad someone is dead. It makes me feel small and petty. Today, however, I shall rejoice in my smallness and pettiness.

Rot In Hell Hugo.
 
maxiep said:
I care. I care enough to have you help yourself. I also care that you have privacy and freedom to live your life as you choose (with the limit that you not hurt another person).
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You don't care about all things being equal. Most surely don't as an outcome because it deincentivizes one-upsmanship. But if we were to play an arbitrary game, I bet you'd care if I had an inherent advantage or two or three, especially if the game decided your outcome.
 
Paine Tablet said:
You don't care about all things being equal. Most surely don't as an outcome because it deincentivizes one-upsmanship. But if we were to play an arbitrary game, I bet you'd care if I had an inherent advantage or two or three, especially if the game decided your outcome.
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You're absolutely right I don't believe in equality of outcome. I do believe--as a cornerstone--in equality of opportunity.

I compete against people with more advantages than I have all the time. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Advantages don't always have to be decisive; many times they can be mitigated through hard work.
 
Paine Tablet said:
I stand by what I said, yes. But do you think the decline of the city is a good thing as opposed to the gain of the populace? Is it evil to have an opinion one way or another?
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I think it's the classic case of his government taking private property and spending money instead of letting the people do it.

There's "poverty" and there's statistical "poverty." If there are rural Venezuelans living on farms, growing their own food, hunting, fishing, enjoying the tropical climate and warm ocean, but they make $0, are they poor? Seems like they might be happier to be left alone.

No, I don't think the decline of the city, devaluation of their currency, shortage and high prices for goods required for daily survival, high crime, etc., are indications of a quality society.
 
A comment from CNN:

"Rest in peace, Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías. As a Venezuelan, I didn't agree with most of your policies and politics, but I do not rejoice in your death and I do respect the pain of your family and supporters.
In 1998, when you campaigned for the presidency -and promised to end corruption- despite my disappointment with the traditional parties, I did not support you because you had led a coup against president Carlos Andres Pérez. I didn't like Pérez, but he was elected by our people and attempting to overthrow him was proof that you did not respect the will of Venezuelans.
I didn't oppose 100% of what you did. I was grateful, for example, that you placed the issue of poverty on the table and you put the spotlight on millions of Venezuelans that until then had been excluded. I knew that the Cuban doctors in the slums were unprepared and unequipped, but I understood that they meant the world to the mother that knocks on their door at 3am. I was also happy of the way most Venezuelans started to care about politics again (some because they supported you; others because they opposed you). The anti-politic feeling we saw in the 90's was precisely what got you elected. And I also kept in mind that a majority of Venezuelans did support you, so you certainly had a right to be in office.
These are my 10 reasons why I will not miss you:
  1. Your authoritarian manner (which reflected a flaw probably most Venezuelans have), and your inability to engage in an honest dialogue with anyone that opposed you. Even from your death bed, you had a Supreme Court justice fired because she didn't agree with your politics.
  2. Your disrespect for the rule of law and your contribution to a climate of impunity in Venezuela. In 1999, you re-wrote the Constitution to fit your needs, and yet you violated it almost on a daily basis. With this example, it is no surprise that crime exploded in Venezuela. In 14 years, our homicide rate more than tripled from 22/100K to 74/100K. While judges were busy trying to prove their political allegiance to you, only 11% of homicides led to a conviction.
  3. Your empty promises and the way you manipulated many Venezuelans to think you were really working for them. In 14 years you built less public housing than any president before you did in their 5 year periods. Hospitals today have no resources, and if you go there in emergency you must everything from medicines to surgical gloves and masks. The truth is that you were better at blowing your own trumpet than at getting things done.
  4. The astounding level of corruption of your government. There was corruption before you got elected, but normally a government's scandals weren't made public until they handed power to the opposing party. Now we've heard about millions and millions of dollars vanishing in front of everybody's eyes, and your only reaction was to attack the media that revealed the corruption. The only politicians accused of corruption have been from parties that oppose you, and mostly on trumped up charges. For example, Leopoldo Lopez was never condemned by the courts but you still prevented him for running for office. His crime? Using money from the wrong budget allocation to pay for the salaries of teachers and firemen -because your government withheld the appropriate funds.
  5. The opportunities you missed. When you took office, the price of oil was $9.30, and in 2008 it reached $126.33. There was so much good you could have done with that money! And yet you decided to throw it away on corruption and buying elections and weapons. If you had used these resources well, 10.7% of Venezuelans would not be in extreme poverty.
  6. Your attacks on private property and entrepreneurship. You nationalized hundreds of private companies, and pushed hundreds more towards bankruptcy. Not because you were a communist or a socialist, but simply because you wanted no one left with any power to oppose you. If everyone was a public employee, you could force them to attend your political rallies, and the opposition would not get any funding.
  7. Your hypocrisy on freedom and human rights. You shut down more than 30 radio and television stations for being critical of your government, you denied access to foreign currency for newspapers to buy printing paper (regular citizens can't access foreign currency unless you authorize it), you imprisoned people without trial for years, you imprisoned people for crimes of opinion, you fired tens of thousands of public employees for signing a petition for a recall referendum and you denied them access to public services and even ID cards and passports.
  8. Your hypocrisy on the issue of Venezuela's sovereignty. You kicked out the Americans but then you pulled down your pants for the Cubans, Russians, Chinese and Iranians. We have Cuban officers giving orders in the Venezuelan army. Chinese oil companies work with a higher margin of profit than any Western companies did. And you made it clear that your alliances would be with governments that massacre their own people.
  9. Your hypocrisy on the issue of violence. You said this was a peaceful revolution but you allowed illegal armed groups like Tupamaros, La Piedrita and FBLN to operate. You gave them weapons. You had the Russians set up a Kalashnikov plant in Venezuela. You were critical of American wars but yet you gave weapons to the Colombian guerrilla, whose only agenda is murder and drug-dealing.
  10. Your hypocrisy on democracy. Your favorite insult for the opposition parties in Venezuela was "coupists", but you forgot you organized a coup in 1992, and the military that was loyal to you suggested they would support a coup in your favor if the opposition ever won the presidential elections. There was no democracy in your political party: you chose each of the candidates for the National Assembly and for city and state governments. When the opposition won the referendum that would have allowed you to change the Constitution in 2007, you disavowed the results and you figured out a way to change the articles and allow yourself to be reelected as many times as you wanted. You manipulated the elections in 2010 to make sure the opposition didn't get more than a third of seats in Parliament even though they got 51% of the popular vote. Your democracy was made of paper, you made sure there were no meaningful checks and balances and all institutions were your puppets.
  11. So no, Hugo I will not miss you. Rest in peace now, while we try to rebuild the mess of a country that you left us."
 
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The world has lost entertainment value, that is for sure.
 
Denny Crane said:
Did you miss the part about Caracas being an elite city before Chavez and now it's a slum?
Click to expand...

Denny Crane said:
Do I have to go to Beirut to know it is now in rubbles and it used to be known as the "Paris of the Middle East?"
Click to expand...

You want cities to be playgrounds for the rich. Okay. I can understand the selfish view of the U.S. ruling class and the news media they own.

Under Chavez, poverty in Venezuela went from 80% to 20%. He sold his oil below market price to poorer areas of many countries, including the U.S., Haiti, and Cuba. It made a big difference in average Haitian standard of living. The "dictator" was democratically-elected. His popular vote:

1998 56%
2000 60%
2006 63%
2012 55%

For a U.S. comparison, in 1980, Reagan was elected with 51% in a record-low turnout. The heavy-handed news media intimidated Democrats into silence for his whole term, with words like "mandate" and "popular."
 
The best line I've read so far: "Hugo Chavez removed from malignant tumor".
 
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