If I noticed this and an EC scout noticed, why didn't Frank?

[FOMW]

When you run a zipper for Vince and get him the ball at the top of the key, he has a tendency to settle for a jump shot. But if he gets the ball at the elbow and he's one dribble from the rim... No. 1, the defender knows that and he doesn't want to get dunked on so there's a better opportunity to draw a foul, but it also gives Vince many more options. Now, he can raise up right there and make that shot easy, he can put it down and get to the rim, or, if the defense is sagging, he can find people, because there's not a pass he can't make.</p>

The above is from the article linked at Nets Daily: http://www.nba.com/preview2007/njn.html</p>

When Vince got the ball at the foul line, and especially at the right corner, something good happened for the Nets almost every single time. His mindset and aggressiveness changes in that area of the floor (and in the post), perhaps because he realizes that the speed (both of himself and of rotating defenders) won't be as great and collisions at the rim therefore not as serious when those involved are only moving 2-3 steps instead of 5 or more. And he likely is less fearful of turnovers because the rotations (if there is only single coverage) can't get there before he reaches the basket. I just watched the great overtime game with Phoenix and it was amazing how effective the team was late in the game with Vince getting the ball at the foul line and upper right post. Should have used that play in lieu of isos and pick and rolls out on the wings and top of the key area a lot more last year.</p>

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[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

Agreed. Giving him the ball the 3 is (usually) isn't as good an idea. He's a good shooter, but a better a much better driver.</p>

 

[Kidd Karma]

Well hopefully the motion offense frees him up on those free throw catch options. I can see him start strongside a lot, curls off the baseline off Collins/Magloire picks, catch the pass from Kidd on the weakside and either pull up or drive. This is a scouts observation, and I'm sure that's the defensive report on VC, get him off the sweet spot allow him the triple at the top.</p>

 

[pegs]

This is the same problem with alot of NBA players like Vince(Tmac, Lebron, etc): they're given the ball outside of the 3pt line, where they don't have as many options as they would within the 3pt line or posting up down low.</p>

I don't really know what these NBA coaches are thinking with this strategy, or if they're simply giving players too much freedom, but it's really getting ridiculous. It not only is a more successful way to play with a player like Vince, but it's also way more entertaining.</p>

 

[ly_yng]

I imagine plays of this type are harder to execute successfully. Vince tends to feel out the defense before he attacks (or, more often, doesn't attack) the rim. If you take a few extra seconds at the foul line, there's already a help defender or two starting to cheat over. At the top of the key or the three point line, those help defenders can't really cheat that far before they've left their man wide open.</p>

Quick passes at the foul line would be great for Vince, but really, do you expect him to work hard to get open in a motion offense? More likely, he'd take the ball at the elbow, take his time and then have to negotiate a well-positioned double team.</p>

There are things that it's easy to criticize Frank for, but I have to think he's thought through every possible offensive play in the book, and if the Nets aren't doing it, there's probably a pretty good reason.</p>

 

[Dumpy]

And, in my opinion, the reason is that there are ten options in every play, and the players themselves get to choose which to implement based on the defensive structure, who is guarding who, who has an untied shoelace, etc.</p>

You can guess which "options" Vince likes to choose.</p>

 

[FOMW]

Obviously there are options on every play. But, as I am going back now and culling hilights from the entire 06-07 season (which I have on Tivo), I am getting a time lapse condensation of the games, concentrating almost entirely on the offensive end. And, I'm telling you, most of the time there was absolutely no strategy evident to get Vince the ball at the foul line. Whether that was because the players (Kidd and VC) just disregarded it and Vince ran all the way out to receive beyond the 3-point line I can't be sure. But tons of screens were set relatively high to get him the ball out beyond the top of the key or out pretty far on the wings. There were, however, a handful of games (especially in the 4th quarter and in games where he'd had trouble shooting early) where you could see a concerted effort to get him the ball at the foul line and elbows, and the results were consistently superb. Either a foul, a drive and score, a medium fallaway that touched nothing but net, or -best of all - a whipped a pass to a baseline-cutting teammate whose man had just left him to double team.</p>

Obviously getting the ball out further addresses one of the issues ly-ing raised (spacing the floor more and forcing the defense to commit to a double rather than cheat). But because he is only two steps and one dribble from a dunk at the foul line, IMO (and the footage backs this up) you literally can't "cheat" defensively in this scheme if you space the floor intelligently with other players. You have to come hard and force him to give up the ball or risk him putting it down and getting there a fraction of a second too late, either drawing a foul or giving up a layup (or both). Krstic and RJ were outstanding reacting to the former and he was equally outstanding hitting them with crisp passes. In short, none of the teams defending this play seemed able to deal with it, largely because VINCE made quicker, crisper decisions and put the ball on the floor with a real purpose of getting to the rim. For whatever psychological reasons (I think lessened fear of injury/bad collisions is the key), he goes harder and more directly to the rim when he starts from that area of the floor. He's probably not even aware that he has that tendency.</p>

So it becomes the job of the coach to see that and do everything possible to run screens and sets that have the player receiving the ball in that area (including reminding the PLAYER that he needs to get the ball at the elbows or foul line). I think it's fair to criticize Frank for not doing more in this regard because the evidence heavily suggests he fell short. And this from someone who generally likes Frank as a coach and certainly has confidence in his work ethic, preparation, and basketball knowledge.</p>

Incidentally, I also like Vince getting the ball on the wings in the 15 foot area because he is also similarly convicted and aggressive when he starts from there. But he's not quite as effective from the sides because the passing angles and ability to see the whole floor aren't as favorable, and the man guarding him has the baseline as a help defender. On the other hand, if you put a deadly 3-point shooter in the corner on the strong side, it's almost a sure-fire way to get that guy an open 3.</p>

So, to the extent that they run Vince isos, (as opposed to high pick and rolls, which so many around here mistakenly call isos), I would like to seem them run 40% of them from the foul line/elbow areas, about 20% from the 15-foot wing area (especially teamed with a great shooter in the corner), and 40% pure low post. That would be a significant adjustment to last year's percentages, where he was starting isos at least 30% of the time from near the 3-point line.</p>

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[pegs]

Great post, FOMW, and I agree with just about everything.</p>

The only problem I see is that, whether that is really the best move, especially if you look at the matchups. If Vince is in the game, against a small 2 guard such as, for example, Charlie Bell, wouldn't it be smarter and more successful to post up vince?</p>

I'll never understand why coaches of such players as Vince, Peirce, Lebron don't post up players more when they have an obvious advantage.</p>