I'm confused about bird rights (1 Viewer)

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Natebishop3

Don't tread on me!
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I used to think I had a pretty good grip on bird rights, but our ability to renounce and still re-sign JJ Hickson last summer really confused me.

If we decide not to tender a Qualifying offer to Eric Maynor, do we retain his bird rights but lose his restricted status?

How does the cap hold from Hickson work this summer? Do we have to renounce Hickson to get his cap hold off our salary cap?
 
I used to think I had a pretty good grip on bird rights, but our ability to renounce and still re-sign JJ Hickson last summer really confused me.

If we decide not to tender a Qualifying offer to Eric Maynor, do we retain his bird rights but lose his restricted status?

How does the cap hold from Hickson work this summer? Do we have to renounce Hickson to get his cap hold off our salary cap?

The reason we were able to renounce Hickson and resign him fall under an wierd part of the rule renouncing rules. If you renounce the rights to a player to sign a restricted free agent you get the renounced players rights back if you do not aquire said player.


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The reason we were able to renounce Hickson and resign him fall under an wierd part of the rule renouncing rules. If you renounce the rights to a player to sign a restricted free agent you get the renounced players rights back if you do not aquire said player.


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That's very strange.... so we were able to reacquire Hickson's rights because we failed to sign Hibbert? But that doesn't make sense because we never actually tendered an offer to Hibbert.
 
The reason we were able to renounce Hickson and resign him fall under an wierd part of the rule renouncing rules. If you renounce the rights to a player to sign a restricted free agent you get the renounced players rights back if you do not aquire said player.


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So this is the same scenario with Maynor? What if Hickson would have received an offer from someone else before we knew if we could have landed Hibbert?
 
In the case of Hickson, we just signed him as a free agent. He was not "renounced". We didn't have any HOLD of any kind on him. He didn't get any better offers, so decided to return with us for 1/yr $4M.

If the QO is offered (not necessarily signed or accepted) the team holds RFA rights to match contract. If QO is offered a cap hold is on the teams books until a contract is signed.
This is my understanding.
 
In the case of Hickson, we just signed him as a free agent. He was not "renounced". We didn't have any HOLD of any kind on him. He didn't get any better offers, so decided to return with us for 1/yr $4M.

If the QO is offered (not necessarily signed or accepted) the team holds RFA rights to match contract. If QO is offered a cap hold is on the teams books until a contract is signed.
This is my understanding.

See, but that doesn't make sense because we did have a hold on Hickson and we renounced it. He was an RFA and we had his bird rights, we did not send him a QO, so we lost his RFA status but somehow retained his bird rights (which we still have). What I don't understand is how a UFA has a cap hold, but you can renounce it and still hold onto the bird rights to go over the salary cap to re-sign them.
 
See, but that doesn't make sense because we did have a hold on Hickson and we renounced it. He was an RFA and we had his bird rights, we did not send him a QO, so we lost his RFA status but somehow retained his bird rights (which we still have). What I don't understand is how a UFA has a cap hold, but you can renounce it and still hold onto the bird rights to go over the salary cap to re-sign them.

I think it's this...

Larry Bird exception
Perhaps the most well-known of the NBA's salary cap exceptions, it is so named because the Boston Celtics were the first team permitted to exceed the salary cap to re-sign one of their own players (in that case, Larry Bird). Free agents who qualify for this exception are called "qualifying veteran free agents" or "Bird Free Agents" in the CBA, and this exception falls under the auspices of the Veteran Free Agent exception. In essence, the Larry Bird exception allows teams to exceed the salary cap to re-sign their own free agents, at an amount up to the maximum salary. To qualify as a Bird free agent, a player must have played three seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. Players claimed after being amnestied have their Bird rights transferred to their new team. Other players claimed off waivers are not eligible for the full Bird exception, but may qualify for the early Bird exception. Prior to an arbitrator ruling in June 2012, all players that were waived and changed teams lost their Bird rights.[14][15] This means a player can obtain "Bird rights" by playing under three one-year contracts, a single contract of at least three years, or any combination thereof. It also means that when a player is traded, his Bird rights are traded with him, and his new team can use the Bird exception to re-sign him. Under the 2011 CBA, Bird-exception contracts can be up to five years in length, down from six under the 2005 CBA.[5]

Early Bird exception
This is the lesser form of the Larry Bird Exception. Free agents who qualify for this exception are called "early qualifying veteran free agents," and qualify after playing two seasons with the same team. Players that are traded or claimed off waivers have their Bird rights transferred to their new team. Prior to an arbitrator ruling in June 2012, all players that were waived and changed teams lost their Bird rights.[14][15] Using this exception, a team can re-sign its own free agent for either 175% of his salary the previous season, or the NBA's average salary, whichever is greater. Early Bird contracts must be for at least two seasons, but can last no longer than four seasons. If a team agrees to a trade that would make a player lose his Early Bird Rights, he has the power to veto the trade.
A much-publicized example for this was Devean George, who vetoed his inclusion into a larger trade during the 2007–08 season that would have sent him from the Dallas Mavericks to the New Jersey Nets.
 
I think it's this...

No, I understand that he had his bird rights transferred through the waiver process, but I thought we renounced them by not tendering him a QO.

How can you renounce your RFA status over a player, yet keep his bird rights, all while taking his cap hold off your salary cap?
 
No, I understand that he had his bird rights transferred through the waiver process, but I thought we renounced them by not tendering him a QO.

How can you renounce your RFA status over a player, yet keep his bird rights, all while taking his cap hold off your salary cap?

I don't think a waived player has the "QO" exception though. This is why it's an Early Bird Exemption.
 
I don't think a waived player has the "QO" exception though. This is why it's an Early Bird Exemption.

We have Hickson's full bird rights though. Not "early bird rights". I'm pretty sure "early bird rights" only apply to second rounders and guys who have played for you for 2 years.

Didn't Hickson's RFA status transfer with him when we picked him up off waivers?
 
http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/i...zers_will_not_extend_qualifying_offer_to.html

Trail Blazers general manager Neil Olshey on Friday said the team will not make a qualifying offer to J.J. Hickson, allowing the fourth-year forward to become an unrestricted free agent at 9 p.m. Saturday.
The Blazers had until Saturday to tender a $4.4 million qualifying offer to Hickson in order to make him a restricted free agent and preserve their right to match any other team's offer. Hickson, who played 19 games with the Blazers after he was claimed off waivers from Sacramento, averaged 15.1 points and 8.3 rebounds in 32 minutes a game for Portland.

So how did we waive our restricted status over JJ while still keeping his bird rights? This is what confuses me.
 
You just need BrianFromWA to weigh in on this for you. I am sure he could give us the 411.
 
We have Hickson's full bird rights though. Not "early bird rights". I'm pretty sure "early bird rights" only apply to second rounders and guys who have played for you for 2 years.

Didn't Hickson's RFA status transfer with him when we picked him up off waivers?

If we had his "full bird rights" we could have traded him and his bird rights would transfer over. I seem to remember Brian or RR7 explaining this and using early bird rights as a reference.

But trust me, I am not even close to knowledgeable about this shit. I just remember things easy.
 
http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/i...zers_will_not_extend_qualifying_offer_to.html



So how did we waive our restricted status over JJ while still keeping his bird rights? This is what confuses me.

What makes you think we kept his Bird rights? I'd have to go back and study the particulars, but it's possible we didn't need his Bird rights to resign Hickson to that 1 yr $4 mil contract. After Hibbert rejected us, and we resigned Batum, we may have been far enough under the cap to offer Hickson $4 million. Or, if we were over the cap, we could have used part of the MLE on Hickson.

Again, I don't remember the particulars at that level of detail, just tossing out ways we could have resigned Hickson in spite of not having his Bird rights.

BNM
 
What makes you think we kept his Bird rights? I'd have to go back and study the particulars, but it's possible we didn't need his Bird rights to resign Hickson to that 1 yr $4 mil contract. After Hibbert rejected us, and we resigned Batum, we may have been far enough under the cap to offer Hickson $4 million. Or, if we were over the cap, we could have used part of the MLE on Hickson.

Again, I don't remember the particulars at that level of detail, just tossing out ways we could have resigned Hickson in spite of not having his Bird rights.

BNM

If we didn't have his bird rights, we wouldn't currently have his bird rights (which we do). I'm pretty sure we went over the cap to sign him.
 
Folks, JJ's agent appealed and was awarded Bird rights.

That was an unusual one-off situation.

http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/i...s_ruling_on_bird_rights_gives_blazers_mo.html

I think the NBA appealed that ruling and then the Player Association settled with them and JJ was only given Early Bid Rights (Not 100% on this so if anyone can find a link...).

At either rate it doesn't answer how we signed him this off-season while going over the cap (according to most) after we supposedly renounced him earlier in the summer.

Edit: I think we did have cap space. We had something like 2.2 MIL in cap space available before taking on Maynor.
 
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Last summer, JJ coming in via waivers to us, then ruling gave him Restricted rights by Blazers for him. We COULD have offered him QO and been able to match salary offers. We didn't offer him QO. There was no cap hold. We signed him using cap space.

Now, this summer, we are in the same situation again, we have the right to offer him QO (but won't because cap hold is too high) and match any offers for him. I doubt we will.
 
I used to think I had a pretty good grip on bird rights, but our ability to renounce and still re-sign JJ Hickson last summer really confused me.

If we decide not to tender a Qualifying offer to Eric Maynor, do we retain his bird rights but lose his restricted status?

How does the cap hold from Hickson work this summer? Do we have to renounce Hickson to get his cap hold off our salary cap?

So I think the consensus is now that we did have cap space this summer to sign Hickson outright. Before the Maynor trade we had about 2.2 MIL in cap room. Now we are over the cap by like 335k.
 
Birds have the same rights that we do, but are less capable of defending them. :sigh:
 
So I think the consensus is now that we did have cap space this summer to sign Hickson outright.

That's what I thought. I was typing up a response earlier, but got distracted by work (hate it when that happens). I thought after Hibbert declined our huge offer, and we resign Batum, we still had enough cap space to sign Hickson to his $4 mil contract. It was a good strategy. Swing for the fences with a big FA offer, and if that fails resign your won guy for less than his QO would have been.

In light of the new more onerous luxury tax, I think the NBA needs to revisit how cap holds are calculated. I think they should just make the cap hold equal to the QO. Nobody is going to give Eric Maynor $5.85 mil per season to be their back-up PG. Just like nobody gave Hickson the $5.2 million of his cap hold last season.

BNM
 
But that doesn't make sense.... we renounced him so we should have lost his bird rights completely. How do we now have his bird rights to use this summer?
 
But that doesn't make sense.... we renounced him so we should have lost his bird rights completely. How do we now have his bird rights to use this summer?

Looks to me like the Bird Rights are retained because he didn't sign with any other team.
 
Really, what rights do birds actually have? On second thought, I'm not entirely sure I wanna know....

birds-image.jpg
 
Wow a lot of misinformation in this thread. We didn't tender Hickson a QO so he became an UFA with full bird rights. We verbally agreed to sign Hibbert but then as Indy agreed to match we never formally signed him. We never renounced Hicksons bird rights; we were planning to if we could sign a worthwhile free agent but that never came to pass. We were able to sign Freeland and Clavier with exceptions. So in the end we just stayed above the salary cap and resigned Hickson using bird rights; to a one year $4 million deal.
 
First, "Let (Neil Olshey) worry about how we manage our cap and how guys get paid." :)

But to answer a few of the questions, Draco's right about a lot of it.

1. You have to be under contract with one team for 3 consecutive years to be considered a "bird exception free agent" (or 2 for "early bird"--which we don't need to go into here). All that means is that a) the team can go over its salary cap amount to re-sign you, and b) you can have a maximum contract of 5 years instead of 4 and at 7.5% raises instead of 4.5%.

2. JJ's case was a bit odd (same with Novak, Lin and Billups) because normally, you have to be with one team for 3 years (or be traded, in which case your Bird Rights follow you). The CBA is pretty explicit that if you CLEAR waivers, your Bird rights are gone. But those guys all were picked up on waivers before clearing, so they kind of fell into a loophole, and the arbitrator ruled that they could retain whatever Bird rights they'd earned (full Bird for JJ, early Bird for Lin).

3. But as Draco said, we didn't "use" Bird to re-sign JJ. He was renounced to give us more space (removing his free-agent cap hold of 4.3M or so) and became a UFA. If we would've gone over the cap signing anyone, then we couldn't have offered JJ any more than the Room Exception. But we had space, and he signed with us on a 1/4M deal. Technically, right this second, he doesn't have any Bird rights, which is why he had a no-trade clause. He will at the end of the year, which, of course, is when you need them. ;)
Coon CBA #98: When CAN'T a player be traded said:
When the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, his Larry Bird/Early Bird rights are not traded with him, and instead becomes a Non-Bird free agent.

Non-Bird FA are more restricted in the contracts they can get. See Coon #25 for more writeup on it.

4. The unrenounce-the-renounce aspect. If we would've renounced JJ to get enough space to sign Hibbert, and Indiana matched, then we could have rescinded the renouncement and had his free-agent cap hold of 4.33M go back on our books, reducing the amount by which we could sign UFAs. But we didn't do that. For instance, this summer we can have a 5.3M cap hold for Maynor and 7.6M for JJ (190% of his previous contract). This effectively means that we have no cap space. But let's say we negotiate with RFA Tyreke Evans for a deal starting at 7.5M. We can renounce JJ to offer Tyreke the deal, which he signs. SAC says they match, so we can then rescind JJ's renouncement and have his FA cap hold put back on our books.
 
First, "Let (Neil Olshey) worry about how we manage our cap and how guys get paid." :)

But to answer a few of the questions, Draco's right about a lot of it.

1. You have to be under contract with one team for 3 consecutive years to be considered a "bird exception free agent" (or 2 for "early bird"--which we don't need to go into here). All that means is that a) the team can go over its salary cap amount to re-sign you, and b) you can have a maximum contract of 5 years instead of 4 and at 7.5% raises instead of 4.5%.

2. JJ's case was a bit odd (same with Novak, Lin and Billups) because normally, you have to be with one team for 3 years (or be traded, in which case your Bird Rights follow you). The CBA is pretty explicit that if you CLEAR waivers, your Bird rights are gone. But those guys all were picked up on waivers before clearing, so they kind of fell into a loophole, and the arbitrator ruled that they could retain whatever Bird rights they'd earned (full Bird for JJ, early Bird for Lin).

3. But as Draco said, we didn't "use" Bird to re-sign JJ. He was renounced to give us more space (removing his free-agent cap hold of 4.3M or so) and became a UFA. If we would've gone over the cap signing anyone, then we couldn't have offered JJ any more than the Room Exception. But we had space, and he signed with us on a 1/4M deal. Technically, right this second, he doesn't have any Bird rights, which is why he had a no-trade clause. He will at the end of the year, which, of course, is when you need them. ;)


Non-Bird FA are more restricted in the contracts they can get. See Coon #25 for more writeup on it.

4. The unrenounce-the-renounce aspect. If we would've renounced JJ to get enough space to sign Hibbert, and Indiana matched, then we could have rescinded the renouncement and had his free-agent cap hold of 4.33M go back on our books, reducing the amount by which we could sign UFAs. But we didn't do that. For instance, this summer we can have a 5.3M cap hold for Maynor and 7.6M for JJ (190% of his previous contract). This effectively means that we have no cap space. But let's say we negotiate with RFA Tyreke Evans for a deal starting at 7.5M. We can renounce JJ to offer Tyreke the deal, which he signs. SAC says they match, so we can then rescind JJ's renouncement and have his FA cap hold put back on our books.

[video=youtube;g_cBPc6VSaI]
 

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