Interesting National take on Lillard and Hickson

[Mediocre Man]

Pretty spot on I think . Lillard is a God awful defender

http://www.blazersedge.com/2013/1/3...-damian-lillard-as-roy-and-j-j-hickson-as-mip

 

[HailBlazers]

You know nothing

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Lillard is a godawful defender. However, his defensive stats (DRtg primarily) are in line with other point guards of his calibre during their rookie years.

http://bkref.com/tiny/37PXC

One thing you'll notice is that ll those guards have DRtgs higher than their ORtgs, the sign of a bad defender. And really, it goes to show that defense is something that takes time to learn at the NBA level, where as shooting and passing are skills you learn from Day 1.

Here's an interesting list, of guards with a rookie PER of at least 15, AST% of at least 20%, with 1000 minutes played, sorted by WS/48: http://bkref.com/tiny/VhHSA

Now that sample size isn't as much of an issue (though the creampuff schedule might make this worse later on for Lillard), it's interesting to see Damian in the context of other decent rookie guards.

EDIT: FINALLY got the right tiny URL!

 

[Nikolokolus]

I'm somewhat confident Lillard can at least rise to the level of "adequate" in terms of his defense given time. He'll never be elite, because he doesn't appear to possess the freakish arm length or size of a guy like Jrue Holliday, nor the elite quickness and explosiveness of say, Russell Westbrook, but he at least seems marginally aware of defensive spacing when he's on the floor and he's game. His biggest issue that I've seen (this is just an off-hand observation, with no idea of how he breaks down in synergy, etc.) is that he struggles getting over screens and too easily gives up.

 

[maxiep]

Lillard is a rookie who is being asked both to run a team and to score. Defense will come later. He has the physical tools; it's just something on which he needs to work.

Edit: Between the time of reading the link and posting, BC and Nik make two posts making my points but much better.

 

[Harry's Raincoat]

Can't argue with the original article. Lillard is learning the NBA. I have a feeling the talent level he's faced during the past 60 days is better than in his previous 4 years at Weber State.
Hickson is doing his job and doing it well. He's a poor teams starting level player, but not on a playoff team (unless back with Lebron). We'll probably lose him to someone willing to overpay him next season. But we shouldn't over pay him to keep him. He's not worth it IMO. We need to keep going to the well for Stars until we get another one.

 

[Eastoff]

Can't argue with the original article. Lillard is learning the NBA. I have a feeling the talent level he's faced during the past 60 days is better than in his previous 4 years at Weber State.
Hickson is doing his job and doing it well. He's a poor teams starting level player, but not on a playoff team (unless back with Lebron). We'll probably lose him to someone willing to overpay him next season. But we shouldn't over pay him to keep him. He's not worth it IMO. We need to keep going to the well for Stars until we get another one.

agreed.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

agreed.

Seconded.

 

[magnifier661]

Pretty spot on I think . Lillard is a God awful defender

http://www.blazersedge.com/2013/1/3...-damian-lillard-as-roy-and-j-j-hickson-as-mip

Well we had another player that was great on this team that sucked on the defensive end. His name was Brandan Roy. I suspect Lillard's inability on defense has more to do with not understanding the NBA speed on defense then inability. Eventually he will get the timing down and learn tricks with positioning his man towards the help. Once that happens, I suspect him to average a much better stat defensively. I doubt he will ever be stellar, but he will be good enough.

Hickson should win the award because he's been so instrumental in our success. His rebounding effort has been contagious with Aldridge and Batum averaging a much higher rate on.

 

[mook]

What in his life has prepared him to guard NBA-caliber guards? Weber frickin' State? lol.

Most of the other college-level draft PG's have played against elite college players, at least. For most of them the problem is figuring out tendencies (and just not being in awe) of guys like Westbrook and Nash.

I doubt Lillard was ever even asked to take a tough defensive assignment in college, given how much of Weber State's offense ran through him. If I were his coach back then no way would I risk his scoring and passing by picking up cheap fouls. So he's probably used to guarding the more mediocre guard on Big Sky conference teams. Big shock that he suddenly can't contain a Curry or Holliday.

He's a smart guy who works hard and has a big competitive fire. He'll get there. He may not in practice going up against the likes of Ronnie Price (the Weber State of backup PG's), but give him enough games and he'll be a good defender.

 

[Rhal]

I'm somewhat confident Lillard can at least rise to the level of "adequate" in terms of his defense given time. He'll never be elite, because he doesn't appear to possess the freakish arm length or size of a guy like Jrue Holliday, nor the elite quickness and explosiveness of say, Russell Westbrook, but he at least seems marginally aware of defensive spacing when he's on the floor and he's game. His biggest issue that I've seen (this is just an off-hand observation, with no idea of how he breaks down in synergy, etc.) is that he struggles getting over screens and too easily gives up.

Pretty much agree with you except that he has good size and reach for a pg. 6'3 6'7 3/4 reach puts him at rose/Westbrook size which is bigger then most pgs in the league.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[magnifier661]

Pretty much agree with you except that he has good size and reach for a pg. 6'3 6'7 3/4 reach puts him at rose/Westbrook size which is bigger then most pgs in the league.

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Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I agree with Nik, but I disagree that Lillard lacks the size to be a premier defender. Personally I doubt he will ever be elite on the defensive end because he is asked to concentrate more on the offensive end. I would just like to see him become an above average defender; which I suspect will take at least 2-3 more years.

 

[mook]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I agree with Nik, but I disagree that Lillard lacks the size to be a premier defender. Personally I doubt he will ever be elite on the defensive end because he is asked to concentrate more on the offensive end. I would just like to see him become an above average defender; which I suspect will take at least 2-3 more years.

He's being asked this year to be an aggressive offensive player. But if Batum continues to blossom in his point forward role, it may be that we start asking a lot more out of Lillard on the defensive end. The Pippen Bulls proved that a good point forward opens up all kinds of options in how you use the rest of your lineup.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I agree with Nik, but I disagree that Lillard lacks the size to be a premier defender. Personally I doubt he will ever be elite on the defensive end because he is asked to concentrate more on the offensive end. I would just like to see him become an above average defender; which I suspect will take at least 2-3 more years.

Lillard has slightly above average measurables for his position but he's not exactly an explosive athlete. That's not to say he's a poor athlete by any means, but to be a premier defensive player a guy either needs elite physical tools or elite anticipation skills. Lillard doesn't appear to possess those traits, which tells me that his ceiling as a defensive player is probably "average" and there's no shame in that, especially since it looks like he might be a truly special offensive player in the making.

 

[blue9]

Also, guarding the PG position requires a team effort more than any other position on the floor - you need a plan in place, and players who understand the plan and can implement the plan. It requires knowing the PGs tendencies and pushing the PG into spots on the floor where they are less effective, or getting the ball out of their hands entirely. We've seen teams effectively take the ball out of Lillard's hands by doubling him hard above the 3-point line - it's not one guy who's playing good defense, it's a team effort and credit goes to the coach. I don't think Rose is a particularly gifted defender, but that didn't keep the Bulls from being the best defensive team in the league once Thibs started coaching them.
That's not to say that individual defense is worthless - I love defensive players. It's one of the reasons I think Rondo is easily a Top 3 PG in the league, and possibly the best.

 

[magnifier661]

Lillard has slightly above average measurables for his position but he's not exactly an explosive athlete. That's not to say he's a poor athlete by any means, but to be a premier defensive player a guy either needs elite physical tools or elite anticipation skills. Lillard doesn't appear to possess those traits, which tells me that his ceiling as a defensive player is probably "average" and there's no shame in that, especially since it looks like he might be a truly special offensive player in the making.

I can agree with what you are saying. And if Lillard can just be an average defender; it's going to be a measurable improvement for our team.

 

[Natebishop3]

Sheesh..... great scorer, good passer, AND you want defense? Some people are never satisfied

 

[magnifier661]

Sheesh..... great scorer, good passer, AND you want defense? Some people are never satisfied

I know it seems odd to want more, but look how much better Aldridge looks when he is scoring more inside and rebounding at a better rate. He's keeping his same average with points; but now he's doing a much better job on areas that we bitched about. If Lillard is a below average defender for his entire career; I won't think he's shit. I just want him to be a superstar. Superstars excel in all areas. The less glaring weaknesses they have, the more "valuable" they are to the team and the league in general.

 

[blue9]

Superstars excel in all areas.

Not true. See: Amare; Melo; Howard; Bosh.
But I get what you're saying. True superstars should excel in all areas. Personally I never considered Amare or Bosh to be real superstars - they are/were just media superstars.

 

[magnifier661]

Not true. See: Amare; Melo; Howard; Bosh.
But I get what you're saying. True superstars should excel in all areas. Personally I never considered Amare or Bosh to be real superstars - they are/were just media superstars.

I agree as well. Just like I never liked Carter or T-Mac as a superstar. They were more of a "fan superstar" type player. Players like Magic, Thomas, Bird, Jordan and even Kobe had the scoring game, but more impressively; they were good defenders too.

 

[Natebishop3]

Steve Nash is a horrendous defender. Always has been, always will be.

Jason Kidd was supposed to be a good defender. Andre Miller hung 52 on him.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Also, guarding the PG position requires a team effort more than any other position on the floor - you need a plan in place, and players who understand the plan and can implement the plan. It requires knowing the PGs tendencies and pushing the PG into spots on the floor where they are less effective, or getting the ball out of their hands entirely. We've seen teams effectively take the ball out of Lillard's hands by doubling him hard above the 3-point line - it's not one guy who's playing good defense, it's a team effort and credit goes to the coach. I don't think Rose is a particularly gifted defender, but that didn't keep the Bulls from being the best defensive team in the league once Thibs started coaching them.
That's not to say that individual defense is worthless - I love defensive players. It's one of the reasons I think Rondo is easily a Top 3 PG in the league, and possibly the best.

It's probable that our horrendous interior defense is causing Lillard's stats to look worse than they are (guards driving and scoring against us at will), though he is definitely a little uninterested in fighting through picks.

 

[magnifier661]

It's probable that our horrendous interior defense is causing Lillard's stats to look worse than they are (guards driving and scoring against us at will), though he is definitely a little uninterested in fighting through picks.

I think it has more to do with the mid court help. It seems the guards are open around the free-throw line.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

I think it has more to do with the mid court help. It seems the guards are open around the free-throw line.

Good observation. Depending on the assignments, that stretch defense is either Wes's or Hickson's to perform. If Batum is guarding their pest on-ball player, and Lillard is guarding their shortest player, and LA is guarding their tallest player, that leaves Wes or Hickson to slide off their man for a double-team, and since Hickson's probably already moving to box out, and Wes is injured... I bet Lillard's Defensive numbers have taken a huge hit in the last 8 games!

EDIT; that's probably all easily refutable bullshit, but I feel like our team doesn't commit to a double team at all, giving only cursory help before running back to position. That's everybody's fault.

 

[magnifier661]

Good observation. Depending on the assignments, that stretch defense is either Wes's or Hickson's to perform. If Batum is guarding their pest on-ball player, and Lillard is guarding their shortest player, and LA is guarding their tallest player, that leaves Wes or Hickson to slide off their man for a double-team, and since Hickson's probably already moving to box out, and Wes is injured... I bet Lillard's Defensive numbers have taken a huge hit in the last 8 games!

EDIT; that's probably all easily refutable bullshit, but I feel like our team doesn't commit to a double team at all, giving only cursory help before running back to position. That's everybody's fault.

Yeah man and that's why I was such a fan of the late 90's team. They had arguably the best D our franchise had ever had. Even Rider was a decent perimeter defender. Greg Anthony, Wallace, Augman, Williams and Jackson were really good help defenders.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1999.html

Check out their defensive category.

Holding opponents to 41% shooting, 6th in opponents rebounding, 3rd in total rebounds, 5th in blocks, 5th in points, 2nd in SRS, 6th in DRtg, 6th in eFG%, 3rd in DRB%.

I want our team to eventually get to that defensive efficiency. Then we can start talking contention.

 

[handiman]

Jason Kidd was supposed to be a good defender. Andre Miller hung 52 on him.

Kidd will be remembered, and rightfully so, as one of the all-time great defenders at the PG position. He's barely a shadow of his former self defensively, however. Miller's 52 point outburst is a reflection of that, not a contradiction of it.

 

[mook]

Holding opponents to 41% shooting, 6th in opponents rebounding, 3rd in total rebounds, 5th in blocks, 5th in points, 2nd in SRS, 6th in DRtg, 6th in eFG%, 3rd in DRB%.

....with Damon Stoudamire as their starting PG. Ugh....

Even Sabonis was a nice defensive fit. Immobile as hell, but in an era where Shaq was so dominant (and there were several other really good centers) you needed that kind of size. Highly underrated rebounder too.

 

[blue9]

Sabas was the all time greatest person to ever play basketball!

 

[RoyToy]

Lillard has slightly above average measurables for his position but he's not exactly an explosive athlete. That's not to say he's a poor athlete by any means, but to be a premier defensive player a guy either needs elite physical tools or elite anticipation skills. Lillard doesn't appear to possess those traits, which tells me that his ceiling as a defensive player is probably "average" and there's no shame in that, especially since it looks like he might be a truly special offensive player in the making.

I've seen glimpses of elite anticipation from him.

His defense has been below average. I think he ends up as an average defender.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Lillard has a ways (defensively) to go but it took Billups a while as well.

I'd still like Neil to get him a stopper at SG.

I'd target Avery Bradley.