Is it the NBA or the Players or Both?

[Orion Bailey]

Okay,

Ive been watching some good videos that happen to have a lot of old school footage games from the 70's and 80' and even early 90's.

On the side....
I stumbled across this...Note this guys #5 greatest play ever!!!



Now, to the Poll....

Yes, there was more contact allowed back then, which obviously breeds a more physical type of game.
Yes, the league has change the rules regarding hand checking and contact, but this is not what I am talking about. I am speaking of hustle.
Desire.
The will to be the best and the discipline to not stop until you achieve it.

I live by two things for the most part....

There is no such thing as perfect.
I will never stop striving for perfection.

I don't know how I came about this trait because my parents don't have it and it isn't all positive. It leads to sleepless nights and an endless need to improve everything one possibly can, both inside and one's surroundings.

With that said, it is a trait found in many successful people (I could care less at the moment about myself and success, this isn't about me), that I can directly relate to and is found in many elite athletes.

It has been said even for today's athletes though, that they all must have this trait, this killer instinct. This desire to be the best no matter what.

I thought so too. Then I stumbled across this video, while watching clips and started thinking.



This is a meaningless game that has no value to anyone but the fans. This does not affect individual stats or team win loss or anything of the sort. It doesn't win a medal or an NBA championship. All that the players can possibly gain out of this is more fans... but they could also get injured.

Watch how they are playing. The hustle, the grit, the DESIRE TO WIN AND BE THE BEST!!! regardless of what monetary value or accolades they could gain from giving such effort.

THIS is the grit that is missing in today's players with exception of a precious few. But back then everybody had it and everyone took getting beat personal. Today's players simply give up too easily.

Some people say it's because of the rule changes. I call bullshit. I say they are driven by other factors. Fame, Money, etc.... SOCIAL MEDIA is a HUGE distraction for the bulk of society, including NBA players.

The Rookies coming up grew up playing NBA2k, not playground pickup.

I do not blame it on the NBA's rule changes. Players can still have desire and play with grit without having to foul.

Are the kids brought up by their parents in a privileged environment and not taught how to suck it up, swallow your pride, wipe the tear away and get the fuck back out there and give it your all?

I don't have kids, but I have many friends and family with kids, and I do see a sense of "pampering" or "participation awards" being handed out with little support/advise on how to power through the loss or tough game and do better, focus more; whatever the moment is calling for to turn the game or event around

I personally feel like it is a combination of pampering parents and technology/social media.

The pussification of the will/desire in the child growing up, combined with the increased distractions of technology and pressure of social media, and you have a lack of focus and a weakened will, that has no clue how to get back up when knocked down.

I hated the song, but have come to understand how powerful the hook is/was.





So few NBA players seem to have this concept, but you know who said it best?????

This guy right here.....




"It's not about how hard you can hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep on going."

Today's NBA only thinks about hitting and can't take a hit worth shit these days.....

What the fuck happened??????

 

[Sinobas]

Could many players be over-training? Basketball players of today are heavier and more muscular, but that doesn't translate into toughness on the court. Buck Williams was a stud at 6' 8 220. Dennis Rodman was nicknamed the "worm" because he was so skinny. And I hear about guys weight training during the season, and think...wtf spend your energy on that when you're playing so many games. that weight training simply has very little benefit to basketball.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Okay,

Ive been watching some good videos that happen to have a lot of old school footage games from the 70's and 80' and even early 90's.

On the side....
I stumbled across this...Note this guys #5 greatest play ever!!!



Now, to the Poll....

Yes, there was more contact allowed back then, which obviously breeds a more physical type of game.
Yes, the league has change the rules regarding hand checking and contact, but this is not what I am talking about. I am speaking of hustle.
Desire.
The will to be the best and the discipline to not stop until you achieve it.

I live by two things for the most part....

There is no such thing as perfect.
I will never stop striving for perfection.

I don't know how I came about this trait because my parents don't have it and it isn't all positive. It leads to sleepless nights and an endless need to improve everything one possibly can, both inside and one's surroundings.

With that said, it is a trait found in many successful people (I could care less at the moment about myself and success, this isn't about me), that I can directly relate to and is found in many elite athletes.

It has been said even for today's athletes though, that they all must have this trait, this killer instinct. This desire to be the best no matter what.

I thought so too. Then I stumbled across this video, while watching clips and started thinking.



This is a meaningless game that has no value to anyone but the fans. This does not affect individual stats or team win loss or anything of the sort. It doesn't win a medal or an NBA championship. All that the players can possibly gain out of this is more fans... but they could also get injured.

Watch how they are playing. The hustle, the grit, the DESIRE TO WIN AND BE THE BEST!!! regardless of what monetary value or accolades they could gain from giving such effort.

THIS is the grit that is missing in today's players with exception of a precious few. But back then everybody had it and everyone took getting beat personal. Today's players simply give up too easily.

Some people say it's because of the rule changes. I call bullshit. I say they are driven by other factors. Fame, Money, etc.... SOCIAL MEDIA is a HUGE distraction for the bulk of society, including NBA players.

The Rookies coming up grew up playing NBA2k, not playground pickup.

I do not blame it on the NBA's rule changes. Players can still have desire and play with grit without having to foul.

Are the kids brought up by their parents in a privileged environment and not taught how to suck it up, swallow your pride, wipe the tear away and get the fuck back out there and give it your all?

I don't have kids, but I have many friends and family with kids, and I do see a sense of "pampering" or "participation awards" being handed out with little support/advise on how to power through the loss or tough game and do better, focus more; whatever the moment is calling for to turn the game or event around

I personally feel like it is a combination of pampering parents and technology/social media.

The pussification of the will/desire in the child growing up, combined with the increased distractions of technology and pressure of social media, and you have a lack of focus and a weakened will, that has no clue how to get back up when knocked down.

I hated the song, but have come to understand how powerful the hook is/was.





So few NBA players seem to have this concept, but you know who said it best?????

This guy right here.....




"It's not about how hard you can hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep on going."

Today's NBA only thinks about hitting and can't take a hit worth shit these days.....

What the fuck happened??????

Preach it brother. I feel you.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Could many players be over-training? Basketball players of today are heavier and more muscular, but that doesn't translate into toughness on the court. Buck Williams was a stud at 6' 8 220. Dennis Rodman was nicknamed the "worm" because he was so skinny. And I hear about guys weight training during the season, and think...wtf spend your energy on that when you're playing so many games. that weight training simply has very little benefit to basketball.

Especially in today's NBA when physicality is playing less and less of a role. I hear what your saying. A guy like Ed Davis, may look unmotivated, but in reality has more driver and desire than last year, but his extra muscle is just slowing him down and making it look like he is a step behind and doesn't care? You may be onto something here.

But lets take the two players you mentioned and compare them to the Blazers "same type of "Hustle" player in Ed Davis.

How many times have we seen Davis lay his body out there for a lose ball or rebound? Ive never seen him do this....

Or show emotion like this...

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think weight or muscle has to do with desire and effort.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Business decisions. As the amount of money in the league has increased, the motivation for players to make/succeed in the league has transitioned from "be the best" to "earn the most". Respect is now measured by contracts, and play is always with an eye toward the next one. Play like that which you describe is more likely to shorten a career than to enrich it, so the players don't see it as being in their best interests to do so.

 

[TBpup]

Society, family structure and the money. There has been a large trend toward the demasculinization of men starting in grade school. Behavior that is just boys being boys, being hyper, rough-housing, or almost any aggression is taught to be wrong and unacceptable. Often times two things can happen. Either the boy just becomes soft, or he can become a bully because he has no outlet for all that energy/hormones and doesn't know how/doesn't learn to deal with it. Also, many of these young boys can grow up in single family homes spending most of their time with their mom which takes away the day-to-day male/father influential side.

Lastly is the money. It has become so great that it takes away the drive for some of the players either because they are financially set without having to do anything more or perhaps they feel like they have 'made it' after years of growing up in lesser financial circumstances. Pro athletes have always made a good salary but the gap between them and the fan has increased exponentially. In some sports, pro athletes use to take other jobs in the off season just to make ends meet. That is certainly not required these days as the minimum salary is $874,000.

In the 1984/1985 season, the minimum salary was $65,000 while the median household income in the United States was $22,000. So an NBA player made 3x the median income of the 'average' household. Compare that to now where median household income is around $55,000 compared to the above minimum salary of $874,000. The NBA MINIMUM PLAYER makes 15x the median HOUSEHOLD salary.

There are other things that certainly go into it but those are big changes in our society over the last couple of decades.

 

[Minstrel]

Athletes work just as hard today as they did before, if not harder--the increased money only increases the incentive to work hard, because so much is at stake. Sports is now far more a year-round profession then it used to be. Sure, there was always a story about how Magic or Bird took the offseason to improve something, but now that's standard offseason behavior for most players, including year-round weight and cardio training. These days, it's weird when a player comes in "fat." In the '80s and '90s that was pretty typical and it was expected that they'd spend training camp, pre-season and the first weeks getting back into "NBA shape."

You're simply romanticizing the past, as every generation does ("in the old days, people were honest, understood the importance of hard work and had the proper respect--something's wrong with this younger generation"). I watched tons and tons of basketball in '80s and '90s, and I loved it, but players dogged it just as much in a random January game. Looking at highlights is obviously incredibly flawed for determining what the norm was...because they're highlights! No one's uploading to Youtube Michael Jordan going half-speed in February (which he famously did once he was established, to "save it for the playoffs").

There's nothing wrong with society, young people, parents today or the NBA--the product is as good as it's ever been and that's because the players work like demons and the coaches are more imaginative.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I didn't really see any more grit or hustle in that one video than I see today. FWIW.

 

[TBpup]

Players work out more and condition more but the toughness and hustle when they are actually on the court doesn't seem the same. Part of that is because of the way the game has changed and is called.....more whimpy.

 

[oldfisherman]

It all started when they made us stop hanging horse thieves without a formal trial.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

It all started when they made us stop hanging horse thieves without a formal trial.

I blame "safe spaces"........

 

[riverman]

I'm going to go ahead and blame Ron Artest at the Palace for the wimping down of rage in hoops

 

[Minstrel]

I'm going to go ahead and blame Ron Artest at the Palace for the wimping down of rage in hoops

Yeah, and all the hoopla surrounding lawless mobs with pitchforks is probably to blame for the wimping-up of reg'lar society. "Thick-skinned" didn't use to mean you could take criticism--it used to mean you bled less when stabbed in an argument. We're just not tough anymore.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I didn't really see any more grit or hustle in that one video than I see today. FWIW.

Are you taking into account this was ana exhibition game and not a regular season game? Compare this to the All Star games of today would be a proper comparison. Not regular season games of today.

Athletes work just as hard today as they did before, if not harder--the increased money only increases the incentive to work hard, because so much is at stake. Sports is now far more a year-round profession then it used to be. Sure, there was always a story about how Magic or Bird took the offseason to improve something, but now that's standard offseason behavior for most players, including year-round weight and cardio training. These days, it's weird when a player comes in "fat." In the '80s and '90s that was pretty typical and it was expected that they'd spend training camp, pre-season and the first weeks getting back into "NBA shape."

You're simply romanticizing the past, as every generation does ("in the old days, people were honest, understood the importance of hard work and had the proper respect--something's wrong with this younger generation"). I watched tons and tons of basketball in '80s and '90s, and I loved it, but players dogged it just as much in a random January game. Looking at highlights is obviously incredibly flawed for determining what the norm was...because they're highlights! No one's uploading to Youtube Michael Jordan going half-speed in February (which he famously did once he was established, to "save it for the playoffs").

There's nothing wrong with society, young people, parents today or the NBA--the product is as good as it's ever been and that's because the players work like demons and the coaches are more imaginative.

Again, read above. You are comparing players of regular season play to the players in the video I linked. the video I linked is an exhibition game. Its comparable to the All star game. Are you telling me you see as much hustle, desire, and grit and want to be the best in the all star game and it is no less competitive than the video I linked?

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'm going to go ahead and blame Ron Artest at the Palace for the wimping down of rage in hoops

No doubt he was at the forefront of the NBA looking at the physical aspect and trying to quell it.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Ron Artest going into the stands ended fighting for all intents and purposes, and AAU made it so these guys are all friends.

 

[chzbrgr]

if you could only watch one thing would you rather have steph curry's handle and jumper or the post play of Zach Randolf?

the league chose steph's handle and jumper

 

[Minstrel]

Again, read above. You are comparing players of regular season play to the players in the video I linked. the video I linked is an exhibition game. Its comparable to the All star game. Are you telling me you see as much hustle, desire, and grit and want to be the best in the all star game and it is no less competitive than the video I linked?

It's a single, random moment. Are you trying to suggest that that was how NBA players routinely played exhibition games back then? Because if so, that's very very wrong. Exhibition games, including the All-Star game, have never generally been played with "tru grit" then or now. I've definitely seen moments in today's game of a player beasting out in an exhibition game.

 

[WillG]

I agree, Orion, that todays NBA is not as tenacious as it used to be.

IMO a lot of it is the way it is called these days. Rarely do you ever see transition back and forth, up & down the court.
It's so frustrating as a viewer - waiting for the inevitable call each time down the court. (God forbid your a trailblazer player one of the leagues 'Anoited' ones!)

I don't know if 'Ticky tack' calling is mandated by the league to extend play time - and therefore ad revenue - or if it's to semi-manufacture points for certain 'Brand' players or to drive up scores??
Unfortunately it discourages grown men from competing at full contact but more importantly, detracts from the beauty of the game - It's free flowing nature.

Also, despite the athletes being more physically capable than ever before, I think they tend to play at 80%; they're playing with enough intensity to not be scrutinized too hard, but more importantly, so as to not get injured - they are playing for their next contract.

This is because of guaranteed contracts - and is probably my biggest beef with the modern NBA.
Watching millionaires 'Meh' it up on the court.

I'd LOVE to see a reality show with some NBA players that have to live off of working in a manufacturing line for a month or two, without the guarantee of keeping your income.

 

[Rhal]

I really think it just comes down to simple memory. We remember the games where players hustled, where players played there asses off and all the physicality of it. We dont' remember the games where players didn't hustle, the games where players didn't play their asses off and the games where both teams were just tired and going through the motions. You have many old school players admit they didn't play hard all the time and until the playoffs you got up for several teams but not every game.
Since we only remember the great games, Chicago vs Pistons, LA vs Boston ect we remember the old game as simply being better because we have forgotten all the boring aspects of the league and game while all the boring aspects of the game at the moment are constantly in our face.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It's a single, random moment. Are you trying to suggest that that was how NBA players routinely played exhibition games back then? Because if so, that's very very wrong. Exhibition games, including the All-Star game, have never generally been played with "tru grit" then or now. I've definitely seen moments in today's game of a player beasting out in an exhibition game.

I really think it just comes down to simple memory. We remember the games where players hustled, where players played there asses off and all the physicality of it. We dont' remember the games where players didn't hustle, the games where players didn't play their asses off and the games where both teams were just tired and going through the motions. You have many old school players admit they didn't play hard all the time and until the playoffs you got up for several teams but not every game.
Since we only remember the great games, Chicago vs Pistons, LA vs Boston ect we remember the old game as simply being better because we have forgotten all the boring aspects of the league and game while all the boring aspects of the game at the moment are constantly in our face.

Ahh, I see what you are saying.
Valid point.
I still remember much of the mediocre play back then still had hustle and the thought of mediocrity simply came to fruition because the game was a slower, half court based, defensive game. Now it is an offensive game, so when a game DOESN'T go into the 100's, it is thought of as poor, but might not really be the case.

And to the flipside, since we like scoring now, those are the clips of old that go up and there isn't much of great defensive play videos, because people want scoring. Many people don't view defensive games as quality games.

I still think its more of a combination of everything, because I do believe players are less engaged due to some aforementioned explanations based on Money and Social media. The money differentiation is huge too. Why risk diving for a ball and possibly ending your career?
What is better? a rookie contract and then nothing else, or a role players contract because you don't take risks? I think the money has changed the degree to which a player is inclined to go that extra mile. Now its about giving it a "best effort".
Ive been trying to hunt for a stat on how many loss balls are dove for in a season to try to do some sort of comparison, but it just seems like players back in the day would do ANYTHING to get at the ball. Today they are far and few between.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Lets put it this way.
Do you think there are more two way players in the league now compared to then?
The Same?
Or Less?

Seems to me EVERYONE was a two way player or a defensive specialist. Very few elite scorers that didn't play D. The Greyhound might be one of them that I recall that was pretty much a scorer only who had athleticism to play D but didn't.
Maybe Kiki was another., but they were few in my memory.

 

[Minstrel]

Lets put it this way.
Do you think there are more two way players in the league now compared to then?
The Same?
Or Less?

Seems to me EVERYONE was a two way player or a defensive specialist. Very few elite scorers that didn't play D. The Greyhound might be one of them that I recall that was pretty much a scorer only who had athleticism to play D but didn't.
Maybe Kiki was another., but they were few in my memory.

Depends on what you mean by "played D." James Worthy wasn't a great defender. Dominique Wilkins wasn't a great defender. Chris Mullin wasn't a great defender. Reggie Theus wasn't. Neither was Reggie Miller! I could list quite a few more offensive stars who were indifferent or poor defenders.

I think the NBA definitely has at least as many two-way players today, if not more. I think more of a premium is placed on length and athleticism on the defensive end today than in the past. Defensive schemes are more involved and sophisticated, by and large, and demand more of players.

It may appear that there's less defense these days due to all the scoring, but almost all of that is due to the "pace and space" revolution. Pace creates more possessions and thus more scoring, for the same defensive effort, and the move towards more efficient scoring (at the rim and from three-point range) has also helped pump scoring up. Neither of these things are related to players being worse defenders as a whole, it's just the evolution of the game.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Depends on what you mean by "played D." James Worthy wasn't a great defender. Dominique Wilkins wasn't a great defender. Chris Mullin wasn't a great defender. Reggie Theus wasn't. Neither was Reggie Miller! I could list quite a few more offensive stars who were indifferent or poor defenders.

I think the NBA definitely has at least as many two-way players today, if not more. I think more of a premium is placed on length and athleticism on the defensive end today than in the past. Defensive schemes are more involved and sophisticated, by and large, and demand more of players.

It may appear that there's less defense these days due to all the scoring, but almost all of that is due to the "pace and space" revolution. Pace creates more possessions and thus more scoring, for the same defensive effort, and the move towards more efficient scoring (at the rim and from three-point range) has also helped pump scoring up. Neither of these things are related to players being worse defenders as a whole, it's just the evolution of the game.

Okay. You almost got me. Now find me something that shows Dives/hustle players are more frequent in today's game than in the past, and I will concede that it is simply evolution of the game that creates such a mirage.

 

[Minstrel]

Okay. You almost got me. Now find me something that shows Dives/hustle players are more frequent in today's game than in the past, and I will concede that it is simply evolution of the game that creates such a mirage.

Hey, man, I'm not trying to convert you. I just don't agree with you.

 

[Sinobas]

Especially in today's NBA when physicality is playing less and less of a role. I hear what your saying. A guy like Ed Davis, may look unmotivated, but in reality has more driver and desire than last year, but his extra muscle is just slowing him down and making it look like he is a step behind and doesn't care? You may be onto something here.

But lets take the two players you mentioned and compare them to the Blazers "same type of "Hustle" player in Ed Davis.

How many times have we seen Davis lay his body out there for a lose ball or rebound? Ive never seen him do this....

Or show emotion like this...

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think weight or muscle has to do with desire and effort.

I don't know what the training regimes were like in prior eras, but now, it sounds like they go hard at practice and also weight train etc...that might be fine for a bench player, but sometimes it looks like they are out there conserving their energy and trying not to get hurt rather than really going after it.

Especially in today's NBA when physicality is playing less and less of a role. I hear what your saying. A guy like Ed Davis, may look unmotivated, but in reality has more driver and desire than last year, but his extra muscle is just slowing him down and making it look like he is a step behind and doesn't care? You may be onto something here.

But lets take the two players you mentioned and compare them to the Blazers "same type of "Hustle" player in Ed Davis.

How many times have we seen Davis lay his body out there for a lose ball or rebound? Ive never seen him do this....

Or show emotion like this...

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think weight or muscle has to do with desire and effort.

I think the 3pt shot has changed the game as well. Back in the 80s and early 90s, much fewer 3s were taken, teams were trying to get to the hoop or get the ball in the post to a skilled big man. Now offenses are centered around the 3pt shot. I think the nba really fell in love with it in the mid 90s when they experimented with moving the 3pt shot in. 3pt attempts really spiked and haven't looked back.

 

[jlprk]

You guys are just complainers. Poor teenage boys used to be short and thin. Poor teenage girls used to look like they were already pregnant. Now with free school lunches, teens are husky-boned. To be handsome, a guy used to be slim with wavy hair, but now he's supposed to be fat with a shaved head, and wearing shorts in the cold. A good lunch has ruined basketball, a game of quickness, not strength.

 

[Strenuus]

You guys are just complainers. Poor teenage boys used to be short and thin. Poor teenage girls used to look like they were already pregnant. Now with free school lunches, teens are husky-boned. To be handsome, a guy used to be slim with wavy hair, but now he's supposed to be fat with a shaved head, and wearing shorts in the cold. A good lunch has ruined basketball, a game of quickness, not strength.

lol.

 

[MarAzul]

the coaches are more imaginative.

 

[stampedehero]

Wimpy NBA. Superstars are created by magnificent sports attorneys. Owners are stupid to pay.