I've said it before and I'll say it again: CAP SPACE IS OVERRATED

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

Oooh, look at all this flexibility we have. whoop de fucking do.

Meanwhile:

Vince Carter to the Magic
Artest to the Lakers*
Shaq to the Cavs
Sheed to the Celtics*

*rumored to be happening, wouldn't be surprised if it goes down like this.


CP3 to the Blazers. Pritch, make it happen some how. Only way we compete on this stage and this level.




Meanwhile, we've built up and saved up to clear contracts for two years...for what?



If you build it, they will come (the guys to put you to the top). If you don't build it and just clear money what you are left with is paying an overescalated price and locking in a guy who recently played well in a contract year.

You build to win NOW, not in 2 years. Make splashes...now we're left in a pretty bad free agent pool looking at players we already have positions.

 

[Nikolokolus]

rabble rabble rabble

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

rabble rabble rabble

Its the goddamn truth! We need to land a top 10-15 player on the upswing on his career. Consolidation trade to make it happen. do it pritch. Or get Battier. That would be >>>>>>>>> Hedo.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Its the goddamn truth!

You're completely entitled to your opinion, but just how many pro/con Turkoglu threads do we need? (yes a I realize you are not explicitly focused on just Turkoglu in your post).

I just think people are jumping the gun on judging the likely Turk pickup when there's still a strong likelihood of a consolidation trade on its heels.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

You're completely entitled to your opinion, but just how many pro/con Turkoglu threads do we need? (yes a I realize you are not explicitly focused on just Turkoglu in your post).

I just think people are jumping the gun on judging the likely Turk pickup when there's still a strong likelihood of a consolidation trade on its heels.

This is more of a rant of saving cap space for 2 years when the FA pool doesn't have an actual big-money target (i.e. LeBronze).

 

[alex42083]

Well.. building teams through free agency will never turn you into a winner. You end up overpaying for guys, unless it's once-in-a-lifetime player like LeBron. But banking on that by freeing up cap space is a real long shot for a lot of NBA teams.

Most championship teams build through the draft, and get their core players out of the draft, while adding role players through free agency.

 

[rocketeer]

Its the goddamn truth! We need to land a top 10-15 player on the upswing on his career. Consolidation trade to make it happen. do it pritch. Or get Battier. That would be >>>>>>>>> Hedo.

the funny thing is, of all those big name guys you have moving, i only think one really helps their team(and that could even be questionable).

vince is a lateral move for orlando especially since they lose lee and hedo.
shaq to cleveland doesn't really help either. for all the positives(post offense) there are negative(defense, clogging the lane).
artest to the lakers is meaningless if they don't bring odom back, and he doesn't fit as well as ariza anyway, so i don't see a real improvement there.

sheed to the celtics(if it happens) is the only one i'd call a real upgrade but that could change if sheed stays content just to coast through games. he doesn't help them all that much if he takes 45% of his shots from 3 point range again.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

Well.. building teams through free agency will never turn you into a winner. You end up overpaying for guys, unless it's once-in-a-lifetime player like LeBron. But banking on that by freeing up cap space is a real long shot for a lot of NBA teams.

Most championship teams build through the draft, and get their core players out of the draft, while adding role players through free agency.

Which championship team has built through the draft? I guess Orlando with Dwight, then adding Rashard Lewis..but that was a more freak occurance than anything IMO. Spurs too I suppose but they are run like Clockwork and it was a freak occurance they even landed Duncan due to Robinson's one year injury.

Championship teams are built on blockbuster trades. Shaq to the Lakers. Shaq to Miami. Gasol to LA. KG to Boston.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Its the goddamn truth! We need to land a top 10-15 player on the upswing on his career. Consolidation trade to make it happen. do it pritch. Or get Battier. That would be >>>>>>>>> Hedo.

LOL.......all that and then you throw out Battier? Fuck

 

[huevonkiller]

the funny thing is, of all those big name guys you have moving, i only think one really helps their team(and that could even be questionable).

vince is a lateral move for orlando especially since they lose lee and hedo.
shaq to cleveland doesn't really help either. for all the positives(post offense) there are negative(defense, clogging the lane).
artest to the lakers is meaningless if they don't bring odom back, and he doesn't fit as well as ariza anyway, so i don't see a real improvement there.

sheed to the celtics(if it happens) is the only one i'd call a real upgrade but that could change if sheed stays content just to coast through games. he doesn't help them all that much if he takes 45% of his shots from 3 point range again.

Ariza has struggled against bigger bodies. That and how much more talent Artest has plus how he could look better playing here are enough reasons to sign him.

 

[alex42083]

Which championship team has built through the draft? I guess Orlando with Dwight, then adding Rashard Lewis..but that was a more freak occurance than anything IMO. Spurs too I suppose but they are run like Clockwork and it was a freak occurance they even landed Duncan due to Robinson's one year injury.

Championship teams are built on blockbuster trades. Shaq to the Lakers. Shaq to Miami. Gasol to LA. KG to Boston.

Lakers: Kobe
Spurs: Duncan and Parker
Houston: Olajuwon, Horry and Cassell
Lakers: Magic
Celtics: Bird and McHale
Bulls: Jordan and Pippen
Heat: Wade

All homegrown players that teams have had since they were rookies. And then you add role players through free agency.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

Lakers: Kobe
Spurs: Duncan and Parker
Houston: Olajuwon, Horry and Cassell
Lakers: Magic
Celtics: Bird and McHale
Bulls: Jordan and Pippen
Heat: Wade

All homegrown players that teams have had since they were rookies. And then you add role players through free agency.

Wow, are we still in the 80s. The 90-2000s teams you mentioned....Duncan was only in SA because D-Rob was out for an ENTIRE year and they sucked shit. And Wade's Heat was only good when Shaq went to Miami..they aren't contenders anymore and probably won't be unless another lopsided trade comes their way.

 

[rocketeer]

Which championship team has built through the draft? I guess Orlando with Dwight, then adding Rashard Lewis..but that was a more freak occurance than anything IMO. Spurs too I suppose but they are run like Clockwork and it was a freak occurance they even landed Duncan due to Robinson's one year injury.

Championship teams are built on blockbuster trades. Shaq to the Lakers. Shaq to Miami. Gasol to LA. KG to Boston.

spurs got duncan, manu, and parker through the draft. that seemed to workout alright for them.

really, just look through all the playoff teams from last season. 13 of the 16 drafted their best player(14 of the 16 if you count paul pierce for the celtics since garnett was out).

spurs - duncan, parker, manu
rockets - yao
mavs - dirk, howard
blazers - roy, aldridge
lakers - kobe
nuggets - carmelo
hornets - paul
jazz - deron
sixers - igoudala
cavs - lebron
magic - dwight
heat - wade
bulls - rose, gordon

the exceptions are the hawks(who still drafted josh smith, marvin williams, al horford), celtics(rondo, pierce, and perkins from the draft), and detroit(stucky and prince).

in general the foundations of good teams are built through the draft. the extra pieces (if) needed are added through free agency and trade.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

Of course, but we already have our guys from the drafts....then we essentially sat still and waited for cap space for two years instead of being agressive in getting more good talent on the team.

Most of the guys that put a team over tend to be added through trades, not through cap space flexibility. That's how LOTTO teams try to build but then they overpay for players.

You get better by trading EXPIRING CONTRACTS (yeah, we had a HUGE one) or consolidating young talent to a team with a superstar that is not getting anywhere and wants to save money. Not by clearing 10 million in cap space in 2 years and hoping to roll the dice with free agency.

I'm not disatissfied with our current team, I'm just saying the whole plan of "clearing cap space for a 09 Plan" is pretty bullshit, which is why I was NEVER a fan of this 09 Plan.

 

[Denny Crane]

Well.. building teams through free agency will never turn you into a winner. You end up overpaying for guys, unless it's once-in-a-lifetime player like LeBron. But banking on that by freeing up cap space is a real long shot for a lot of NBA teams.

Most championship teams build through the draft, and get their core players out of the draft, while adding role players through free agency.

I don't think this is particularly true. Most teams that win do so via trades.

Which of Rip, Billups, Wallce, Wallace were drafted by Detroit?

Shaq's won two championships with teams he wasn't drafted by.

The Lakers just won with Odom, Ariza, and Gasol as key players.

Boston? KG and Allen certainly weren't drafted by Boston.

&c

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

I don't think this is particularly true. Most teams that win do so via trades.

Which of Rip, Billups, Wallce, Wallace were drafted by Detroit?

Shaq's won two championships with teams he wasn't drafted by.

The Lakers just won with Odom, Ariza, and Gasol as key players.

Boston? KG and Allen certainly weren't drafted by Boston.

&c

And none of those guys signed as Free Agents (well maybe some Detroit guys did) or were the product of cap space flexibility. Alot of them were dumped by teams IN ORDER to save money. Saving money for cap space is what losing teams do. winning teams trade their contracts.

 

[rocketeer]

Ariza has struggled against bigger bodies. That and how much more talent Artest has plus how he could look better playing here are enough reasons to sign him.

the more talented that artest seemingly has isn't really used all that well. talentwise he's definitely an upgrade, but ariza fits the team much better. i think in that end that balances out to make it basically a lateral move.

 

[B-Roy]

Our success (championship wise) depends on Oden.

Hedo is just a good piece that allows us to reach that window faster.

 

[Denny Crane]

To be fair, there just aren't that many FA transfers in general.

Rashard Lewis certainly helped the Magic, and Ben Wallace actually helped the Bulls for a season.

Off the top of my head, there aren't any other frontline FAs who changed teams that I can think of. Elton Brand? Baron Davis? Who else?

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

the more talented that artest seemingly has isn't really used all that well. talentwise he's definitely an upgrade, but ariza fits the team much better. i think in that end that balances out to make it basically a lateral move.

One of the Lakers weaknesses was an extra scoring threat when Kobe and Gasol sat out. Ariza only seems valuable because he had a great playoff run in a contract year...this makes them more dangerous than last IMO.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

To be fair, there just aren't that many FA transfers in general.

Rashard Lewis certainly helped the Magic, and Ben Wallace actually helped the Bulls for a season.

Off the top of my head, there aren't any other frontline FAs who changed teams that I can think of. Elton Brand? Baron Davis? Who else?

How many of them impact a team to win a ring?

 

[alex42083]

Wow, are we still in the 80s. The 90-2000s teams you mentioned....Duncan was only in SA because D-Rob was out for an ENTIRE year and they sucked shit. And Wade's Heat was only good when Shaq went to Miami..they aren't contenders anymore and probably won't be unless another lopsided trade comes their way.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you that cap space is overrated if you're looking to get your core players through free agency. That's why Detroit is going to suck, IMO, since they spent a bunch on Gordon and Villanueva.

But that's why I think the Blazers have done this the right way: get your top 3 core players through good drafting and scouting, and then add a real nice complementary part through free agency, and get some other role players through either trade or free agency.

It's pretty hard to land top 10-15 players who are on the upswing.. not many of those lying around available.

 

[rocketeer]

Of course, but we already have our guys from the drafts....then we essentially sat still and waited for cap space for two years instead of being agressive in getting more good talent on the team.

Most of the guys that put a team over tend to be added through trades, not through cap space flexibility. That's how LOTTO teams try to build but then they overpay for players.

You get better by trading EXPIRING CONTRACTS (yeah, we had a HUGE one) or consolidating young talent to a team with a superstar that is not getting anywhere and wants to save money. Not by clearing 10 million in cap space in 2 years and hoping to roll the dice with free agency.

I'm not disatissfied with our current team, I'm just saying the whole plan of "clearing cap space for a 09 Plan" is pretty bullshit, which is why I was NEVER a fan of this 09 Plan.

so basically you want the blazers to make a trade for a huge name? you realize that a lot of those don't workout right? shaq didn't win any championships with the suns. kidd is leading a dallas team with no future.

with a team like the blazers that has a lot of talent, making no move is better than making the wrong move.

 

[Denny Crane]

How many of them impact a team to win a ring?

Derek Fisher was a FA signed by the Lakers. Started every game he could and made dagger/killer shots in the playoffs & finals.

 

[Minstrel]

There's no one way to build a championship team. The common denominator is, obviously, high-level talents. That's what matters. If you're lucky enough to get high-level talents in the draft, great. Most teams don't have the hit rate on draft picks to do that. The 1990s Bulls did. The Spurs did. This Blazers team did, IMO. If you don't land a foundation through the draft, you need to make brilliant trades and/or free agent signings. It's very rare to land a championship cornerstone in free agency, though. So it comes down to the teams who have the brilliant draft picks or brilliant trades, or some combination thereof.

As far as I'm concerned, the Blazers have landed championship-caliber talents in the draft (Roy, Oden and Aldridge) and they've landed several players who can be very good complementary players or better (Bayless, Batum, Fernandez). So at this point, it's not that helpful, IMO, to compare the Blazers to how other teams were built. Each team is built slightly differently, but the commonality is acquiring talents that you can't simply plan for. I think Portland has done that. If Pritchard can put in place the right role-players around those talents, Portland should be championship-caliber.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I do remember as far back as the Zach trade that there were a certain group of posters who said cap space was overrated. A lot of moves have been made with the idea of cap flexibility for this summer and I will recognize the group that said cap space was overrated may have a point.

If the arguement for every trade deadline that passed or potential trade turned down (remember the famous charging order this year was let's not trade, see what we got with this team and make adjustments this summer) was it preserves cap flexibility . . . well if the argument for not taking action was it will get us Turk in the summer of 2009, I don't think that would have sounded as good as it gives us cap flexibility in 2009.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

so basically you want the blazers to make a trade for a huge name? you realize that a lot of those don't workout right? shaq didn't win any championships with the suns. kidd is leading a dallas team with no future.

with a team like the blazers that has a lot of talent, making no move is better than making the wrong move.

But you take the risk. Something like trading RELC is little risk, high reward. Letting it walk is unforgivable.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

I do remember as far back as the Zach trade that there were a certain group of posters who said cap space was overrated. A lot of moves have been made with the idea of cap flexibility for this summer and I will recognize the group that said cap space was overrated may have a point.

If the arguement for every trade deadline that passed or potential trade turned down (remember the famous charging order this year was let's not trade, see what we got with this team and make adjustments this summer) was it preserves cap flexibility . . . well if the argument for not taking action was it will get us Turk in the summer of 2009, I don't think that would have sounded as good as it gives us cap flexibility in 2009.

THAT WAS ME. I COINED THE TERM IMAGINARY CAP SPACE BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WILL GET YOU UNTIL THE MARKET PRESENTS ITSELF.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

THAT WAS ME. I COINED THE TERM IMAGINARY CAP SPACE BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WILL GET YOU UNTIL THE MARKET PRESENTS ITSELF.

Yea I was giving you credit for it . . . you wern't the only one who was saying cap space was overrated or whatever the others were saying. I believe it was stomp and BNM who were echoing your thoughts . . . but hard to remember . . . that was many beers ago.

Whats with the caps?

 

[Drttimmy]

This franchise has been building-up free agency and it's promises of overnight improvement for 3-4 years now. At first it was just a diversion tactic: shut the fans up and give them something to look forward to while suffering thru the Telfair years. Then after we drafted some cornerstone players, the marketing buzz became obtaining that last franchise player to help take Roy/Aldridge over the top. This is while we were still batting around illusion of signing Paul, Williams or even Kobe.

After the media figured out that wouldnt be possible, I noticed Pritchard remarking how Allen wanted to play with free agency because he hasnt had extensive chances to while owner. Fair enough. So, basically free agency's importance, as it's been billed by the media and team, has downgraded from crucial to elevating to curious dabbling over the last 4 years.

Being responsible with salaries is important, but pinning hopes into building your team thru free agency signings is a crapshoot and in my opinion overrated as a team builder. Arguments could be made that none of the top free agents this year would even help the team. I tend to agree with HUSTLA, if thats the position he's coming from.