Just for shits & giggles....

[Mattingly23NY]

.
.
.
1. "Martin is an exceptional offensive catcher".

2. "I'm not trying to convince people that Martin has been one of the TOP catchers in baseball..."

Senor, since you emptied out our Dos Equis stock, may I offer you a Tequila Slammer....its on the house literally

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Last but not least, if that were true backhanded sarcasm, I never would of said: "with all due respect". When I 1st addressed you...

"You must be from New York"- (John Lithgow's classic line in 'Terms of Endearment'), "why yes sir I sure as Hell am, what's it to ya"......

 

[Rick2583]

Senor, since you emptied out our Dos Equis stock, may I offer you a Tequila Slammer....its on the house literally

Not only have I never heard of this beer but I've never even known anyone who's drank it.

 

[blgridesagain]

Why thanks for 'helping me out' tho' I don't need the help. (now is that backhand sarcasm coming from you this time?). Mine wasn't sarcasm, rather the truth brother, we all make errors, now and then, or forget to post everything in our heads. Just giving you some lee-way, for error, since you Didn't mention Joe. I figured as much, you simply forgot about Mauer or weren't counting him in, since he's not currently catching. Now is that sarcasm, or simple room for error, call it breathing space, I never meant sarcasm, not now, not then. Sorry if you felt as much, that's merely who I am, and how I communicate.....

A very wise man once told me and a group of others: "Don't ever take this Life personal", the man speaking won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1963. LOL- I bet you weren't yet a twinkle, in your Daddy's eye then. (Don't take that as sarcasm), as with others, I'd of said, "you were still shitting in your diapers then"....

_________________________________


lol


So Matt, how about my claim that Martin has been a GOOD and exceptional offensive catcher for his career (beginning in 2006)?

Sure, there may be catchers having better seasons this year and/or last year...and/or the year before....but for the span of Martin's career....I'm still waiting to see the list of all those catchers who have been better OFFENSIVELY for approx the same time period as Martin has been.

I've already established Martin has been every bit as good as Molina has been for both of their careers. I can't predict what the next couple few years are going to be like.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Not only have I never heard of this beer but I've never even known anyone who's drank it.

Really Rick, you've not seen Dos Equis at the market? Of course here in the United States of Calexico, Mexi-Cali, Mexican beers are sold on the same rate most American beers are.

Dos Equis makes on of the richest Xmas Time Holiday Beers, I've ever drank, almost purple in color, called "Noche Buena", these days, I have to drive further south to find it during the Holidays. Yet, its as common as water is in Tucson of course....The US of Mejico...! At least 5 million Illegals would like to think soooo....!

 

[Mattingly23NY]

_________________________________


lol


So Matt, how about my claim that Martin has been a GOOD and exceptional offensive catcher for his career (beginning in 2006)?

Sure, there are catchers having better season's this year and/or last year...and/or the year before....but for the span of Martin's career....I'm still waiting to see the list of all those catchers who have been better OFFENSIVELY for approx the same time period as Martin has been.

I've already established Martin has been every bit as good as Molina has been for both of their careers. I can't predict what the next couple few years are going to be like.

No doubt Mar-tan has been a good catcher, and has improved his defense (tho' he won that Gold Glove in 007), Honestly, I was surprised the Bums let him go. The only reasons I could figure (since the Bums never really said why they wouldn't tender him a FA offer); was perhaps, we were seeing a small decline in his defense, and moreso in his offense. About all we could figure here in Tinsel Town. Then, Mar-tan took less pay the 1st year to play in Pinstripes. I expected alot more out of Russell in NY. I said way back then, Russell would thrive in the AL, he didn't, and I was hung out to dry, and respectfully so, when I said, "He could possibly hit 30 HR's and have 100 RBI's in NY and the AL". I made a fool out of myself.

In all fairness, tho' Mar-tan has found his Defensive and Offensive stride with the Bucs. No doubt he's having a fine year, and I hope he continues to thrive, in future years.....but I'd never say exceptional. Ya' gotta remember I'm an old man, and exceptional Catchers to me, are mostly in the past. Those greats like Bench, Munson, Berra, Campanella, et al....

I also feel that Catching Offense as a whole had turned downards a trend, an indictment of MLB in general.

Tho' ya' gotta' also remember, I can't put Mar-tan down, he's from Montreal, and so are my Canuck Fore-Fathers....we take care of our own, and others too, unlike many sociological groups.

 

[blgridesagain]

162 game averages, it doesn't get any better for Yaddy if we use seasonal averages.

Molina- HR 12, RBI 72, SB 5, BA .284, OBP .339, SLG% .402, OPS .741

Martin- HR 16, RBI 75, SB 13, BA .258, OBP .355, SLG% ..398, OPS .753


Alright, step right up....we've had Molina.....Posey and Mauer.
I'm anxious to see ALL OF THESE CATCHERS who have been better than Martin offensively for the years he's been around (2006-2014) - give or take 2 or so years.

Catchers who have been in the league for 3 or so seasons just won't cut it.
I'm talking about a sizeable career - none of this Johnny-come-lately stuff.

I've taken some abuse over this, now It's time for whomever to put up- or shut up.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Two words:

Rich Gedman

Now wasn't that a stud....LMAO...

Of course I'm just kidding, I hope ya'll know that...

Gedman is the barometer of which all horrible catchers and/or Charlie Lau disciples are measured....

 

[Mattingly23NY]

162 game averages, it doesn't get any better for Yaddy if we use seasonal averages.

Molina- HR 12, RBI 72, SB 5, BA .284, OBP .339, SLG% .402, OPS .741

Martin- HR 16, RBI 75, SB 13, BA .258, OBP .355, SLG% ..398, OPS .753


Alright, step right up....we've had Molina.....Posey and Mauer.
I'm anxious to see ALL OF THESE CATCHERS who have been better than Martin offensively for the years he's been around (2006-2014) - give or take 2 or so years.

Catchers who have been in the league for 3 or so seasons just won't cut it.
I'm talking about a sizeable career - none of this Johnny-come-lately stuff.

I've taken some abuse over this, now It's time for whomever to put up- or shut up.

By using the criteria from 06-014, your refining this too narrow. If you include players who played a full career, with some of those years falling in the same era, yet not the entire era, your not going to get much in return. Keep in mind, your also asking for Offense numbers only, which I would say, you should also be looking at any Catcher's Defensive skills, as importantly if not moreso important in respect to the position.

Offensively:

NL- You already have Posey and Molina. Add McCann, and In the same era's eclipsing across those years, you have the Buc's prior catcher, Kendall.

AL: Mauer, Pierzynski, Posada, and Avila, now how about Salvador Perez? or-Wieters?


***If you want to look at Defense as well, which IS essential despite your insistence to make your point on Offense only.....,hell, I'll give you that much for Offense, less those noted. BUT- you can't define a Catcher by OFFENSE ONLY: but then you already know as much. Is this only about offense only to prove Martin's worth, cuz if it is, then its a lopsided look at Catcher's wouldn't you say? Without any respect to a back-stops job?

Ya' gotta' have a solid backstop, and all these Active Catchers have outperformed Mar-tan defensively: (one reason IMHO, the Bums didn't re-sign him): -

Snyder
Ianetta
Pierzynski
Ruiz
Avila
Hanigan
Y. Molina
J. Molina
Torrealba
Lucroy
Suzuki
Soto and even believe it or not
V-Mart

All have active better defensive fielding percentages than R. Mar-tan, who ranks #16 on the Active Fielding Pctg. of Catchers....but you don't want a defensive stat, why NOT????? (only to prove a point via offense only).....? REF: *** para: noted aboveThat's 3/4ths of a Catcher's Function. Another reason Russell wasn't re-signed IMO in L.A. he had a helluva time throwing anyone out. You want those numbers too? (But like I said, the Teacher doesn't allow others to do your homework) .... LOL...

 

[Mattingly23NY]

No, wait...lets talk.....how about a coffee?

Does Guinness make coffee?

maybe if its boiled, looks like coffee....!

 

[blgridesagain]

By using the criteria from 06-014, your refining this too narrow. If you include players who played a full career, with some of those years falling in the same era, yet not the entire era, your not going to get much in return. Keep in mind, your also asking for Offense numbers only, which I would say, you should also be looking at any Catcher's Defensive skills, as importantly if not moreso important in respect to the position.

Offensively:

NL- You already have Posey and Molina. Add McCann, and In the same era's eclipsing across those years, you have the Buc's prior catcher, Kendall.

AL: Mauer, Pierzynski, Posada, and Avila, now how about Salvador Perez? or-Wieters?


***If you want to look at Defense as well, which IS essential despite your insistence to make your point on Offense only.....,hell, I'll give you that much for Offense, less those noted. BUT- you can't define a Catcher by OFFENSE ONLY: but then you already know as much. Is this only about offense only to prove Martin's worth, cuz if it is, then its a lopsided look at Catcher's wouldn't you say? Without any respect to a back-stops job?

Ya' gotta' have a solid backstop, and all these Active Catchers have outperformed Mar-tan defensively: (one reason IMHO, the Bums didn't re-sign him): -

Snyder
Ianetta
Pierzynski
Ruiz
Avila
Hanigan
Y. Molina
J. Molina
Torrealba
Lucroy
Suzuki
Soto and even believe it or not
V-Mart

All have active better defensive fielding percentages than R. Mar-tan, who ranks #16 on the Active Fielding Pctg. of Catchers....but you don't want a defensive stat, why NOT????? (only to prove a point via offense only).....? REF: *** para: noted aboveThat's 3/4ths of a Catcher's Function. Another reason Russell wasn't re-signed IMO in L.A. he had a helluva time throwing anyone out. You want those numbers too? (But like I said, the Teacher doesn't allow others to do your homework) .... LOL...

________________________________

I hear ya about defense and the catcher's position but the Martin thing began when I responded to Rick's thread starter about ex-Yankees and Martin was on the list....I mentioned Martin (post #7) by saying he has been, and is a good exceptional offensive catcher. You did bring up a couple of catchers who were/are good offensively.

A.J. Pierzynski for sure has been a better offensive catcher than Martin.
I think we'll find that there aren't as many catchers as we thought who can clearly be called better than Martin for the years covering his career. I remembered his days with the Dodgers when he had very fine years and he did put up good power numbers with the Yanks for a couple of years and is currently having a very good season.

 

[blgridesagain]

By using the criteria from 06-014, your refining this too narrow. If you include players who played a full career, with some of those years falling in the same era, yet not the entire era, your not going to get much in return. Keep in mind, your also asking for Offense numbers only, which I would say, you should also be looking at any Catcher's Defensive skills, as importantly if not moreso important in respect to the position.

Offensively:

NL- You already have Posey and Molina. Add McCann, and In the same era's eclipsing across those years, you have the Buc's prior catcher, Kendall.

AL: Mauer, Pierzynski, Posada, and Avila, now how about Salvador Perez? or-Wieters?


***If you want to look at Defense as well, which IS essential despite your insistence to make your point on Offense only.....,hell, I'll give you that much for Offense, less those noted. BUT- you can't define a Catcher by OFFENSE ONLY: but then you already know as much. Is this only about offense only to prove Martin's worth, cuz if it is, then its a lopsided look at Catcher's wouldn't you say? Without any respect to a back-stops job?

Ya' gotta' have a solid backstop, and all these Active Catchers have outperformed Mar-tan defensively: (one reason IMHO, the Bums didn't re-sign him): -

Snyder
Ianetta
Pierzynski
Ruiz
Avila
Hanigan
Y. Molina
J. Molina
Torrealba
Lucroy
Suzuki
Soto and even believe it or not
V-Mart

All have active better defensive fielding percentages than R. Mar-tan, who ranks #16 on the Active Fielding Pctg. of Catchers....but you don't want a defensive stat, why NOT????? (only to prove a point via offense only).....? REF: *** para: noted aboveThat's 3/4ths of a Catcher's Function. Another reason Russell wasn't re-signed IMO in L.A. he had a helluva time throwing anyone out. You want those numbers too? (But like I said, the Teacher doesn't allow others to do your homework) .... LOL...

________________________________

I hear ya about defense and the catcher's position but the Martin thing began when I responded to Rick's thread starter about ex-Yankees and Martin was on the list....I mentioned Martin (post #7) by saying he has been, and is a good exceptional offensive catcher. You did bring up a couple of catchers who were/are good offensively.

A.J. Pierzynski for sure has been a better offensive catcher than Martin.
I think we'll find that there aren't as many catchers as we thought who can clearly be called better than Martin for the years covering his career.

 

[Rick2583]

162 game averages, it doesn't get any better for Yaddy if we use seasonal averages.

Molina- HR 12, RBI 72, SB 5, BA .284, OBP .339, SLG% .402, OPS .741

Martin- HR 16, RBI 75, SB 13, BA .258, OBP .355, SLG% ..398, OPS .753


Alright, step right up....we've had Molina.....Posey and Mauer.
I'm anxious to see ALL OF THESE CATCHERS who have been better than Martin offensively for the years he's been around (2006-2014) - give or take 2 or so years.

Catchers who have been in the league for 3 or so seasons just won't cut it.
I'm talking about a sizeable career - none of this Johnny-come-lately stuff.

I've taken some abuse over this, now It's time for whomever to put up- or shut up.

Miquel Montero..............18 / 81 / 265.......344 OBP. .424 SLG% & 768 OPS
Jonathan Lucroy............16 / 79 / 284.......340 OBP, 439 SLG%. & 779 OPS
Brian McCann................26 / 96 / 273.......344 OBP, 466 SLG%, & 810 OPS

 

[Mattingly23NY]

________________________________

I hear ya about defense and the catcher's position but the Martin thing began when I responded to Rick's thread starter about ex-Yankees and Martin was on the list....I mentioned Martin (post #7) by saying he has been, and is a good exceptional offensive catcher. You did bring up a couple of catchers who were/are good offensively.

A.J. Pierzynski for sure has been a better offensive catcher than Martin.
I think we'll find that there aren't as many catchers as we thought who can clearly be called better than Martin for the years covering his career.

Ah I got it....

 

[Rick2583]

Ah I got it....

You can't say for the same years covering 2006-2014. I mean while Martin might be say 23-30 years old, another catcher might be 32-39 years old during those years.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

You can't say for the same years covering 2006-2014. I mean while Martin might be say 23-30 years old, another catcher might be 32-39 years old during those years.

I addressed as much, when I said prior- "By using the criteria from 06-014, your refining this too narrow. If you include players who played a full career, with some of those years falling in the same era, yet not the entire era, your not going to get much in return".....!

Ah you got it

 

[yankeesince59]

...lol...just because there are not a bunch of catchers who are better than Martin offensively, does not by default, make him "exceptional"...the fact is that out of the hundreds or even thousands of catchers who have ever played the game, only a handful were truly exceptional as far as hitters.

...change the subject and change the criteria all you want but .258 .355 .398 .753 is not exceptional.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

...lol...just because there are not a bunch of catchers who are better than Martin offensively, does not by default, make him "exceptional"...the fact is that out of the hundreds or even thousands of catchers who have ever played the game, only a handful were truly exceptional as far as hitters.

...change the subject and change the criteria all you want but .258 .355 .398 .753 is not exceptional.

Amen, It's almost futile to think of the last exceptional Catcher I've seen play in MLB. Of course Johnny Bench comes to the forefront, as does Berra, Elston Howard, Roy Campanella, hell even Munson played with a fire and grit, most Catcher's lack these days.

The list below, is of All Time Defensive Catcher's: Benitio Santiago, heck even Bob Boone, was mentioned by Ricky Henderson, as the #1 hardest Catcher for Ricky to steal a bag off of. Ricky mentioned one thing Boone did, few bothered to do, was throw back to 1st base, during a Henderson lead off from 1st. Molina plays the same way....with grit, and class...so do a few others....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/Gm_c_career.shtml

Molina, Mauer, Posey, are/were the epitome of today's exceptional catchers, from both sides of the game. Hell, I even would so far as to say, Posada, was an exceptional Catcher.....no problem there, with Jorge, Hip Hip Jorge...!

One day, scouts say, and I as much believe Salvador Perez may reach exceptional status

 

[blgridesagain]

Amen, It's almost futile to think of the last exceptional Catcher I've seen play in MLB. Of course Johnny Bench comes to the forefront, as does Berra, Elston Howard, Roy Campanella, hell even Munson played with a fire and grit, most Catcher's lack these days.
___________________________________

Now we're talking about GREAT Hall of Famers, MVP winners and excellent all-around catchers.
And don't forget Gary Carter and Pudge Rodriguez

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Amen, It's almost futile to think of the last exceptional Catcher I've seen play in MLB. Of course Johnny Bench comes to the forefront, as does Berra, Elston Howard, Roy Campanella, hell even Munson played with a fire and grit, most Catcher's lack these days.
___________________________________

Now we're talking about GREAT Hall of Famers, MVP winners and excellent all-around catchers.
And don't forget Gary Carter and Pudge Rodriguez

Nah, I haven't, thats why I put the URL link up above, both Pudge and Gary are in the top 5 all time, in defensive play on that list.....kudo's, those were some spectacular moments/years from all those greats....!

 

[Rick2583]

What no love for Benito Santiago? He was an excellent defensive catcher.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

What no love for Benito Santiago? He was an excellent defensive catcher.

Benito, I meant to mention, tho' he didn't play in the time frame brides was looking for....

However the ROY, solid defensive and offensive Catcher, (along with a nice long consecutive game hitting streak) is ranked #10 on the All Time best Defensive Catchers, (link noted in my last post)...!

 

[blgridesagain]

Benito, I meant to mention, tho' he didn't play in the time frame brides was looking for....

However the ROY, solid defensive and offensive Catcher, (along with a nice long consecutive game hitting streak) is ranked #10 on the All Time best Defensive Catchers, (link noted in my last post)...!

_______________________________

What type of "defensive" list is it?

Jim Sunberg had a career 41% CS% which was 6 points higher than the league average for the years he caught.
.993 FLD% League .985
Thurman Munson was a Gold Glover and had a career 44% CS% which was also 6 points higher than league average, and he was a very good hitter.
.982 FLD% League .984

Benito Santiago, threw out ATT base stealers from his knees...35% of the time, 4 points higher than league average.
Had a career .702 OPS.
FLD% .987 League .989

Carlton Fisk? 34% CS%, below league average.
FLD% .988 League .986

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Honestly not much of a list: only the quantity of games played Defensively as a Catcher....

better metrics are found here: incl. Lifetime Career Leaders of all positions. With Catchers you will find Fldg. Pctg. Leaders, Assists, Errors, or about any other metric/list of Catcher Feats, for about any and everything under the sun. Including of course one of the most important Catcher stats: CS....beware, as this site, confuses CS by a Catcher vs baserunners, with Catcher's who were caught stealing. The latter IMO, is a non-value added stat. Who ever expects a Catcher to steal bases? Why even have a stat as such. Guess someone is justifying their own job in creating stats, when we see, what pctg., a catcher gets caught stealing. Versus one of the most important Catcher Stats, (the pctg. a C, guns down potential base stealers)....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/

(scroll down to catchers)

Fielding pctg: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/fielding_perc_c_career.shtml

and there are other stats included: