Politics Keep the Electoral College: Our view

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Denny Crane

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...-hillary-clinton-editorials-debates/93609562/

A national popular vote would bring its own set of problems.

With Hillary Clinton more than 300,000 votes ahead of President-elect Donald Trump in the popular vote count as of Thursday, calls have already begun to ditch the Electoral College system enshrined in the Constitution for choosing presidents.

If Clinton’s lead holds, she would be the second contender in modern times — joining fellow Democrat Al Gore in 2000 — to win the popular vote but lose the White House by failing to amass the 270 electoral votes needed to capture it.

Filmmaker and progressive activist Michael Moore colorfully summed up Democratic feelings about Trump's victory: "The only reason he's president is because of an arcane, insane 18th century idea called the Electoral College."

But those clamoring to dump the system cobbled together by the nation’s Founders — which gives each state as many electoral votes as it has members of Congress — should be careful what they wish for. Adopting a national popular vote would trade one set of problems for another.

Electoral College opponents argue that the system pushes candidates to ignore states that Republicans or Democrats consider sure things and focus on a dozen battleground states during the campaigns. But Tuesday's election showed that the Electoral College map is more fluid than many people believed. Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, considered reliably Democratic, swung Republican.

If the national popular vote were the ultimate decider, candidates would gravitate toward the voter-rich big cities and their suburbs and ignore everyone else. If candidates felt obliged to blanket the entire country with visits and advertising, it would set off a scramble for even more campaign money, leaving candidates more beholden to special interests.

A popular vote contest involving multiple candidates could produce a winner with, say, only 35% of the vote, provoking an outcry to create a runoff process involving the top two vote-getters. And if the U.S. popular vote were so close that a nationwide recount were needed, the process could turn into a nightmare dwarfing the Florida fiasco of 2000.

For those seeking change, there are two avenues: Amend the Constitution, which is extraordinarily difficult, or do an end run around the Constitution, which a group called National Popular Vote has been trying. The group seeks to pass state laws mandating that the states' electoral votes be cast for whoever wins the U.S. popular vote. Ten states and Washington, D.C., representing 165 electoral votes, have signed on, and it has been most popular in states with Democrat-controlled legislatures. The compact would take effect when it's ratified by states representing at least 270 electoral votes.

This scheme sounds clever, but dig down and you find problems. Imagine for a moment what would happen when New Yorkers, reliably Democratic in presidential elections, learned that their legislature was casting all its electoral votes for a Republican candidate because he or she won the popular vote. Uproar is too modest a word.

The current system is far from ideal, and one idea worth considering is to shift away from winner-take-all in each state to a proportional allocation of electors based on statewide vote totals. But any change to a system that has generally served the nation well for more than two centuries should be both bipartisan and carefully considered.

Democrats are the wounded party now, but going into this election they thought they had a "blue firewall" of states that gave them a big Electoral College advantage. The way to win is to run better campaigns and better candidates under the existing rules, not try to change the rules after a painful loss.

USA TODAY's editorial opinions are decided by its Editorial Board, separate from the news staff. Most editorials are coupled with an opposing view — a unique USA TODAY feature.
 
It's amazing how metropolitan-area concentrated the liberal vote really is.

countymaprb1024.png
 
The Presidential election should be completely separate from anything else, no gun control or weed decisions on the same ballot. I'd be more likely to accept the popular vote then.

Still don't like it.
 
Switching to popular could really backfire for the Democrats.

Oregon is a PERFECT example of this. A lot of Republicans don't even bother voting in Oregon because they figure their vote will be downed out, and they're right, but if we switched entirely to a popular vote, every single vote would count.
 
There are good arguments for both, imo. So then why bother? Its the system we have, its worked till now, everyone already knows the rules, and the only people who want to change it are the losers and that's only right after they lost. This idea belongs up there were succeeding from the union, its just sour grapes.
 
There are good arguments for both, imo. So then why bother? Its the system we have, its worked till now, everyone already knows the rules, and the only people who want to change it are the losers and that's only right after they lost. This idea belongs up there were succeeding from the union, its just sour grapes.
'till now?

Gore lost w/the Popular vote too, back in what 2000? Millennials have their mind blown when I tell them of this though. LOL-- too young to remember. They think this is 'rigged!'; ironic. :)
 
It's amazing how metropolitan-area concentrated the liberal vote really is.

countymaprb1024.png

And for me, this is what it boils down to. We are a collection of states. The United States of America. The President needs to be a representative of all of the states and all of the regions of this massive country. Simply because someone in Portland or LA or NY doesn't understand the plight of someone in Wisconsin or Ohio or Kansas, doesn't mean that those people don't have a legitimate opinion and should be valued. If we went straight off population, the urban centers would control the White House and a large portion of the country would feel unrepresented. And when you start having large swaths of the country feeling unrepresented, that's when you see things escalate to war.
 
'till now?

Gore lost w/the Popular vote too, back in what 2000? Millennials have their mind blown when I tell them of this though. LOL-- too young to remember. They think this is 'rigged!'; ironic. :)

hanging chad anyone?
 
And for me, this is what it boils down to. We are a collection of states. The United States of America. The President needs to be a representative of all of the states and all of the regions of this massive country. Simply because someone in Portland or LA or NY doesn't understand the plight of someone in Wisconsin or Ohio or Kansas, doesn't mean that those people don't have a legitimate opinion and should be valued. If we went straight off population, the urban centers would control the White House and a large portion of the country would feel unrepresented. And when you start having large swaths of the country feeling unrepresented, that's when you see things escalate to war.

Minorities must get representation? When it's convenient for them, Republicans talk like Democrats. So how about giving Washington, D.C. the vote, and some voting Congressmen? Indian reservations should get some electoral votes. Also hippies. Just following your logic. You weren't just blindly, legalistically, randomly following words in the Constitution, right? You're following the noble moral principle that every group should be represented, right?
 
Minorities must get representation? When it's convenient for them, Republicans talk like Democrats. So how about giving Washington, D.C. the vote, and some voting Congressmen? Indian reservations should get some electoral votes. Also hippies. Just following your logic. You weren't just blindly, legalistically, randomly following words in the Constitution, right? You're following the noble moral principle that every group should be represented, right?

Sorry, I'd respond to you, but you're a gimmick account and I have never been able to take your posts seriously.
 
What's the definition of gimmick account? Someone you don't find on your college campus? Walk off campus sometime and experience real people.
 
And for me, this is what it boils down to. We are a collection of states. The United States of America. The President needs to be a representative of all of the states and all of the regions of this massive country. Simply because someone in Portland or LA or NY doesn't understand the plight of someone in Wisconsin or Ohio or Kansas, doesn't mean that those people don't have a legitimate opinion and should be valued. If we went straight off population, the urban centers would control the White House and a large portion of the country would feel unrepresented. And when you start having large swaths of the country feeling unrepresented, that's when you see things escalate to war.

I guess what I don't understand about this argument is that the electoral college is based off of each states population. What's the real difference between California getting 55 electoral votes compared to Montana's 3, or California getting 38.8m votes compared to Montana's 1.08m votes. I don't think Montana would feel any less represented than it does already.

The current system is far from ideal, and one idea worth considering is to shift away from winner-take-all in each state to a proportional allocation of electors based on statewide vote totals. But any change to a system that has generally served the nation well for more than two centuries should be both bipartisan and carefully considered.

This seems the most rational of any option to me.
 
But any change to a system that has generally served the nation well for more than two centuries should be both bipartisan and carefully considered.

Unsupported conclusion. The writer fails to analyze whether the nation was better off after the 4 times the Electoral College denied the voters the president they wanted.

This seems the most rational of any option to me.

It's the most irrational. All it does is round off big numbers. Instead of counting 1,234,567 votes for Smith and 2,345,678 for Jones, it gives 10 electoral votes to Smith and 20 to Jones.
 
I guess what I don't understand about this argument is that the electoral college is based off of each states population. What's the real difference between California getting 55 electoral votes compared to Montana's 3, or California getting 38.8m votes compared to Montana's 1.08m votes. I don't think Montana would feel any less represented than it does already.



This seems the most rational of any option to me.

If California split its electors, Trump would have gotten 20, Clinton 35. Something like that.
Trump won the majority of electors in the states he won, plus he'd gain from Clinton's states (NY). His electoral victory would still be victory.

California is already getting a lot of influence (55/538) in the electoral college.

You would nullify Montana's voters. Why would candidates bother to go there?

A popular vote contest involving multiple candidates could produce a winner with, say, only 35% of the vote, provoking an outcry to create a runoff process involving the top two vote-getters. And if the U.S. popular vote were so close that a nationwide recount were needed, the process could turn into a nightmare dwarfing the Florida fiasco of 2000.​
 
If California split its electors, Trump would have gotten 20, Clinton 35. Something like that.
Trump won the majority of electors in the states he won, plus he'd gain from Clinton's states (NY). His electoral victory would still be victory.

That's fine. This is about him winning. I just think the current way the electoral college is set up is stupid. 20 to 35 makes much more sense.

You would nullify Montana's voters. Why would candidates bother to go there?

Their vote would be no more nullified than it is now. How much do candidates bother with Montana now?
 
That's fine. This is about him winning. I just think the current way the electoral college is set up is stupid. 20 to 35 makes much more sense.



Their vote would be no more nullified than it is now. How much do candidates bother with Montana now?

3 electoral votes. If you want to win, you count the votes and go get them.

This election was thought to be close before election day. Close enough that there were over 10,000 political ads shown in Montana this election.
 
3 electoral votes. If you want to win, you count the votes and go get them.

This election was thought to be close before election day. Close enough that there were over 10,000 political ads shown in Montana this election.

Candidates would be more likely to pay attention to every state if they knew they could at least get a few electoral votes, instead of just accepting that a state which is either very red or very blue isn't worth their time or money.
 
If all the states split their electors based on percentage of votes received, Clinton would have 261 and Trump 258, with 19 unassigned due to rounding or 3rd-party voters. If those 19 unassigned electors were granted to the candidate with a majority/plurality in that state, we would be tied at 269.
 
Candidates hardly bother to campaign in the nations largest cities or their state, since most are already in the bag for the most liberal if not socialist candidate.

Rank City Population
1. New York, N.Y. 8,143,197
2. Los Angeles, Calif. 3,844,829
3. Chicago, Ill. 2,842,518
4. Houston, Tex. 2,016,582
5. Philadelphia, Pa. 1,463,281
6. Phoenix, Ariz. 1,461,575
7. San Antonio, Tex. 1,256,509
8. San Diego, Calif. 1,255,540
9. Dallas, Tex. 1,213,825
10. San Jose, Calif. 912,332

The exception to the rule broke this time with Pa and Ariz with the battle for PA swinging the deal. But the battle was waged in Phoenix and Detroit too, which was in days gone by on this list. Education reform is sorely needed to change this demographic. Contrary to what the media sells about the more educated vote progressive, the reality is the uneducated vote democratic in addition with the feelers. Where as, the educated vote Republican, until they become so wealthy, they can afford to benevolently and apparently become Democrats.




Without the EC system, it would hardly make sense to worry about anything else other than the population centers, except perhaps the next 5 on the list. So this would then in turn empower the nations street people to select our President. Probably no one right of a communist, or even Bernie Sanders could possibly have a chance to be elected.

I seriously doubt we would have lasted into this century without the EC system. Those old dudes got it right 200 plus years ago. But the real question is, even with our advanced central government controlled education system, why do so many today not see the wisdom?
 
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If California split its electors, Trump would have gotten 20, Clinton 35. Something like that. Trump won the majority of electors in the states he won, plus he'd gain from Clinton's states (NY). His electoral victory would still be victory.

If all the states split their electors based on percentage of votes received, Clinton would have 261 and Trump 258, with 19 unassigned due to rounding or 3rd-party voters. If those 19 unassigned electors were granted to the candidate with a majority/plurality in that state, we would be tied at 269.

Denny says Trump would have won. Platypus says Hillary would have won. I wonder which one I believe...Which one is winging it, and which has precise numbers...
 
Can you imagine the mess that could arise in a really close popular vote election? Each state has it's own election laws governing when a recount is required. You could have elections being challenged in multiple states and end up taking weeks to unravel who won the election. Imagine five or six states ending up being challenged all the way to the Supreme Court. As it is, the Bush/Gore election ended up hanging up (by a chad) the 2004 election and throwing the country into a fit, but at least the outcome was limited to one state. The framers of the Constitution, in my opinion, were deliberate and wise when they chose to make our country a republic rather than a pure democracy. Any thought of changing the process deserves an equally deliberate and wise debate. The aftermath of a highly contentious election isn't the time for that discussion.
 
http://www.fairvote.org/maine_nebraska

This method has been used in Maine since 1972 and Nebraska since 1996, though since both states have adopted this modification, the statewide winners have swept all of the state's districts in every election except 2008 and 2016. In 2008, Nebraska gave four of its electoral votes to John McCain, but Barack Obama won a single electoral vote from Nebraska's 2nd congressional district. In 2016, Maine gave three of its electoral votes to Hillary Clinton, but Donald Trump won a single electoral vote in Maine's 2nd congressional district.

Some have argued for expanding this system to address the problems inherent in the use of the winner-take-all electoral college method. However, if expanded to all 50 states, the Congressional District Method would make the presidential election even less competitive, and it would increase the likelihood of a candidate winning the election without winning a majority of the national popular vote. We analyze the system, along with the "whole number proportional" system in our 2015 report, Fuzzy Math: Wrong Way Reforms for Allocating Electoral Votes.
 
Switching to popular could really backfire for the Democrats.

Oregon is a PERFECT example of this. A lot of Republicans don't even bother voting in Oregon because they figure their vote will be downed out, and they're right, but if we switched entirely to a popular vote, every single vote would count.

And there are more liberals here so...
 
A popular vote contest involving multiple candidates could produce a winner with, say, only 35% of the vote, provoking an outcry to create a runoff process involving the top two vote-getters. And if the U.S. popular vote were so close that a nationwide recount were needed, the process could turn into a nightmare dwarfing the Florida fiasco of 2000.​

This is why we need IRV voting.
 
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