Matthews vs. Webster

[B-Roy]

http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=0&p1=webstma02&y1=2010&p2=matthwe02&y2=2010

Statistically, they're like carbon copies. Matthews is more efficient but Webster rebounds better and turns the ball over less. It's kind of ridiculous how some of their stats match up. And according to Jazz fans, Matthews has trouble driving into anything but an open lane, kind of like Webster. Matthews is supposed to be a good defender too, but I haven't seen enough of him to comment on whether or not his defense is better than Websters. He'll also cost more than Webster. Matthews also had the luxury of playing in a good Jazz system.

So, who is better, really?

 

[RamblinRod]

I guess we're about to find out.

 

[THE HCP]

I think Nic will play 35 minutes a game this year.

 

[Wheels]

one has been in the league 5 years.. the other just finished his rookie season.. So for me I would guess Matthews.

 

[hasoos]

Yes but the efficiency difference is huge. Shooting 40% is down near the bottom run in the NBA. Shooting 48% is an elite shooting percentage.

Martell had one of the prettiest jumpers in the NBA. Too bad it hardly ever went in.

 

[MARIS61]

Martell is twice the defender, and at least as good in everything else.

Plus he doesn't want Roy's starting spot like Matthews obviously will soon enough.

Unless we're trading Roy and going with Rudy and Wes at the 2, this was an idiotic and clumsy move by Miller.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Yes it will be interesting to see. I liked Martel. But apparently KP and his team were very high on Babbitt. If they were right then it's a moot point. If they were wrong then we will be debating this for 5 years. Unless the consensus was that Marty needed a change of scenery regardless.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Martell is twice the defender, and at least as good in everything else.

Plus he doesn't want Roy's starting spot like Matthews obviously will soon enough.

Unless we're trading Roy and going with Rudy and Wes at the 2, this was an idiotic and clumsy move by Miller.

Still not watching anybody play basketball but the Blazers I see

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Martell is twice the defender, and at least as good in everything else.

Plus he doesn't want Roy's starting spot like Matthews obviously will soon enough.

Unless we're trading Roy and going with Rudy and Wes at the 2, this was an idiotic and clumsy move by Miller.

Overall, I agree. I suppose good defenders are always needed, but our second unit needs a couple of real shooters. And Matthews will always be a second unit player. I have no problem getting him, but not this price. He better be trade bait.

 

[Minstrel]

one has been in the league 5 years.. the other just finished his rookie season.. So for me I would guess Matthews.

Same age, though. I guess you could say having seen the NBA game more is an advantage, but that's not clear...Sergio Rodriguez had one of his best years as a rookie, because teams hadn't fully scouted him yet. Once they did, his play went downhill. So while Webster has an edge in NBA experience, Matthews had an edge in being more of an unknown for opposing teams.

I think the two players are probably similar caliber at the moment. Portland made a bet that Webster wasn't going to break out in the next few years and now they've made a bet that Matthews will. Which is reasonable...a big part of talent evaluation is making bets on player talent and what you think they'll do in the future. Teams that make the right bets are the ones that succeed. So hopefully Portland is betting on the right guy!

 

[hasoos]

Still not watching anybody play basketball but the Blazers I see

You can always keep hope they will finally watch another team play. Maybe then my brain will quit hurting after I read Maris posts.

 

[B-Roy]

one has been in the league 5 years.. the other just finished his rookie season.. So for me I would guess Matthews.

They are exactly the same age.

And I would suspect Matthews went undrafted because of a relative lack of athleticism and upside. Martell also has the better NBA body, imo.

 

[B-Roy]

Yes but the efficiency difference is huge. Shooting 40% is down near the bottom run in the NBA. Shooting 48% is an elite shooting percentage.

Martell had one of the prettiest jumpers in the NBA. Too bad it hardly ever went in.

Matthews played in a system where he constantly got open looks, not just jumpers, but layups. He also played with one of the best point guards in the NBA.

 

[hasoos]

Matthews played in a system where he constantly got open looks, not just jumpers, but layups. He also played with one of the best point guards in the NBA.

Martell played in a system where he constantly got open looks as well. He just never made them.

 

[Wheels]

Same age, though. I guess you could say having seen the NBA game more is an advantage, but that's not clear...Sergio Rodriguez had one of his best years as a rookie, because teams hadn't fully scouted him yet. Once they did, his play went downhill. So while Webster has an edge in NBA experience, Matthews had an edge in being more of an unknown for opposing teams.

I think the two players are probably similar caliber at the moment. Portland made a bet that Webster wasn't going to break out in the next few years and now they've made a bet that Matthews will. Which is reasonable...a big part of talent evaluation is making bets on player talent and what you think they'll do in the future. Teams that make the right bets are the ones that succeed. So hopefully Portland is betting on the right guy!

They are exactly the same age.

And I would suspect Matthews went undrafted because of a relative lack of athleticism and upside. Martell also has the better NBA body, imo.

wasnt aware of the ages.. thanks. But I still personally think that NBA experience of 5 years the player would be further along. Of course thats just IMO.

 

[B-Roy]

Martell played in a system where he constantly got open looks as well. He just never made them.

As in jumpers yes, but when has Portland ever looked for cutters?

Webster made 81/161 at the rim this past season. In comparison, Matthews made 167/286.

You don't need me to tell you what that does to a player's shooting %.

 

[B-Roy]

wasnt aware of the ages.. thanks. But I still personally think that NBA experience of 5 years the player would be further along. Of course thats just IMO.

I think going to college for 4 years actually helps a player develop more mature. Look at Roy for example.

 

[Blaze01]

Martell is twice the defender, and at least as good in everything else.

Twice the defender? I don't think so......Probably the OTHER way around, I think Wes is the better defender, I guess we will see this year....

 

[Minstrel]

I think going to college for 4 years actually helps a player develop more mature. Look at Roy for example.

Look at Kobe, McGrady or James. I don't think there's any intrinsic benefit to college for developing in basketball. It's a question of playing high level competition, as long as you are good enough to play against it. And I think Webster's rookie performance showed he could play in the NBA. He simply wasn't as talented as presumed and therefore didn't have the ceiling some envisioned. I don't think it was a college/NBA thing.

 

[B-Roy]

Same age, though. I guess you could say having seen the NBA game more is an advantage, but that's not clear...Sergio Rodriguez had one of his best years as a rookie, because teams hadn't fully scouted him yet. Once they did, his play went downhill. So while Webster has an edge in NBA experience, Matthews had an edge in being more of an unknown for opposing teams.

I think the two players are probably similar caliber at the moment. Portland made a bet that Webster wasn't going to break out in the next few years and now they've made a bet that Matthews will. Which is reasonable...a big part of talent evaluation is making bets on player talent and what you think they'll do in the future. Teams that make the right bets are the ones that succeed. So hopefully Portland is betting on the right guy!

I suspect you're right. I'm really trying to make myself like this deal, but I just can't convince myself we're any better with Matthews than we are with Webster.

Oh well, at least there's Babbitt...

 

[Wheels]

I think going to college for 4 years actually helps a player develop more mature. Look at Roy for example.

you may be right.

 

[B-Roy]

Look at Kobe, McGrady or James. I don't think there's any intrinsic benefit to college for developing in basketball. It's a question of playing high level competition, as long as you are good enough to play against it. And I think Webster's rookie performance showed he could play in the NBA. He simply wasn't as talented as presumed and therefore didn't have the ceiling some envisioned. I don't think it was a college/NBA thing.

Probably, but in terms of developing a player's maturity and approach to the game, I think College does have some benefits that jumping straight into the league doesn't have.

 

[andalusian]

I think it was pretty clear that Webster's chance of breaking out with this team has passed away. He was given the opportunity again and again and failed to deliver. He is either never going to make it - or needs a change of scenery to make it happen.

With this said - the gamble on Wes makes sense. Would have been nice if they could get him at a discount compared to Martell - but it was not to be given his RFA status - so at least they did not go half-assed about it.

 

[hasoos]

As in jumpers yes, but when has Portland ever looked for cutters?

Webster made 81/161 at the rim this past season. In comparison, Matthews made 167/286.

You don't need me to tell you what that does to a player's shooting %.

At the same time, better players know to get to the rim instead of jacking all 3's. The reason Webster never got a game going to the rim going, is because all he did was jack 3's and make bad decisions when he went to the rim. Does an out of control drive ending with an aerobatic clunker off the rim jog any memories? That was pretty much Websters game going to the rim.

A big reason the Blazers are better now than they were 4 years ago is because they have gotten rid of shitty players and filled in behind them with better talent. Webster, Outlaw and Blake moving out were the final moves to moving on and making the team better.

 

[B-Roy]

At the same time, better players know to get to the rim instead of jacking all 3's. The reason Webster never got a game going to the rim going, is because all he did was jack 3's and make bad decisions when he went to the rim. Does an out of control drive ending with an aerobatic clunker off the rim jog any memories? That was pretty much Websters game going to the rim.

A big reason the Blazers are better now than they were 4 years ago is because they have gotten rid of shitty players and filled in behind them with better talent. Webster, Outlaw and Blake moving out were the final moves to moving on and making the team better.

Because the Jazz play a system that encourages cutters and slashers, and on top of that they've got a great point guard getting people the ball.

Portland plays a system that encourages players to shoot jumpers, and shoot jumpers they do......

 

[MARIS61]

Overall, I agree. I suppose good defenders are always needed, but our second unit needs a couple of real shooters. And Matthews will always be a second unit player. I have no problem getting him, but not this price. He better be trade bait.

At that overblown price I doubt any other team would want him so I suspect Larry Miller sees him as a major player for us. Also Matthews will never be satisfied playing Bayless minutes nor would we pay so much for a backup so I guess Brandon is being traded?

 

[MARIS61]

You can always keep hope they will finally watch another team play. Maybe then my brain will quit hurting after I read Maris posts.

Talk about tunnel-vision.

You guys never noticed that there's always a second team playing when the Blazers play? In fact, you can see every team in the league play against them at least twice per season. I guess I've watched more closely than you have.

 

[Pinwheel1]

As in jumpers yes, but when has Portland ever looked for cutters?

Miller looks for cutters. Blake not so much. Batum and LMA received alley opps from Miller by cutting to the basket. I agree this needs to be increased and with Greg on the floor i think it will.

 

[GODunk]

I think that Webster needs to be somewhere where he has the green light. The more he shoots the more consistent he will be. He also seems to be the type of player that needs consistent minutes and a 30 minute a night role to be more consistent.

I think that if we kept Martell and he had the role he had toward the end of the year getting 5 minutes here and there you completely devalue him and he becomes worthless. We turned him into the 16th pick. Nate wanted a shooter and they got the top rated shooter in the draft. Personally, I don't know if I am excited about Babbitt, time will tell.

I think, setting salary aside, Wes Matthews is going to be better suited to playing 15 minutes a night. It's addition by subtraction. You don't have a veteran (albeit young as well) sitting on the bench behind Batum. This frees Batum up to play 35 or 36 minutes a night as some have pointed out. I guess I just see the Webster move as a necessary one. He was a great guy, kept a great attitude, and he deserved a chance somewhere. I will cheer for him always. I truly hope he becomes a Tracy McGrady (left Toronto and Vince Carter and became a star).

 

[Nikolokolus]

Webster had talent but he had big issues with confidence and needed so much time on the court to get going and be effective that I just don't think there's any way to compare the two players. From everything I've gathered (Utah fans mostly, and a couple of NBA writers) Matthews is like a slightly less talented, but more physical version of Batum (if Nic were 4 inches shorter). He's an energy guy, he's supposedly tough and he doesn't need 30 minutes every night in order to produce in an efficient manner.

If Webster had been less of a high volume, rhythm shooter I think the team would have been perfectly happy keeping him as a swing man to back up both Roy and Nic, but I'm thinking that never really would have worked out the we (or Martell) hoped it would -- he was after all only a career 40% shooter from the floor and a 37% long range shooter, in four years without much change.

I have no idea if Matthews is going to pan out or be this great defensive player who can space the floor consistently or not, but it sure as hell wasn't going to be Rudy, it probably wasn't going to be Martell and after that who else were we likely to get in a trade or free agency with Matthews particular combination of age, skill-set, and toughness (by reputation). We probably overpaid, but in this market his salary is probably about average relative to the rest of his free agent peers.