Politics Neil Gorsuch and Sonia Sotomayor Just Came Out Swinging Against Policing for Profit

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SlyPokerDog

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Tyson Timbs just wants his car back. In 2015, Timbs was charged with selling heroin to undercover officers in Indiana to fund his opioid addiction. After he pleaded guilty, a private law firm filed a lawsuit on behalf of the state to confiscate his Land Rover SUV, valued at $42,000. That’s more than four times the maximum $10,000 fine for Timbs’ crimes. But because he briefly carried drugs in the vehicle, the firm claimed that it could seize and sell it, turning over some of the profit to Indiana and pocketing the rest.

Welcome to the topsy-turvy world of civil asset forfeiture, also known as legalized theft. Every year, the federal and state governments obtain billions of dollars thanks to the work of prosecutors who expropriate property with some tenuous connection to a crime. Most states use the money to fund law enforcement, called policing for profit. Indiana also lets private attorneys file forfeiture claims against defendants, earning contingency fees and a share of the profit. That’s what happened to Timbs—so he sued, insisting that extreme forfeiture violates the Constitution. On Wednesday, the Supreme Court signaled that it agreed, with an unusual coalition of justices assailing the practice. A decision for Timbs could curb law enforcement abuses across the country, limiting one of the most scandalous components of our criminal justice system.


In a sense, Timbs v. Indiana is a pretty easy case. The Eighth Amendment bars the imposition of “excessive fines,” and the Supreme Court has already recognized that the forfeiture of personal property qualifies as a “fine” for constitutional purposes. It has also ruled that fines may not be “grossly disproportionate” to an offense. When the government seized Timbs’ car—which, again, is worth vastly more than the monetary penalty for his crime—it would seem to have imposed a grossly disproportionate fine in violation of the Eighth Amendment.

But, weirdly enough, the court has never explicitly held that this rule restricts stategovernments. The Bill of Rights originally applied only to the federal government, as the Framers were hesitant to limit state sovereignty. After the Civil War, Congress drafted the 14th Amendment with the intent to “incorporate” the Bill of Rights against state governments as well. Throughout the 20th century, the Supreme Court held that almost all these rights did, indeed, apply to states. That’s why neither Congress nor your state government may infringe upon your freedom of speech, authorize an unreasonable search, or compel self-incrimination. But the court has never had an opportunity to squarely state that the excessive fines clause is “incorporated”—until now.


There is little doubt that the justices will use Timbs to incorporate the clause at long last. Under long-standing precedent, a right that is “fundamental” to “ordered liberty” and “deeply rooted” in history receives protection under the 14th Amendment. And in its extraordinary brief, the Institute for Justice—the libertarian firm representing Timbs—demonstrates that the right against excessive fines checks both boxes. It was enshrined in the Magna Carta and safeguarded by most state constitutions when the U.S. Constitution was ratified. When Congress wrote the 14th Amendment, lawmakers argued that it would nullify “Black Codes” in Southern states that levied crippling, arbitrary fines on newly freed slaves. There is really no plausible argument that the right against excessive fines is not “fundamental” or “deeply rooted” and thus incorporated against the states.

So when Indiana Solicitor General Thomas Fisher approached the lectern to argue that the excessive fines clause doesn’t fully apply to Indiana, Justice Neil Gorsuch pounced. “Can we just get one thing off the table?” he asked. “We all agree that the excessive fines clause is incorporated against the states. … Can we at least agree on that?” Fisher hedged, but Gorsuch shot back: “I think a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ would probably be a good starting place.” Fisher tried to suggest the truth was more complicated, but Gorsuch cut him off, noting that most of the Bill of Rights was incorporated “in, like, the 1940s.”


“And here we are in 2018, still litigating incorporation of the Bill of Rights,” the justice said. “Really? Come on, General.” He leaned back in his chair, grinning like the cat that caught the canary.

Although Gorsuch led the charge, no justice seemed to think that the Constitution permits states to impose excessive fines. So Fisher raised a backup argument, alleging that the Eighth Amendment doesn’t bar forfeitures of property, only money. The problem with this claim is that the court rejected it in 1993’s Austin v. United States. So Fisher asked the court to overrule Austin, further flummoxing Gorsuch.

“Let’s say this court’s not inclined to revisit Austin,” he told Thomas. “You’re going to lose not just the incorporation question but the merits question too.” Justice Stephen Breyer asked if Indiana could seize a Bugatti if it was going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit. “Yes, it’s forfeitable,” Fisher responded. Breyer mused: What about a “Mercedes, or a special Ferrari or even jalopy?” Fisher laughed at Breyer’s fanciful hypotheticals. But Justice Sonia Sotomayor, Gorsuch’s new criminal justice ally, looked unamused.

“Justice Scalia said it very well,” she told Fisher, quoting Scalia’s opinion in Austin. “For the Eighth Amendment to limit cash fines while permitting limitless [property confiscation] would make little sense.” Instead, it would revive England’s notoriously lawless Star Chamber. Gorsuch nodded vigorously in agreement. “Are we trying to avoid a society that’s like the Star Chamber?” Sotomayor asked. “If we look at these forfeitures that are occurring today … many of them seem grossly disproportionate to the crimes being charged.”


She’s right. In Philadelphia, prosecutors seized one couple’s house because their son was arrested with $40 worth of drugs. Officials there seized 1,000 other houses and 3,300 vehicles before a 2018 settlement that led to reparations for victims. In 2014, federal prosecutors used asset forfeiture to take more stuff than burglars. One Texas police department seized property from out-of-town drivers, then colluded with the district attorney to coerce these drivers into waiving their rights. Law enforcement frequently targets poor people and racial minorities, figuring they are unable to fight back.

Although he said nothing on Wednesday (as usual), Justice Clarence Thomas is one of the court’s fiercest critics of civil asset forfeiture. In 2017, he wrote a solo opinion urging the court to rein in the practice. Citing its “egregious and well-chronicled abuses,” Thomas asserted that the Constitution likely does not allow police to “seize property with limited judicial oversight and retain it for their own use.” And in 1998, he authored a 5–4 decision, joined only by the liberals, outlawing forfeitures that are “grossly disproportional to the gravity of [the] offense.”


So while Gorsuch and Sotomayor led the fight on Wednesday, there’s probably a cross-ideological coalition of justices prepared to invalidate excessive forfeitures. Such a ruling would reflect broad agreement across the ideological spectrum that forfeiture has gone too far. Among the organizations that wrote or joined amicus briefs supporting Timbs are the progressive ACLU and NAACP; the libertarian Cato and Goldwater institutes, as well as the Pacific Legal Foundation; the conservative Chamber of Commerce and Judicial Watch; and the fundamentalist Foundation for Moral Law, which is “dedicated to the defense of God-given liberties.”

Only Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito expressed any interest in allowing civil asset forfeiture to continue unabated. A majority of the court seems poised to rule that all 50 states must stop seizing property in a way that’s grossly disproportionate to the crime committed—a holy grail of criminal justice reformers. In one fell swoop, defendants will receive new protections against the legalized theft of their stuff. And Tyson Timbs, who attended Wednesday’s argument, can demand that Indiana return the Land Rover that it never had a right to seize in the first place.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...a-sotomayor-tyson-timbs-civil-forfeiture.html
 
One of the issues people across the political spectrum oppose. Liberals and progressives oppose excessive police power and targeting poor and minorities. Conservatives oppose attack on property rifrig.
 
Liberal courts have consistently avoided ruling on the issues of private prisons and civil forfeiture, as their donors profit from the former and their expensive policies depend on the latter.

Trump's prison reform and appointment of Constitution-supporting judges has paved the way for positive changes at last.
 
Liberal courts have consistently avoided ruling on the issues of private prisons and civil forfeiture, as their donors profit from the former and their expensive policies depend on the latter.

Trump's prison reform and appointment of Constitution-supporting judges has paved the way for positive changes at last.
Private prisons were a Republican construct.
 
Squeaking out yer ass again Lanny.

Well MODS, is this not a personal insult? He should be on at least his second strike. Are you guys going to delete the post and put him on alert or was the threat of banning just a false pretense?
 
Well MODS, is this not a personal insult? He should be on at least his second strike. Are you guys going to delete the post and put him on alert or was the threat of banning just a false pretense?

It reads like he was referring to what Lanny had posted.
 
It reads like he was referring to what Lanny had posted.

Bull shit. It's clearly a personal attack and an example clearly of what OB was posting about. Once again I will use my example of when I posted someone is clueless and I get a 2 day ban from the thread and then this guy can say someone is squeaking (speaking) out there ass. Quit sugarcoating it as it comes across as you protecting him because he whines all over the forum of being mistreated.
 
MODS, is this not a personal insult? He should be on at least his second strike. Are you guys going to delete the post and put him on alert or was the threat of banning just a false pretense?

@CupWizier you just posted yesterday a response to Marzy where you included a photo of a guy with his head up his ass. Don't be a hypocrite. Are we to take that as an insult too? I and other Mods saw it and certainly did not see it that way. The threat of banning is no false pretense. It will happen. Everything Marzy writes isn't an insult. Yes, his responses are sometimes unpleasant and disagreeable. I expect Marzy could come up with more informed responses as he is an intelligent guy. But, not everything is an insult. If he does use insults it will count against him.

Bull shit. It's clearly a personal attack and an example clearly of what OB was posting about. Once again I will use my example of when I posted someone is clueless and I get a 2 day ban from the thread and then this guy can say someone is squeaking (speaking) out there ass. Quit sugarcoating it as it comes across as you protecting him because he whines all over the forum of being mistreated.

We(the Mods) have listened to both you and OB. Neither of you have gone unheard. Telling someone they are talking out their ass is not an insult. There is no sugar coating. This is not a forum about baking. Marzy is not being protected. You know I am surely not protecting him. Marzy and I haven't got along. Not that I have anything personal against him. We just have contrasting ways of thinking.
We are trying at this point to agree to disagree. Still, on this point It is my opinion and the opinion of other mods that what he said is not an insult.

Again if he utters actual insults they will go against him. And, if he gets 3 like anyone else he will be banned. I am tired of hearing whining about favor being curried to this poster or that poster. I have nor owe alliegance to no one here. No one gets off. Rules are rules.
 
@CupWizier you just posted yesterday a response to Marzy where you included a photo of a guy with his head up his ass. Don't be a hypocrite. Are we to take that as an insult too? I and other Mods saw it and certainly did not see it that way. The threat of banning is no false pretense. It will happen. Everything Marzy writes isn't an insult. Yes, his responses are sometimes unpleasant and disagreeable. I expect Marzy could come up with more informed responses as he is an intelligent guy. But, not everything is an insult. If he does use insults it will count against him.



We(the Mods) have listened to both you and OB. Neither of you have gone unheard. Telling someone they are talking out their ass is not an insult. There is no sugar coating. This is not a forum about baking. Marzy is not being protected. You know I am surely not protecting him. Marzy and I haven't got along. Not that I have anything personal against him. We just have contrasting ways of thinking.
We are trying at this point to agree to disagree. Still, on this point It is my opinion and the opinion of other mods that what he said is not an insult.

Again if he utters actual insults they will go against him. And, if he gets 3 like anyone else he will be banned. I am tired of hearing whining about favor being curried to this poster or that poster. I have nor owe alliegance to no one here. No one gets off. Rules are rules.
Are you sure nobody gets off? That WOULD expla.....nevermind.
 
@CupWizier you just posted yesterday a response to Marzy where you included a photo of a guy with his head up his ass. Don't be a hypocrite. Are we to take that as an insult too? I and other Mods saw it and certainly did not see it that way. The threat of banning is no false pretense. It will happen. Everything Marzy writes isn't an insult. Yes, his responses are sometimes unpleasant and disagreeable. I expect Marzy could come up with more informed responses as he is an intelligent guy. But, not everything is an insult. If he does use insults it will count against him.



We(the Mods) have listened to both you and OB. Neither of you have gone unheard. Telling someone they are talking out their ass is not an insult. There is no sugar coating. This is not a forum about baking. Marzy is not being protected. You know I am surely not protecting him. Marzy and I haven't got along. Not that I have anything personal against him. We just have contrasting ways of thinking.
We are trying at this point to agree to disagree. Still, on this point It is my opinion and the opinion of other mods that what he said is not an insult.

Again if he utters actual insults they will go against him. And, if he gets 3 like anyone else he will be banned. I am tired of hearing whining about favor being curried to this poster or that poster. I have nor owe alliegance to no one here. No one gets off. Rules are rules.

and I would have had no problem if you wanted to delete that comment, but when I get banned for 2 days responding to a poster saying they are clueless and this guy gets away with telling me that my ass was kicked in a thread and that lanny squeaks (speaks) out his ass then I take exception. Consistency is all any of us ask for and the inconsistency observed in the forum is what escalates things to a higher level. I guess I will just start posting about people getting their ass kicked and that they speak out of there ass. According to you guys I can do that but just can't say something as awful as saying someone is clueless. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?
 
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and I would have had no problem if you wanted to delete that comment, but when I get banned for 2 days responding to a poster saying they are clueless and this clown gets away with telling me that my ass was kicked in a thread and that lanny squeaks (speaks) out his ass then I take exception. Consistency is all any of us ask for and the inconsistency observed in the forum is what escalates things to a higher level. I guess I will just start posting about people getting their ass kicked and that they speak out of there ass. According to you guys I can do that but just can't say something as awful as saying someone is clueless. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

There is no hyprocisy. If you call someone clueless you are attacking their intelligence, a clear insult. If tell them they got their ass kicked in a thread or you are talking out your ass you are attacking the poster. Talking out your ass is close, it rides a thin line, but it isn't an insult. If you want to tell Marzy he is talking out his ass as you have already done feel free, or when things aren't going his way in a thread you can mention he got his ass kicked. That is your opinions, not insults and you can feel free to express them. Have a good day.
 
There is no hyprocisy. If you call someone clueless you are attacking their intelligence, a clear insult. If tell them they got their ass kicked in a thread or you are talking out your ass you are attacking the poster. Talking out your ass is close, it rides a thin line, but it isn't an insult. If you want to tell Marzy he is talking out his ass as you have already done feel free, or when things aren't going his way in a thread you can mention he got his ass kicked. That is your opinions, not insults and you can feel free to express them. Have a good day.
How about calling him a clown?

Not an insult cuz clowns are funny?
 
There is no hyprocisy. If you call someone clueless you are attacking their intelligence, a clear insult. If tell them they got their ass kicked in a thread or you are talking out your ass you are attacking the poster. Talking out your ass is close, it rides a thin line, but it isn't an insult. If you want to tell Marzy he is talking out his ass as you have already done feel free, or when things aren't going his way in a thread you can mention he got his ass kicked. That is your opinions, not insults and you can feel free to express them. Have a good day.



Great, so I can tell a poster he is talking out his ass but can't say he is clueless. Got it. Makes no sense, but I will comply. :bgrin:
 
Judicial Watch Joins Allied Educational Foundation in Supreme Court Civil Asset Forfeiture Amicus Brief
NOVEMBER 30, 2018

‘Freedom from unlawful conversion of property is an inherent individual liberty right which the Constitution must secure for all citizens’

(Washington, DC) — Judicial Watch announced today that it joined with Allied Educational Foundation (AEF) in filing an amicus curiae brief in the United States Supreme Court supporting petitioner Tyson Timbs against the State of Indiana, which Judicial Watch contends abused its power in a civil asset forfeiture case (Tyson Timbs, et. al. v. State of Indiana (No. 17-1091)) The case was heard by the Supreme Court this week.

In May of 2013, Tyson Timbs was arrested and pled guilty to a charge of drug dealing and conspiracy. He received a six-year sentence (with five years suspended) and a $1,200 fine.

Earlier in the year, Timbs had received a $70,000 life-insurance payment after his father passed away. He used $42,000 of it to purchase a Land Rover car. Timbs used the Land Rover to deliver $225 worth of drugs, the report said. The state seized the car under a state policy which allows private lawyers to sue for a forfeiture in order to receive a cut.

The car was worth four times the amount of the maximum possible fine ($10,000) in the Timbs case. Lower courts in Indiana ruled the penalty was grossly disproportional under the Eighth Amendment. The Indiana State Supreme Court reversed the lower courts’ ruling.

In their brief, Judicial Watch and AEF express concern that “the Indiana Supreme Court’s ruling, if allowed to stand, will allow state and local government abuses of forfeiture laws to continue,” adding that “freedom from unlawful conversion of property is an inherent individual liberty right which the Constitution must secure for all citizens.”

Judicial Watch and AEF also noted that “The Eighth Amendment ‘excessive fines’ clause must serve as a check against state forfeiture laws. Many state and local governments abuse their powers to seize citizens’ property on the barest of pretense to raise revenue without having to raise taxes. When the amount the government can take is limited only by the size of a citizen’s bank account, the Courts must apply special scrutiny to prevent corrupt practices. The Eighth Amendment was designed to limit these kinds of easily-abused punitive laws, and it applies to the states via the Privileges or Immunities clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.”

National Review reported an abundance of “abusive seizures justified under civil forfeiture. One family had its home taken because the son was caught with $40 of drugs. In Texas, a family that drove for too long in the left lane of the highway was told by a county district attorney that their children would be put in foster care, the parents would be put in jail, and their car would be seized unless they handed over all of their cash, in which case they would be free to go. The town where that occurred, Tenaha, prides itself on this tactic, which ensures a steady flow of cash and goods from out-of-town drivers.”

Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas has long spoken out on the practice of civil forfeiture. In a case last year, Leonard v. Texas, which the Supreme Court refused to hear, Thomas wrote in a dissenting opinion: “This system – where police can seize property with limited judicial oversight and retain it for their own use – has led to egregious and well-chronicled abuses…. These forfeiture operations frequently target the poor and other groups least able to defend their interests in forfeiture proceedings. Perversely, these same groups are often the most burdened by forfeiture. They are more likely to use cash than alternative forms of payment, like credit cards, which may be less susceptible to forfeiture. And they are more likely to suffer in their daily lives while they litigate for the return of a critical item of property, such as a car or a home.”

As Judicial Watch and AEF contend “Occasionally, the abuse takes the form of governments using forfeiture laws to fill their coffers instead of raising taxes.”

Judicial Watch and AEF pointed to the December 9, 2014, testimony by Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton before the New York State Assembly:

The New York Police Department has broad authority to seize currency and property whenever an arrest is made. Because seized assets are used to fund the NYPD’s pension fund and other law enforcement purposes, the system creates a perverse incentive. According to a recent analysis, in 85 percent of NYPD forfeiture cases, the owner of the seized property is never charged with a crime.

They also cited Lee v. Minner (2006): “The inherent right of U.S. citizens to be free from excessive financial penalties is not one held exclusively against the federal government. It is therefore proper that the Eighth Amendment be applied to state and local governments, because the ability to live free or unjust government financial penalties both ‘plays an important role in furthering a vital national economy’ as well as ‘vindicates individual and societal rights.’”

“The Supreme Court should stop an egregious abuse of civil forfeiture laws in which state and local governments fill their coffers by seizing the property of citizens,” said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

The Allied Educational Foundation is a charitable and educational foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life through education. In furtherance of that goal, the Foundation has engaged in a number of projects, which include, but are not limited to, educational and health conferences domestically and abroad. AEF has partnered frequently with Judicial Watch to fight government and judicial corruption and to promote a return to ethics and morality in the nation’s public life.
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press...me-court-civil-asset-forfeiture-amicus-brief/
 
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