OT [NSFL, Extremely Graphic] - Photos Released by the Washington Post from Scenes of Mass Shootings

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[tlongII]

And you posted this because?….

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

And you posted this because?….

Because anyone who thinks that unfettered gun ownership in the twenty first century is defensible needs a brutal reality check???

 

[crandc]

Because people here can start threads about almost anything, and no one has to read them.

 

[julius]

Because anyone who thinks that unfettered gun ownership in the twenty first century is defensible needs a brutal reality check???

This is 100% a reason to post stuff like this. It seems those who are gun nuts (or any kind of "nut") want to keep their heads buried in the sand. It's similar to how many of the most ardent gung ho advocates for war are the ones who never served or never saw action (or are complete and utter whackadoos).

I knew a guy who had served, and claimed he was a "sharp shooter" who had dozens of kills in Iraq and "the stuff I saw would make you cry like a baby"...he was an advocate for carpet bombing other countries, etc...

Turned out when he served, he mostly spent time as a gopher and never actually left the US because he was too stupid, unqualified and untrustworthy. In fact, he was discharged early too. And furthermore, he's been arrested several times for domestic violence and cannot visit the state of California for a while.

So he felt the need to brag about killing innocent civilians and having to fight in combat and was all decorated (etc), yet never actually experienced it.

I have relatives that fought in Vietnam and in some cases took 45+ years after the fact to even talk about the shit he saw.

It seems those who don't experience it or see it first hand (or proof of it) find it easier to just ignore reality.

 

[tlongII]

Because anyone who thinks that unfettered gun ownership in the twenty first century is defensible needs a brutal reality check???

Do you think gun ownership is unrestricted in the US?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Because anyone who thinks that unfettered gun ownership in the twenty first century is defensible needs a brutal reality check???

We don't have unfettered gun ownership in this country. We have age limits and background checks are required. Virtually nobody is advocating for unfettered gun ownership.

Felons and those who have been forcibly committed to mental institutions are not allowed to have guns, by law.

What these pictures show is that you can't count on the police to help you. They were literally on the scene (hiding) listening to the act in many of these horrible pictures.

You had better be able to defend yourself and those you love, because nobody else is going to do it for you.

The other thing this does is encourage copycats.

 

[Phatguysrule]

This is 100% a reason to post stuff like this. It seems those who are gun nuts (or any kind of "nut") want to keep their heads buried in the sand. It's similar to how many of the most ardent gung ho advocates for war are the ones who never served or never saw action (or are complete and utter whackadoos).

I knew a guy who had served, and claimed he was a "sharp shooter" who had dozens of kills in Iraq and "the stuff I saw would make you cry like a baby"...he was an advocate for carpet bombing other countries, etc...

Turned out when he served, he mostly spent time as a gopher and never actually left the US because he was too stupid, unqualified and untrustworthy. In fact, he was discharged early too. And furthermore, he's been arrested several times for domestic violence and cannot visit the state of California for a while.

So he felt the need to brag about killing innocent civilians and having to fight in combat and was all decorated (etc), yet never actually experienced it.

I have relatives that fought in Vietnam and in some cases took 45+ years after the fact to even talk about the shit he saw.

It seems those who don't experience it or see it first hand (or proof of it) find it easier to just ignore reality.

That seems like a ton of anecdotal evidence leading to an opinion.

War sucks though. I'm sorry your relatives had to go through it and took so long to recover.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

We don't have unfettered gun ownership in this country. We have age limits and background checks are required. Never have in modern history, and virtually nobody is advocating for unfettered gun ownership.

Felons and those who have been forcibly committed to mental institutions are not allowed to have guns, by law.

What these pictures show is that you can't count on the police to help you. They were literally on the scene listening to the act in many of these horrible pictures.

You had better be able to defend yourself and those you love, because nobody else is going to do it for you.

The other thing this does is encourage copycats.

Gun ownership for all intents and purposes IS unfettered. How else to these lunatics continue to obtain guns?? You are arguing against the inarguable. And a larger portion of the "right" IS (and HAS) advocated for unfettered gun ownership. Every single time(!!!) restrictions are brought to the table, gun owners in general fight tooth and nail against them. They do not want ANY restrictions. And for you to say otherwise is flat out false. The amount of states who now have unrestricted open carry laws (or are pondering them) is mind boggling. Like that won't make the problem worse?? And felons and people with said mental health issues still get guns. We've seen this in the past 6 months alone. We pay the police to respond and defend us. If they are unable or unwilling to do their jobs, then they need to be removed and replaced with officers who understand the reason they get a monthly paycheck. Advocating that American citizens be armed against each other is the lazy (and morally indefensible) way out. And will only lead to more shootings, mass or otherwise. Bottom line, what few "restrictions" we have in place obviously do not do jack shit. I'm curious as to how you'd feel if someone strolled into OCHS and started blasting away.......

 

[SlyPokerDog]

And you posted this because?….

I'm glad you asked.

Here is the article those pictures are from. States have passed laws to, in a sense, hide what was done at these mass murders/killings/shootings. In some states where the parents have wanted what happened released, they are told no.

We see photos like this from wars. We've seen photos recently of dead children in Ukraine and Palestine. But when it happens here we don't.

Maybe that should change.

It's an interesting article, and I invite you to read it.


As mass shootings multiplied, the horrific human cost was concealed

States reeling from gun violence made graphic imagery confidential — part of a charged debate over privacy and public awareness

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ootings-graphic-images-public-records-debate/

 

[Phatguysrule]

Gun ownership for all intents and purposes IS unfettered. How else to these lunatics continue to obtain guns?? You are arguing against the inarguable.

Unfettered means unrestrained or uninhibited. Once again. By law, people who have been convicted of a felony or have been forcibly committed are not allowed to buy or own guns anywhere in the country. And background checks are required.
By definition, we don't have legally unrestrained or uninhibited access to firearms. And virtually nobody wants dangerous felons or mentally dangerous people to have guns.

And a larger portion of the "right" IS (and HAS) advocated for unfettered gun ownership. Every single time(!!!) restrictions are brought to the table, gun owners in general fight tooth and nail against them. They do not want ANY restrictions. And for you to say otherwise is flat out false.

I've never heard anybody serious argue that dangerous criminals and mentally dangerous people should have access to firearms.

The amount of states who now have unrestricted open carry laws (or are pondering them) is mind boggling. Like that won't make the problem worse?? And felons and people with said mental health issues still get guns. We've seen this in the past 6 months alone. We pay the police to respond and defend us. If they are unable or unwilling to do their jobs, then they need to be removed and replaced with officers who understand the reason they get a monthly paycheck.

Some felons and people with mental health issues will always get guns. There is no way to prevent that in a free society. It didn't work with alcohol. It didn't work with drugs. It can't. It just makes them more valuable. And it can't work with guns either.
Our best bet is educating our population and helping fewer people want to kill others. That's it.
Once again, there is room to make it safer and more easily restrict people from getting guns who shouldn't. Mark the ID of anybody who is restricted from firearms with with a restriction. Make it a felony to supply those people with guns or ammo.

Do that, and now there is a very simple way for the average person to help keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people.

And of course, free and easy to access education and healthcare, along with an improved social safety net would make a far bigger difference than any gun law.

You can't control
Advocating that American citizens be armed against each other is the lazy (and morally indefensible) way out. And will only lead to more shootings, mass or otherwise. Bottom line, what few "restrictions" we have in place obviously do not do jack shit.

Criminals will be armed. Of that, we can be certain. We've never been able to restrict criminals from accessing anything that millions of people want. It can't be done in a free society. And I wouldn't want to live in a society that had so little freedom that we could, quite frankly.

I'm curious as to how you'd feel if someone strolled into OCHS and started blasting away.......

I'd feel like there should have been proper measures taken to keep the bastard out, and failing that, staff should be allowed (though not forced) to be armed (with proper district funded regular training, psych eval, and added compensation) so they could defend themselves. I'd hope that the students of the families would sue the government for putting kids in a situation that they couldn't be defended.

My kids know to run out the nearest exit and not stop until there are several blocks between them and any attacker, and to call me immediately. I'm 5 minutes away. So unless they are astronomically unlucky that day they will be fine.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'm glad you asked.

Here is the article those pictures are from. States have passed laws to, in a sense, hide what was done at these mass murders/killings/shootings. In some states where the parents have wanted what happened released, they are told no.

We see photos like this from wars. We've seen photos recently of dead children in Ukraine and Palestine. But when it happens here we don't.

Maybe that should change.

It's an interesting article, and I invite you to read it.


As mass shootings multiplied, the horrific human cost was concealed

States reeling from gun violence made graphic imagery confidential — part of a charged debate over privacy and public awareness

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ootings-graphic-images-public-records-debate/

I haven't been looking at any pictures of the dead in Ukraine or Palestine. I'm interested in the politics and solutions. Not the carnage. I don't like reading about the horrible murder/suicides when families run their car in the garage (or run a hose from their car exhaust into their house) to kill themselves and their kids either.

It's morbid, IMO.

I don't fault anybody else for wanting to see it, but it's just not for me. I'd rather think about solutions.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I haven't been looking at any pictures of the dead in Ukraine or Palestine. I'm interested in the politics and solutions. Not the carnage. I don't like reading about the horrible murder/suicides when families run their car in the garage (or run a hose from their car exhaust into their house) to kill themselves and their kids either.

It's morbid, IMO.

I don't fault anybody else for wanting to see it, but it's just not for me. I'd rather think about solutions.

Photos help to tell the truth. While you personally may not want to view them, by being available they prevent people who are creating a narrative that isn't accurate or is just a flat-out lie.

Alex Jones wasn't the only one who said Sandy Hook didn't happen, he was just the most vocal. The Sandy Hook and Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shootings had thousands of people claiming they were fake and the survivors were "crisis actors."

Then there is Uvalde, where police waited and waited and waited to get into that classroom. We heard that kids were bleeding out and dying while the police didn't act. Now we know what that looks like and it's even more horrific than most of us could have imagined.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Photos help to tell the truth. While you personally may not want to view them, by being available they prevent people who are creating a narrative that isn't accurate or is just a flat-out lie.

Alex Jones wasn't the only one who said Sandy Hook didn't happen, he was just the most vocal. The Sandy Hook and Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shootings had thousands of people claiming they were fake and the survivors were "crisis actors."

Then there is Uvalde, where police waited and waited and waited to get into that classroom. We heard that kids were bleeding out and dying while the police didn't act. Now we know what that looks like and it's even more horrific than most of us could have imagined.

Yep. I'm not faulting you for it at all. I can see the benefits for sure.

Just a bit much for me.

If there are details that help explain things, I'd certainly be interested. But when the lead is a bunch of gory pictures I'm less likely to dive in.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Yep. I'm not faulting you for it at all. I can see the benefits for sure.

Just a bit much for me.

If there are details that help explain things, I'd certainly be interested. But when the lead is a bunch of gory pictures I'm less likely to dive in.

If you read the article the lead isn't those pictures.

 

[Phatguysrule]

If you read the article the lead isn't those pictures.

Gotcha. Everywhere I've seen this referenced has lead with the pictures.

*Edit* Like this reddit post. Links to the pictures front and center. I don't even see a link to the article.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Gotcha. Everywhere I've seen this referenced has lead with the pictures.

*Edit* Like this reddit post. Links to the pictures front and center. I don't even see a link to the article.

I linked the post.

As mass shootings multiplied, the horrific human cost was concealed

States reeling from gun violence made graphic imagery confidential — part of a charged debate over privacy and public awareness

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ootings-graphic-images-public-records-debate/

 

[Chris Craig]

Damn, you can see the hotel room we stayed in from that last photo. Brutal.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I linked the post.

Yes, you did. I was simply saying the morbid aspect is what's being generally pushed, so I hadn't read further. Using the reddit post as an example, as it was already in the thread.

I'm not being critical of you, Sly. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I finally had a chance to read it. It reads like the theory is that seeing these images would make people more likely to vote to remove the AR15?
I don't even know how that would be possible... but assuming you could. A hunting rifle would cause far more damage.

A hunting round like the .308 is 3 times the mass of the .223 or 5.56 rounds being used in these AR15 shootings, and as such, has MUCH higher kinetic energy. The 30-06 produces even more energy and velocity than the .308, and is a heavier load.

We're talking hamburger. No joke.

And if those calibers kick too hard, a .243 has nearly no kick and will do the same thing as the .223 or 5.56 to a body.

And you can get 30 round mags for these hunting rifles as well. You can make these magazines in your garage in an afternoon with typical tools and some hardware from Lowes. If you make a few fixtures you can probably do it in under an hour.

And if you outlaw all semi-auto rifles the market will be wide open for home made rifles. And full auto is easier and cheaper to make than semi-auto. And over half of the states in the country will refuse to enforce the ban. I made a post with videos covering what rudimentary tools are needed to make guns.

So ban semi-automatic rifles (which is about the only way we're going to ban the AR15, as far as I can tell) and we'll have cheaply available, untraceable, fully automatic rifles instead of the situation we have now. Which means it will be easier and likely cheaper for criminals and deranged psychos to get even more dangerous guns than it is now.

But it will be harder for law abiding citizens to get them...

 

[crandc]

In other words, nothing works so do nothing and hope you can run faster than a bullet. True, other countries don't have this problem but nothing to see. Nothing works. Evil minded people will find a way. Let children be massacred and call yourself pro life.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

In other words, nothing works so do nothing and hope you can run faster than a bullet. True, other countries don't have this problem but nothing to see. Nothing works. Evil minded people will find a way. Let children be massacred and call yourself pro life.

what such hyperbole!!!
@Phatguysrule has long been an advocate of better mental health care and social services to counter the mental aspect of these deranged shooters.

why do so many people make such hyperbole posts like this???
This is almost as bad as fake news or those creating false narratives.

I do believe one thing. If we don't stop this hyperbole reaction, nothing. Nothing will get solved. No one can work together and compromise when such opinions are prevalent.

@crandc show one post where anyone here has ever said nothing should be done??

ill sit patiently and wait.

 

[Phatguysrule]

In other words, nothing works so do nothing and hope you can run faster than a bullet. True, other countries don't have this problem but nothing to see. Nothing works. Evil minded people will find a way. Let children be massacred and call yourself pro life.

My position is, and has been, that focusing on removing or further restricting guns is doing exactly nothing.

I've proposed far more solutions than pretty much anybody in this forum. And my proposals don't require a constitutional amendment or violating the constitutional rights of hundreds of millions of Americans, or turning tens of millions of law abiding Americans into criminals. Which by default makes them far easier solutions to enact, especially individually.

I've advocating for increased access to education (preferably universal).

I've advocated for increased access to healthcare (including mental health) (preferably universal).

I've advocated for increased mental health provider presence in schools.

I've advocated for improved social safety net.

I've advocated for federal funding to cover improving procedures in, and hardening of, our schools to make them harder to enter by force.

I've advocated for a federal law which would require states to use their current equipment capabilities to mark the ID of weapons restricted individuals, and make lending, gifting, or selling guns to restricted individuals a felony. Once again, all states already have this ability, including the equipment and the database of dangerous people. A database that should by nationalized if it is not already.

I've advocated for a free website of the above national database in which anybody (even black market criminals) can look up the ID number of these people to verify that the ID is up to date verify firearm restriction status.

I've advocated for a tax credit for approved gun safety courses and continuing courses annually.

If you can find somebody who has brought more solutions and information to the table on reducing gun deaths please point them out.

 

[crandc]

Yes, you have made good proposals. But it seems every proposal a chorus of that won't work and nothing is what we end up with.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Yes, you have made good proposals. But it seems every proposal a chorus of that won't work and nothing is what we end up with.

As long as we keep pushing for something that has never worked (prohibition of something hundreds of millions of Americans love) then we will continue to end up with nothing.

Oregon and the entire West Coast has been ramping up gun laws for decades and violent crime and murder rates (including gun crime and murder) have only gotten worse.

I'm not claiming that the laws made crime worse, but it certainly hasn't reduced crime.

This is not the kind of thing you can solve in this country by restricting law abiding citizens. We've seen it time and time again.

We need solutions the whole country can get behind. We need to educate our law abiding citizens and give them tools to help us succeed.

 

[crandc]

Why don't other countries have the problem? Yes, occasionally, but not constantly. We all have mental health problems, we all had Covid isolation, we all play video games.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Why don't other countries have the problem? Yes, occasionally, but not constantly. We all have mental health problems, we all had Covid isolation, we all play video games.

Largely because other countries have far better access to healthcare and education, and better social safety nets.

The countries that have high ratios of households with guns (some as high and higher than the US) have far better access to education about gun safety, including storage, etc.

These are things we can absolutely address right now with no changes to the constitution or relying on a conservative supreme court changing position or 20 plus states to make a 180 from the direction they've been trending for decades (including a steep trend toward less regulation recently).

We could address so much right now.

*Edit* Not to mention the vast majority of our mass shootings are due to lack of opportunities. Mainly underprivileged Americans who don't have options getting screwed over by the judicial system and/or police. Or they are the children of these situations. So they wind up joining gangs or getting into other small time crime. And we do this at higher rates than most other countries.

All of that combined in a country of 350 million people who are surrounded by so much wealth leaves ample opportunity for horrible things like this to happen.

 

[crandc]

Agree with most but often mass shooters are white and middle class. Not the very poor. And male.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Agree with most but often mass shooters are white and middle class. Not the very poor. And male.

Agreed. The scary ones who randomly attack gun free zones tend to be white middle class males during a murder/suicide.

Middle class Americans don't have very good access or guidance for healthcare. And they are often stressing about what a failure they are and terrified of winding up under a bridge.

But the vast majority of our "mass shootings" and even "school shootings" are gang related, at night. Which is still a problem. But not a problem that can be solved by restrictions.