Oregon- One Screwed Up State

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Thanks for sending us your rejects, California. Now we're as screwed up as you.

First, we pass a double tax law designed solely for the state union retirement program that has bankrupted us that is already causing businesses to move and people to be unemployed (ABM and I had lunch last Friday at my favorite Philly Cheesesteak place and the retired owner had to lay off at least one person and come back to work due to the business tax measure- that makes over 350 layoffs I personally know of due solely to the tax measures).

Now, in Sunday's Oregonian there are a couple of articles. One portrays the state putting a lot of money and time into catching & fining out of work people working as handymen since it takes work away from constructions unions (and non unions workers as well) since they are neither licensed or bonded. OK, I get that to a certain degree. Then, on the same page they talk about victims not getting restitution since the state has neither the time nor resources to go after the people who owe them the money. So let's see............ tax laws designed specifically to close businesses, create more unemployment specifically so retired union workers who have unbelievable sweetheart deals can continue, chasing down and fining unemployed people facing the loss of their homes and keep their kids, literally, fed but turning their backs on victims of crime and the restitution that is rightfully due them since it's not tied somehow to a union. And oh yeah, let's certainly not forget our tax dollars paying for thousands of abortions thru the health plan rather than things like fixing kids teeth... all the time watching property taxes go up and property values go down.

Yep, one screwed up state. Oh well, my little rant for the day.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

Thanks for sending us your rejects, California. Now we're as screwed up as you.

First, we pass a double tax law designed solely for the state union retirement program that has bankrupted us that is already causing businesses to move and people to be unemployed (ABM and I had lunch last Friday at my favorite Philly Cheesesteak place and the retired owner had to lay off at least one person and come back to work due to the business tax measure- that makes over 350 layoffs I personally know of due solely to the tax measures).

Now, in Sunday's Oregonian there are a couple of articles. One portrays the state putting a lot of money and time into catching & fining out of work people working as handymen since it takes work away from constructions unions (and non unions workers as well) since they are neither licensed or bonded. OK, I get that to a certain degree. Then, on the same page they talk about victims not getting restitution since the state has neither the time nor resources to go after the people who owe them the money. So let's see............ tax laws designed specifically to close businesses, create more unemployment specifically so retired union workers who have unbelievable sweetheart deals can continue, chasing down and fining unemployed people facing the loss of their homes and keep their kids, literally, fed but turning their backs on victims of crime and the restitution that is rightfully due them since it's not tied somehow to a union. And oh yeah, let's certainly not forget our tax dollars paying for thousands of abortions thru the health plan rather than things like fixing kids teeth... all the time watching property taxes go up and property values go down.

Yep, one screwed up state. Oh well, my little rant for the day.

Definitely a rant...

but what's your favorite cheese steak place?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Definitely a rant...

but what's your favorite cheese steak place?

Oh man, it's a place dedicated to philly cheesdesteak sandwiches on Milwaukie Ave.. Here's the link...

www.phillypdx.com

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

Oh man, it's a place dedicated to philly cheesdesteak sandwiches on Milwaukie Ave.. Here's the link...

www.phillypdx.com

Never been there, but I drove by it the other day and almost stopped...I spent some of my youth in Philadelphia and I love a good cheese steak!

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Never been there, but I drove by it the other day and almost stopped...I spent some of my youth in Philadelphia and I love a good cheese steak!

The one & only complaint I have is the roll it's served on is rather pedestrian.

 

[Minstrel]

Thanks for sending us your rejects, California. Now we're as screwed up as you.

First, we pass a double tax law designed solely for the state union retirement program that has bankrupted us that is already causing businesses to move and people to be unemployed (ABM and I had lunch last Friday at my favorite Philly Cheesesteak place and the retired owner had to lay off at least one person and come back to work due to the business tax measure- that makes over 350 layoffs I personally know of due solely to the tax measures).

Now, in Sunday's Oregonian there are a couple of articles. One portrays the state putting a lot of money and time into catching & fining out of work people working as handymen since it takes work away from constructions unions (and non unions workers as well) since they are neither licensed or bonded. OK, I get that to a certain degree. Then, on the same page they talk about victims not getting restitution since the state has neither the time nor resources to go after the people who owe them the money. So let's see............ tax laws designed specifically to close businesses, create more unemployment specifically so retired union workers who have unbelievable sweetheart deals can continue, chasing down and fining unemployed people facing the loss of their homes and keep their kids, literally, fed but turning their backs on victims of crime and the restitution that is rightfully due them since it's not tied somehow to a union. And oh yeah, let's certainly not forget our tax dollars paying for thousands of abortions thru the health plan rather than things like fixing kids teeth... all the time watching property taxes go up and property values go down.

Yep, one screwed up state. Oh well, my little rant for the day.

u mad?

 

[THE HCP]

Where did you guys go? Philly's over in Sellwood?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Where did you guys go? Philly's over in Sellwood?

Yeah. Lots of thin steak, grilled onions, cheese... just loaded. About $7.50.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

u mad?

Oh, I dunno. No state should be run by a union. This one is and it's no wonder it's bankrupt and all we get taxes & lies, taxes & lies and more taxes & lies.

But I feel the same way about states led by dirt dry conservatives too long. That creates its own set of problems.

Oregon is becoming the Detroit of the west coast.

And then I read that victims of crimes aren't getting, or going to get, restitution that is due them because all the money is spent on un ion retirements and chasing down people trying to work to keep themselves from becoming homeless and I just have to wonder how screwed up this all is.

 

[ehizzy3]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

Oh, I dunno. No state should be run by a union. This one is and it's no wonder it's bankrupt and all we get taxes & lies, taxes & lies and more taxes & lies.

But I feel the same way about states led by dirt dry conservatives too long. That creates its own set of problems.

Oregon is becoming the Detroit of the west coast.

And then I read that victims of crimes aren't getting, or going to get, restitution that is due them because all the money is spent on un ion retirements and chasing down people trying to work to keep themselves from becoming homeless and I just have to wonder how screwed up this all is.

At least our taxes are lower than most states and our business climate is better than most as well... Think about how crappy it would be to live in a state with a bad business and personal tax climate!

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

At least our taxes are lower than most states and our business climate is better than most as well... Think about how crappy it would be to live in a state with a bad business and personal tax climate!

I wonder if that's really true.

Property taxes are almost double Washington's. Higher than CA as well. My in laws in Chico have twice the SF we do and pay less than half in property taxes. Our business taxes just went up vastly- why does this improve our ability to hold businesses?

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

I wonder if that's really true.

Property taxes are almost double Washington's. Higher than CA as well. My in laws in Chico have twice the SF we do and pay less than half in property taxes. Our business taxes just went up vastly- why does this improve our ability to hold businesses?

Just reporting the facts. Check them out. I researched last week because everyone everywhere believes their taxes are too high...I was surprised by how Oregon rated:

Here is the research for FY 2010. (It's a long report check pages 2-3 for map and chart)
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp59.pdf
Oregon is ranked 14th best this year in corporate tax climate. For the past 4 years they were in the top 10.

The state/local tax burden is below average...9.4% vs. an average nationwide of 9.7%
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/335.html

I don't get where property taxes are twice as high in OR compared to Washington...the most recent data I could find WA and OR were ranked 21st and 22nd in property tax per $1000 of value and OREGON was lower. WA rate 9.88 : OR rate 9.49 : Nationwide rate 9.64.
http://www.nahb.org/fileUpload_details.aspx?contentTypeID=3&contentID=76984&subContentID=105281

*The property tax stuff is about 4 years old so a little dated...but the growth rate of property taxes in OR is capped so it's not like it radically increased in that time.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

I wonder if that's really true.

Property taxes are almost double Washington's. Higher than CA as well. My in laws in Chico have twice the SF we do and pay less than half in property taxes. Our business taxes just went up vastly- why does this improve our ability to hold businesses?

And to address your specific issues...

SF is not the important item here...it's the taxable value of the property. Oregon limits how much that value can go up annually, but without knowing taxable values the anecdote doesn't help to understand tax rates.

California's property taxes are one of the lowest in the whole nation (45th)...but this works for them because their median home value is double the median home value in Oregon/WA...so they get the same number of dollars per home...

Business taxes DID just go up, I guess I just wouldn't call it "vastly"...

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Just reporting the facts. Check them out. I researched last week because everyone everywhere believes their taxes are too high...I was surprised by how Oregon rated:

Here is the research for FY 2010. (It's a long report check pages 2-3 for map and chart)
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp59.pdf
Oregon is ranked 14th best this year in corporate tax climate. For the past 4 years they were in the top 10.

The state/local tax burden is below average...9.4% vs. an average nationwide of 9.7%
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/335.html

I don't get where property taxes are twice as high in OR compared to Washington...the most recent data I could find WA and OR were ranked 21st and 22nd in property tax per $1000 of value and OREGON was lower. WA rate 9.88 : OR rate 9.49 : Nationwide rate 9.64.
http://www.nahb.org/fileUpload_details.aspx?contentTypeID=3&contentID=76984&subContentID=105281

*The property tax stuff is about 4 years old so a little dated...but the growth rate of property taxes in OR is capped so it's not like it radically increased in that time.

Interesting stuff.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

And to address your specific issues...

SF is not the important item here...it's the taxable value of the property. Oregon limits how much that value can go up annually, but without knowing taxable values the anecdote doesn't help to understand tax rates.

California's property taxes are one of the lowest in the whole nation (45th)...but this works for them because their median home value is double the median home value in Oregon/WA...so they get the same number of dollars per home...

Business taxes DID just go up, I guess I just wouldn't call it "vastly"...

You an honest poster. I appreciate that.

 

[Paxil]

Since Oregon doesn't have a sales tax like most states I would expect our property taxes to be higher.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Since Oregon doesn't have a sales tax like most states I would expect our property taxes to be higher.

I guess I don't get it.

Washington has, depending on the county, an 8.8% sales tax, 50% lower property tax and they are doing OK. And that's after driving a lot of business away like Oregon is doing now.

Oregon has an income tax that seems to do OK, and twice the property tax of Washington- and yet we're broke.

There's no way a sales tax in Oregon to replace the income tax, and lowering property taxes 50% is going to bring in more revenue. No freaking way. So why is Oregon is such sad shape? I mean, what else can it be but pers?

 

[maxiep]

I hate to say it, but Oregon needs to wean itself off of its current taxing structure. We need a sales tax. Yeah, it sucks to have to pay your taxes every time you buy something, but the curve is smoother. If you look at tax revenues from states with sales taxes and tax revenues for states without them (relying on property or income tax), you'll see the curve is smoother. What hurts government is what hurts the private sector--predictability. Consumption has a lower beta than income or property values. If you can't predict what the landscape is going to be, then you can't plan.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

I guess I don't get it.

Washington has, depending on the county, an 8.8% sales tax, 50% lower property tax and they are doing OK. And that's after driving a lot of business away like Oregon is doing now.

Oregon has an income tax that seems to do OK, and twice the property tax of Washington- and yet we're broke.

There's no way a sales tax in Oregon to replace the income tax, and lowering property taxes 50% is going to bring in more revenue. No freaking way. So why is Oregon is such sad shape? I mean, what else can it be but pers?

Except Washington and Oregon have almost exactly the same property tax rate...California is where the rate is 50%. Unless the numbers I found are wrong... So if we have the same property and income tax rates as Washington, but no sales tax, I'd expect Oregon brings in a lot less than Washington...but that depends on total Real property values and incomes, too...damn complicating...

I definitely think PERS is a racket, at least as it was when I knew any of the funding details. It's my understanding that Kulongoski was able to push through some reform but I have no idea what real financial impact that had...so ...maybe?

I hate to say it, but Oregon needs to wean itself off of its current taxing structure. We need a sales tax. Yeah, it sucks to have to pay your taxes every time you buy something, but the curve is smoother. If you look at tax revenues from states with sales taxes and tax revenues for states without them (relying on property or income tax), you'll see the curve is smoother. What hurts government is what hurts the private sector--predictability. Consumption has a lower beta than income or property values. If you can't predict what the landscape is going to be, then you can't plan.

I agree greater predictability is definitely needed. I'm not sure it's a sales tax, though. For one it's political suicide and the other more subjective reason is that it's a regressive tax...it hits poor people more than it hits the rich making the effective tax percentage higher for those that make the least. The reason is that the poor need to spend all their income to survive so all their income gets hit by the sales tax. The rich save/invest a portion of their income so it doesn't get taxed.

Ignoring that, though, it makes governmental budgeting super difficult when revenue swings wildly upward in a strong economy and wildly downward in a slow economy...

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

You an honest poster. I appreciate that.

Thanks, honestly I'm trying to understand it. People always bring their own personal agenda to this kind of stuff and I've been trying to really figure out if our state is wasteful, underfunded, overtaxed, etc...it's not nearly as clear-cut as I hoped when I started looking at it.

I had always assumed that Oregon was suffering because of a low property tax rate...because that's what I'd read a while ago, but I'm not seeing it in the numbers. By the same token when people say how overtaxed Oregon is, I didn't see that either... I'm just confused...

 

[mook]

The interesting thing to me is that businesses generally try to sell to consumers on something other than price. If you sell a laser printer, you add in different features so that it's impossible to compare apples-to-apples with other laser printers. You do what you can to add value to the product so you are selling quality rather than the bargain basement deal, because there's always somebody else out there who will lower their profits even more than you. For every Walmart, there are a hundred different boutique stores that compete based on specialization, quality and overall value. And for every Walmart there are a lot of businesses that fail because they just can't quite cut their prices as much as Walmart does.

Yet when we discuss "favorable business environments," it's always about taxes. In other words, what is the state government's price for doing business in a particular state. Does our state offer a lower bargain basement tax rate than the next state? If not, we'd better or all our jobs will go over there!

Instead, we should run our state governments more like businesses when it comes to thinking about taxes. If a state has very little to offer in educated workers, nice work environment, logistic advantages like quality ports and highways, a good education system, etc, then yes, you should race as quickly as you can to the bottom of the barrel on tax rates and market your state as the Walmart of tax rates. But keep in mind there can be only a couple of Walmarts in any market, and if somebody else figures out how to do it even cheaper (like, say, in India) well it sucks to be you. Because you cut profits without gaining customers.

But if your state has a lot of innate advantages, as Oregon does, then it's really not in Oregon's best interests to be the low-cost leader in corporate taxes. The key is to invest the premium you charge in taxes on things that are worthwhile, investing them in the future of the state. And that's the real issue. Are the corporate taxes Oregon charges adding value to the state that will attract more businesses, or are they wastes of time and effort (as cited in BP's original post)?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I agree greater predictability is definitely needed. I'm not sure it's a sales tax, though. For one it's political suicide and the other more subjective reason is that it's a regressive tax...it hits poor people more than it hits the rich making the effective tax percentage higher for those that make the least. The reason is that the poor need to spend all their income to survive so all their income gets hit by the sales tax. The rich save/invest a portion of their income so it doesn't get taxed.

A large portion of poor people's income (and that of the middle-class, for that matter) goes to pay for housing and utilities, which are non-taxed expenditures. Further, many states' sales taxes don't apply to food purchases, further limiting the impact on lower-income residents. In reality, the rich spend a higher percentage of their income on taxable items than the non-rich do, so it's actually more likely to end up progressive rather than regressive.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

A large portion of poor people's income (and that of the middle-class, for that matter) goes to pay for housing and utilities, which are non-taxed expenditures. Further, many states' sales taxes don't apply to food purchases, further limiting the impact on lower-income residents. In reality, the rich spend a higher percentage of their income on taxable items than the non-rich do, so it's actually more likely to end up progressive rather than regressive.

I was intentionally avoiding the non-taxable aspect just because it gets complicated...while it's true that some things are usually exempted...whether it's progressive or regressive is determined on each individual's spending habits rather than broadly based on their financial standing...so it is unevenly applied...sometimes widely so.

Also, it is more regressive than the standard income tax. There is a minimum threshhold for taxation of income, there is no minimum threshhold for Sales tax. So the very poor that aren't subject to income tax will end up paying sales tax...so that aspect is definitely more regressive.

So in some cases if you factor in everything it might still be progressive, but much less so than income taxes.

 

[jlprk]

Here is the research for FY 2010. (It's a long report check pages 2-3 for map and chart)
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp59.pdf
Oregon is ranked 14th best this year in corporate tax climate. For the past 4 years they were in the top 10...the most recent data I could find WA and OR were ranked 21st and 22nd in property tax per $1000 of value

Fantastic research, Blazer Hippie. I've been asking for a non-blog link to answer 2 questions, and you answered the first, partially.

Complaint 1) I heard on a conservative blog that Oregon has the 4th highest tax burden! So do Washington and Idaho!

My response 1) What is the ranking of states by taxes, including the half which are better than average, not just the ones which are worse? (Your source ranks states by business taxes only, but it's the best source anyone's come up with yet.)

Complaint 2) I heard from my friend, the alcoholic restaurant owner, that my state is losing 10,000 jobs (alternative dollars version: its economy is losing $50 billion) due to the 0.1% tax increase! He's moving his greasy spoon to Kansas and we should all be sorry! (alternative layoff version: He laid off someone he was going to lay off anyway, due to his incompetent business ability, and eased his conscience with the tax excuse.)

My response 2) What is the list of states with the number of jobs lost for each state (or gained, for half of them), and the amount of money damages to the economy, due to taxes causing business owners to move?

 

[barfo]

The interesting thing to me is that businesses generally try to sell to consumers on something other than price. If you sell a laser printer, you add in different features so that it's impossible to compare apples-to-apples with other laser printers. You do what you can to add value to the product so you are selling quality rather than the bargain basement deal, because there's always somebody else out there who will lower their profits even more than you. For every Walmart, there are a hundred different boutique stores that compete based on specialization, quality and overall value. And for every Walmart there are a lot of businesses that fail because they just can't quite cut their prices as much as Walmart does.

Yet when we discuss "favorable business environments," it's always about taxes. In other words, what is the state government's price for doing business in a particular state. Does our state offer a lower bargain basement tax rate than the next state? If not, we'd better or all our jobs will go over there!

Instead, we should run our state governments more like businesses when it comes to thinking about taxes. If a state has very little to offer in educated workers, nice work environment, logistic advantages like quality ports and highways, a good education system, etc, then yes, you should race as quickly as you can to the bottom of the barrel on tax rates and market your state as the Walmart of tax rates. But keep in mind there can be only a couple of Walmarts in any market, and if somebody else figures out how to do it even cheaper (like, say, in India) well it sucks to be you. Because you cut profits without gaining customers.

But if your state has a lot of innate advantages, as Oregon does, then it's really not in Oregon's best interests to be the low-cost leader in corporate taxes. The key is to invest the premium you charge in taxes on things that are worthwhile, investing them in the future of the state. And that's the real issue. Are the corporate taxes Oregon charges adding value to the state that will attract more businesses, or are they wastes of time and effort (as cited in BP's original post)?

I like this post. It's not all about taxes!

barfo

 

[jlprk]

Yes, there are 2 other issues. In other decades, the issues have been law and order, and military readiness.

Year after year, decade after decade, these are the 3 things that Republicans talk about. Now that we're temporarily all warred out, and mandatory sentencing guidelines have made 1/4 of all men a felon (1/2 in Michigan), all that's left for today's Weekly Outrage is taxes.

The idea is to fight social progress and keep pushing backward, backward. Kill, imprison, and stop any common efforts like the few good things that government does.

 

[maxiep]

The idea is to fight social progress and keep pushing backward, backward. Kill, imprison, and stop any common efforts like the few good things that government does.

Interesting. What would you call "social progress"? Would it perhaps mean a greater role for government, increased regulation, a greater tax burden and less freedom? Because that sounds like progress I could do without.

 

[maxiep]

BTW, we shouldn't kid ourselves. It's mostly about the kind of profit you can make, which has to do with taxes and their impact on the bottom line. Most states offer some kind of economic assistance if you're going to bring jobs into the state; Oregon increases the tax burden. Great strategy.

As for the "educated workforce". if you can't find the kind of workforce you want, you import people. In this economy, people will move anywhere for jobs.

I keep hearing that Oregon has this really business friendly economy by most in here. If that's the case, how does one explain the 11.0% U3 unemployment rate, which is 1.3 percentage points (or 11.8%) higher than the national average? Furthermore, the recession has been deeper and longer in the Beaver State for any other state not named Michigan.

http://www.qualityinfo.org/olmisj/OlmisZine

We've seen an exodus of jobs going to places where they actually don't treat profit as something illegal to be confiscated.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

...mandatory sentencing guidelines have made 1/4 of all men a felon (1/2 in Michigan)...

I assume that this was just intentional hyperbole rather than an attempted factual claim, right?