OT:Larry Bird

[STOMP]

Rodman and Kukoc were role players, good at what they did but limited skills. Rodman was a great rebounder and still a pretty good defender in his mid-30s with the Bulls, but pretty useless on offense. Kukoc was a good offensive player, but a horrible defender. Every team needs role players, and they deserve credit for what they did, but then so do the Rockets role players - even if all they did was get the ball into Hakeem on the low block and knock down open 3-pointers. That was their role and they did it well enough to help the team in two championships.

Well enough must mean Hakeem being able to carry the club despite his teammates being below average. Yes they shot a lot of 3's, but they only made 33%.

You keep siting PER yet are avoiding my link showing that only HO and Thorpe posted above average (15) PER scores. For reference, this year's Blazers have 6 guys in their rotation at or above a 15 PER + Steve Blake at 14.9

STOMP

 

[handiman]

Yup. Elite players have those things all the time, which is what gives them the edge to be among the top 0.01%.

If they have the ability to "take it up a notch," they'd do it all the time...

It would behoove you to put down the statistics books once in a while and read up on exercise physiology and psychology...

 

[Minstrel]

It would behoove you to put down the statistics books once in a while and read up on exercise physiology and psychology...

Actually, my field of study was cognitive science, which includes psychology and the peripheral nervous system. I don't think notions of "clutch" have any grounding in science; it's entirely folk wisdom.

I have no training in statistics, beyond the standard university undergraduate courses. So, I have no books on statistics.

 

[THE HCP]

You know this thread was about me pissing with Larry Legend and now look at it! I hate how threads just twist and turn like this!!!!!!

 

[Boob-No-More]

Well enough must mean Hakeem being able to carry the club despite his teammates being below average. Yes they shot a lot of 3's, but they only made 33%.

I already said I agreed with the assertion that the first Rockets championship was Hakeem and a bunch of good role players.

The may have only made 33% of their 3s in the regular season, but look at their play-off numbers. Smith, Maxwell, Horry and Cassell all shot considerably better from 3-point range in the play-offs than the regular season.

You keep siting PER yet are avoiding my link showing that only HO and Thorpe posted above average (15) PER scores. For reference, this year's Blazers have 6 guys in their rotation at or above a 15 PER + Steve Blake at 14.9

I'm not avoiding anything. I already said they were good role players, not above average starters. They all contributed - especially in the play-offs. I don't have play-off PERS for them, but I bet Horry and Cassell, and likely Smith all had higher PERs in the play-offs than the regular season. Horry and Cassell, because they had shown considerable improvement between the start of their rookie season and the finals, and Smith due to his hot 3-point shooting in the play-offs.

Not sure why is all matters, and why we're only talking about PER. Ultimately, it came down to match-ups in the finals vs. the Knicks. In both personel and stats, that's one of the most evenly matched finals I remmber. Hakeem vs. Ewing, Thorpe vs. Oakley, Maxwell vs. Starks, Smith vs. Harper, etc. What is ultimately came down to was Hakeem was better than Ewing and the Rockets role players hit some big shots in some close games.

BNM

 

[STOMP]

I already said I agreed with the assertion that the first Rockets championship was Hakeem and a bunch of good role players.

Not sure why is all matters, and why we're only talking about PER.

because it was the measure you used to show how well Drexler played for them. By the PER metric, 15 is an average player. So by the standard you laid out, all but 2 of the Rockets were were below average nba players. You called HO's supporting cast "a group of VERY good role players"... and described their role... "all they did was get the ball into Hakeem on the low block and knock down open 3-pointers"... well 33% from 3's leaves a lot to be desired IMO. To their credit they did get the ball into Hakeem, but I don't think thats showing enough to call them average let alone good. My opinion of them is more in line both with what PER reflects and Denny Crane's assessment of them as "pretty weak". The Rockets won despite HO's supporting cast... he was also the DPOY in that first title season

Again, the reason I initially got in this discussion about the GOAT is to suggest that if titles are being considered then the talent level of a guy's teammates should be as well.

btw... your Sampson response slipped by me but it plays right into this.

Yep, but Jordan was already starting to dominate as a rookie, and Sampson was a 20/10 guy at the time - something Jordan never had as a teammate in his entire NBA career.

Jordan was shelved his 2nd year with a broken foot. All other things staying the same, RS and MJ would have only been healthy in Mike's rookie year in the league. Maybe they would have won a title that single year, but thats obviously a narrower window then Mike enjoyed playing with PIP and the rest of the talented Bulls.

 

[Boob-No-More]

because it was the measure you used to show how well Drexler played for them. By the PER metric, 15 is an average player.

Wrong. PER = 15.0 is average NBA STARTER, not average NBA player. By definition an average starter is a better than an average player.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

The Rockets won despite HO's supporting cast... he was also the DPOY in that first title season.

Now you're onto something. Defense and rebounding wins games - especially in the play-offs. This is actually, at least as important (I'd argue more important) than PER which is heavily biased towards offensive stats. It's not like Dennis Rodman had a high PER on those Bulls championship teams, but he was still a vital piece thanks to his rebounding and defense.

That first Houston title team was a very good rebounding team (with Hakeem and Thorpe both averaging double digits in rebounds), and pretty good defensively. Again, Hakeem deserves a lot of the credit for this, but he had help.

BNM

 

[STOMP]

Wrong. PER = 15.0 is average NBA STARTER, not average NBA player. By definition an average starter is a better than an average player.

Does this change my point about HO's supporting cast not being very good in any way???

STOMP

 

[Boob-No-More]

Okay... according to your measure, those Rockets had three starters who probably should have been on the bench. I don't think that changes my point about HO's supporting cast not being very good

STOMP

It's extremely rare for a team, even a championship team, to have all five starters with a PER above 15. For every above average starter in the league, there is another one that's below average (more, or less). It's not uncommon for even championship teams to have two starters with a PER below 15. Three starters with a PER below 15 on a championship team is a bit unusual, but not at all rare.

And, as I have stated repeatedly, I'd be surprised if more of the Houston players didn't have PERS above 15 for the post season. Smith and Horry both had PERs of 14.2 during the regular season. Horry had higher scoring and rebounding averages in the play-offs and Smith shot extremely well from 3-point range in the play-offs. That should have been enough to move their PERs from 14.2 to over 15 in the play-offs. So, that's two more above average starters, to go with Hakeem and Thorpe, in the play-offs, when it counted, than the regular season.

BNM

 

[huevonkiller]

It's extremely rare for a team, even a championship team, to have all five starters with a PER above 15. For every above average starter in the league, there is another one that's below average (more, or less). It's not uncommon for even championship teams to have two starters with a PER below 15. Three starters with a PER below 15 on a championship team is a bit unusual, but not at all rare.

And, as I have stated repeatedly, I'd be surprised if more of the Houston players didn't have PERS above 15 for the post season. Smith and Horry both had PERs of 14.2 during the regular season. Horry had higher scoring and rebounding averages in the play-offs and Smith shot extremely well from 3-point range in the play-offs. That should have been enough to move their PERs from 14.2 to over 15 in the play-offs. So, that's two more above average starters, to go with Hakeem and Thorpe, in the play-offs, when it counted, than the regular season.

BNM

Horry, Cassell, and Drexler had PERs over 15 in the playoffs those two years. In addition to your comments about PER not measuring defense at all, I think you have a point.