OT: LeBron trying to top Kobe in NYC.

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KingSpeed

KingSpeed

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Only 9 minutes into the game and LeBron has 18 points.
 
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Re: LeBron trying to top Kobe in NYC.

Maybe he will break Wilt the Stilts record......and I am not referring to number of women he had sex with. :ghoti:
 
I doubt he will break 61. Mainly because it will be a blowout.
 
It's not on national TV. He just missed two FTs. Kobe had 18 in the first quarter of his game in NYC so LeBron is even with him so far.
 
James at the buzzer!

20 points in the first quarter. Better than Kobe. And 5 rebounds too!
 
Kobe does not have the time to be upset now - since Lord Bargnani is currently whipping his Lakers in Toronto...
 
LeBron with 4 points in the second quarter so far. About 4 minutes left.
 
Pretty close to halfway there points wise, and the game is pretty close.
 
42, 10, & 8

That's more impressive than 61 to me. 40 points and you still get 10 assists with lots of time to play? Amazing.
 
LeBron already played 37 minutes though, I think both games are close either way.
 
KingSpeed said:
42, 10, & 8

That's more impressive than 61 to me. 40 points and you still get 10 assists with lots of time to play? Amazing.
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Totally agree, and that is why LeBron is the best right now, and will be considered one of the best ever when he's done. And *blasphemy* could be the best ever when it's all said and done. But I won't jump there quite yet.

Kobe didn't pull down one rebound the night he scored 61, and I *think* he had 2 assists? I may not have even seen that stat. But I do know he pulled down 0 boards.
 
The Professional Fan said:
Totally agree, and that is why LeBron is the best right now, and will be considered one of the best ever when he's done. And *blasphemy* could be the best ever when it's all said and done. But I won't jump there quite yet.

Kobe didn't pull down one rebound the night he scored 61, and I *think* he had 2 assists? I may not have even seen that stat. But I do know he pulled down 0 boards.
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3 assists, and Kobe shot better and in less time. I don't think LeBron can touch Jordan yet, I wouldn't even consider it; he's got nothing over him empirically or in other fashions. I do think he's already a HOFer though.
 
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huevonkiller said:
I don't think LeBron can touch Jordan yet, I wouldn't even consider it; he's got nothing over him empirically or in other fashions. I do think he's already a HOFer though.
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Statistically, he's matching Jordan pretty well, actually.

Looking at their PERs at the same age:

Jordan at 21: 25.8
Jordan at 22: 27.5
Jordan at 23: 29.8
Jordan at 24: 31.7

James at 21: 28.1
James at 22: 24.5
James at 23: 29.5
James at 24: 31.5

James was better at 21 and worse at 22, but outside of that, they both basically on the same expressway. I'd say that, so far, they're at least comparably great and the best two players of the last three decades or so.
 
Minstrel said:
Statistically, he's matching Jordan pretty well, actually.

Looking at their PERs at the same age:

Jordan at 21: 25.8
Jordan at 22: 27.5
Jordan at 23: 29.8
Jordan at 24: 31.7

James at 21: 28.1
James at 22: 24.5
James at 23: 29.5
James at 24: 31.5

James was better at 21 and worse at 22, but outside of that, they both basically on the same expressway. I'd say that, so far, they're at least comparably great and the best two players of the last three decades or so.
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Yes very nice, but LeBron was at 33 PER just a month ago. Who knows where he ends up? Jordan didn't play with as many touch free throws either, I'd always give him the edge.

Minstrel, Per is a nice Barometer but not the end-all. I think you cite it too much personally.
 
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huevonkiller said:
In 2002-2003 Stern told the refs to call more perimeter FTs didn't he? Then he reemphasized this in the 04-05 season IIRC.
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Well, the NBA definitely changed how players were allowed to play perimeter defense in order to increase scoring. And I would agree that made a difference in players ability to score. It made it easier. Jordan played in the Pat Riley sludge era. Slow, plodding, hacking every one, boring as shit basketball. But Jordan overcame, and did what he does. Obviously Jordan is still the best of all time, but if you could combine Jordan and Magic for an entire career's worth of stats, I might have to lean that way for all time greatness (LeBron). I believe Magic is the 2nd best player of all time, for the simple reason that he did it all, and won rings in the process. He's a close #2 to Jordan, IMO. LeBron has the tools to be the best "all around" player, AND win rings in the process. I'll have a hard time not giving him the crown if he pulls it off.
 
The Professional Fan said:
Well, the NBA definitely changed how players were allowed to play perimeter defense in order to increase scoring. And I would agree that made a difference in players ability to score. It made it easier. Jordan played in the Pat Riley sludge era. Slow, plodding, hacking every one, boring as shit basketball. But Jordan overcame, and did what he does. Obviously Jordan is still the best of all time, but if you could combine Jordan and Magic for an entire career's worth of stats, I might have to lean that way for all time greatness (LeBron). I believe Magic is the 2nd best player of all time, for the simple reason that he did it all, and won rings in the process. He's a close #2 to Jordan, IMO. LeBron has the tools to be the best "all around" player, AND win rings in the process. I'll have a hard time not giving him the crown if he pulls it off.
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Nice summary at the beginning there, thanks.

Jordan has had a season of 33/8/8, so this Hybrid "Jordan-Magic" type of player that you alluded to already existed before. :) Jordan is just so damn effective at getting to the rack in spite of the less favorable era, he just won't be overcome empirically to me.
 
huevonkiller said:
In 2002-2003 Stern told the refs to call more perimeter FTs didn't he? Then he reemphasized this in the 04-05 season IIRC.
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I don't know what you're specifically referring to here, but no one in the history of the game benefited from more phantom and superstar calls then MJ. The refs treated him as if he was their boss. Are you really contending otherwise?

STOMP
 
huevonkiller said:
Nice summary at the beginning there, thanks.

Jordan has had a season of 33/8/8, so this Hybrid "Jordan-Magic" type of player that you alluded to already existed before. :) Jordan is just so damn effective at getting to the rack in spite of the less favorable era, he just won't be overcome empirically to me.
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Ok. That's fair. Let me pull up some numbers to see if my eyes match historical reality. Because my eyes are telling me a lot about LeBron this season.

Jordan career avg: 30.1 pts, 6.2 rbs, 5.3 ast
LeBron career avg: 27.4 pts, 6.9 rbs, 6.6 ast

Ok. LeBron is in his 6th season.

Jordan's 6th season avg: 33.6 pts, 6.9 rbs, 6.3 ast.
LeBron's 6th season (this season) avg: 28 pts, 7.4 rbs, 6.9 ast.

Interesting. Extremely close. Good to know. Perhaps I've been removed from the Jordan era for so long, I have forgotten how amazing he was (I'm 33 and was part of the entire era). It's just that what I've seen from LeBron this season is so physically dominating, which Jordan really wasn't, he was just better. LeBron is playing in an era full of freaks of nature. 7 foot players at the SF with handles, for example. The athletes are better now, yet LeBron manages to seem so much bigger and stronger than every one.

Let's just say this - I'm pretty excited to see LeBron hit his ceiling. It should be extremely special.
 
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huevonkiller said:
Yes very nice, but LeBron was at 33 PER just a month ago. Who knows where he ends up? Jordan didn't play with as many touch free throws either, I'd always give him the edge.

Minstrel, Per is a nice Barometer but not the end-all. I think you cite it too much personally.
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I didn't say it was the end-all and be-all. But I think it's better support for an opinion than "I'd always give Jordan the edge."

Jordan didn't play with the same hand-checking rules, but he also played against looser defenses in his early prime, which is when he was most productive. The much-celebrated "Jordan rules" that the Pistons played against him was uncommon. In the mid-'90s, that form of physical, punishing defense of slashers became more and more prevalent and now it's the standard defense. So, the era advantages aren't just in James' favour.
 
The Professional Fan said:
Ok. That's fair. Let me pull up some numbers to see if my eyes match historical reality. Because my eyes are telling me a lot about LeBron this season.

Jordan career avg: 30.1 pts, 6.2 rbs, 5.3 ast
LeBron career avg: 27.4 pts, 6.9 rbs, 6.6 ast

Ok. LeBron is in his 6th season.

Jordan's 6th season avg: 33.6 pts, 6.9 rbs, 6.3 ast.
LeBron's 6th season (this season) avg: 28 pts, 7.4 rbs, 6.9 ast.

Interesting. Extremely close. Good to know. Perhaps I've been removed from the Jordan era for so long, I have forgotten how amazing he was (I'm 33 and was part of the entire era). It's just that what I've seen from LeBron this season is so physically dominating, which Jordan really wasn't, he was just better. LeBron is playing in an era full of freaks of nature. 7 foot players at the SF with handles, for example. The athletes are better now, yet LeBron manages to seem so much bigger and stronger than every one.

Let's just say this - I'm pretty excited to see LeBron hit his ceiling. It should be extremely special.
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I don't see how the 80's isn't just as good, that is arguably the best era of basketball as far as a collection of talent is concerned.

Well thankfully Jordan blows away LeBron in True Shooting Percentage, Field Goal percentage, FT%, whatever you want to use. LeBron is on a different tier when it comes to scoring, he'll never have a better individual season and we have yet to see where his "PER" ends up this season. It is sad Jordan's empirical dominance is forgotten to some, he really has no equal.
 
STOMP said:
I don't know what you're specifically referring to here, but no one in the history of the game benefited from more phantom and superstar calls then MJ. The refs treated him as if he was their boss. Are you really contending otherwise?

STOMP
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LeBron gets just as many phantom calls, in a perimeter-oriented era. Don't really know what your point was in bringing that up, it's not even like I made a hyperbole for you to laugh at.

Minstrel said:
I didn't say it was the end-all and be-all. But I think it's better support for an opinion than "I'd always give Jordan the edge."

Jordan didn't play with the same hand-checking rules, but he also played against looser defenses in his early prime, which is when he was most productive. The much-celebrated "Jordan rules" that the Pistons played against him was uncommon. In the mid-'90s, that form of physical, punishing defense of slashers became more and more prevalent and now it's the standard defense. So, the era advantages aren't just in James' favour.
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Well if you want to go by just PER, it has indeed increased for Wing players at a larger rate compared to other positions, since 02-03. And it isn't even an exact formula because Assisted % buckets for example, is estimated for every player. You have to be careful with that.

I never said my verbal flourish was the end all either, but you cite PER way too much Minstrel; I was referring to various threads.
 
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huevonkiller said:
I don't see how the 80's isn't just as good, that is arguably the best era of basketball as far as a collection of talent is concerned.

Well thankfully Jordan blows away LeBron in True Shooting Percentage, Field Goal percentage, FT%, whatever you want to use. LeBron is on a different tier when it comes to scoring, he'll never have a better individual season and we have yet to see where his "PER" ends up this season. It is sad Jordan's empirical dominance is forgotten to some, he really has no equal.
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Collection of talent? Maybe. Athletic ability? No. Today's NBA, top to bottom, is much, much more athletic than the 80's. Not to say today's NBA is smarter, because I don't believe they are, but they are definitely more athletic.

In any case......I'm not in this thread to tear Jordan off the throne in which he so completely deserves. I'm here to say that since Jordan, LeBron has impressed me the most, and he's still young, and he still will do some extremely special things when all is said and done.
 
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