Phoenix Wants Another First Rounder

[NOVoodoo]

The Phoenix Suns have investigated the possibility of another first-round pick beyond their No. 5 and No. 30 slots.

“We’ve talked to a few teams about getting in the draft at different ranges,” Ryan McDonough said. “We have good assets to do that. We have to evaluate all of these guys, figure out where they’re going to go. And then if we can get in at a particular range where a guy is undervalued, we’ll try to get in and get him there.”

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/228059/Suns-Have-Explored-Adding-Additional-First-Round-Pick

It's a weak draft, but if you think about it, Phoenix is probably the most vulnerable target to pawn a first rounder off on. They're in rebuilding mode but lack a lot of great future prospects.

...Gortat to PDX?

 

[Natebishop3]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/228059/Suns-Have-Explored-Adding-Additional-First-Round-Pick

It's a weak draft, but if you think about it, Phoenix is probably the most vulnerable target to pawn a first rounder off on. They're in rebuilding mode but lack a lot of great future prospects.

...Gortat to PDX?

Not a bad idea, but it would eat up a lot of our cap space, and Gortat isn't exactly the kind of player that should be eating up our cap space. Unless we're moving Wes in the deal, which sounds too expensive to me. Wes and #10 for Gortat?

 

[BrianFromWA]

If you do that, don't you then have to blow your entire FA wad on someone like Redick, Evans, etc? Not much help to the bench, if you do that.

 

[Natebishop3]

If you do that, don't you then have to blow your entire FA wad on someone like Redick, Evans, etc? Not much help to the bench, if you do that.

How do you have any wad left Brian? Unless the deal includes someone like Wes, wouldn't the deal have to be #10 + cap space?

 

[BrianFromWA]

I was talking about if Wes went out. But we're thinking the same things.

If you spend #10 to get Gortat, you have about 4-5M in space left. If you send Wes + 10 out, you actually increase cap space by about a million, but you have no SG's other than Barton on the roster. That's why I was saying that you'd basically have to spend most of that 12M or so trying to get someone like Redick/Evans/Ellis/whoever, while still not really bolstering your bench.

 

[Natebishop3]

I was talking about if Wes went out. But we're thinking the same things.

If you spend #10 to get Gortat, you have about 4-5M in space left. If you send Wes + 10 out, you actually increase cap space by about a million, but you have no SG's other than Barton on the roster. That's why I was saying that you'd basically have to spend most of that 12M or so trying to get someone like Redick/Evans/Ellis/whoever, while still not really bolstering your bench.

And none of those three are good options. Rather throw money at Dalembert or hope that Howard signs with Houston so we can trade for Asik.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

"Grading Gortat":

Grading Gortat with respect to his peers

There are 34 centers that played at least 20 minutes per game in at least 40 games this season. Among those, Gortat ranks 24th in points per 40 minutes (14.5), 19th in rebounds per 40 (11.0), 14th in field goal percentage (52.1) and 10th in blocked shots per 40 (2.1). That averages out to about 17th out of 34 regular rotation centers. Right in the middle gets him a C.
Grading Gortat with respect to expectations

Gortat's per 36 averages of 13.0 points, 9.9 rebounds and 52.1 field goal percentage were below his career averages of 13.9, 11.1 and 54.7. However, those are still pretty solid numbers for an NBA center, and he did lead the Suns in rebounds, blocked shots and field goal percentage.
Considering expectations and Gortat's ability versus actual production, I'd give Gortat a C-.
Grading Gortat with respect to improvement

I think it's pretty clear from the above numbers that Gortat did not improve, and in fact took a step back in his play. That gets him an F.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

The #10 pick will take up 1.9 and Freeland another 2.9. If both are traded for Gortat, our cap space only changes around 3M accounting for the extra cap hold and salary difference. At that point we would have a solid starting five with three usable bench players in Leonard, Claver, and Barton along with the rights to Hickson and Maynor.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I've never had the impression that Gortat is any good at all at defense. There are a ton of centers in this draft almost all of which are likely to be better and are certainly cheaper and younger. Why would we do this? Don't make me show you how almost identical JJ Hickson and Gortat's numbers are again.

(My mistake - JJ's were considerably better.)

 

[tester551]

I've never had the impression that Gortat is any good at all at defense. There are a ton of centers in this draft almost all of which are likely to be better and are certainly cheaper and younger. Why would we do this? Don't make me show you how almost identical JJ Hickson and Gortat's numbers are again.

(My mistake - JJ's were considerably better.)

Yep. No interest in Gortat at all.

 

[mook]

Interesting comparison. If you compare Gortat's prior year to this past year for Hickson, Gortat is drastically better. I'd gladly trade the #10 pick for a 2011 Gortat.

Other than Steve Nash leaving, is there anything else that explains Gortat's drop this year? Even his DRTG got worse, which you wouldn't expect with Nash leaving. Did he just give up on the team? That team went 25-57, so hopelessness must have been pretty wide-spread.

In hindsight, the Suns should have traded Gortat when they dumped Nash.

Which guy is the real Gortat?

 

[RR7]

His DRTG got worse because the team rating got worse, but he was still a little over 3 points lower than the team as a whole, which is still really good.
I think the real one is somewhere in between. He can give us about what JJ does on offense, hustle points, ORBs, PnR. He can post up with better success. And, he can cover guys in the post a TON better than JJ could.

 

[Sinobas]

I actually like the idea of getting Gortat. He's better than any center we could get in FA, and would fill a need.

You want cap space, trade LA Freeland to the Cavs for their #1 and, then resign Hickson at 7 mil to be the PF. We take McLemore #1, and the salary downgrade from LA to Hickson leaves us enough to go after another bench player in addition to Maynor.

Lillard/Maynor
McLemore/Matthews
Batum/Claver
Hickson/Landry
Gortat/Leonard

Take a look at that bench....that's a pretty strong bench.

 

[Sinobas]

LA is over-rated..he's a mid-range jump shooter, which is one of the worst shots because you have to shoot a very high % to make it a better shot than a 3pointer. For instance, LA shot 43% from mid range, you only have to shoot 29% from 3pt range to beat that. When a guard takes a high volume of 3pointers but shoots 28%, we'd call him a chucker....but that is exactly what LA is from the mid-range.

 

[magnifier661]

I was talking about if Wes went out. But we're thinking the same things.

If you spend #10 to get Gortat, you have about 4-5M in space left. If you send Wes + 10 out, you actually increase cap space by about a million, but you have no SG's other than Barton on the roster. That's why I was saying that you'd basically have to spend most of that 12M or so trying to get someone like Redick/Evans/Ellis/whoever, while still not really bolstering your bench.

Then get a sf; which is usually a little cheaper and move batum to sf. Then use left over cap space to bring in another bench player.

Although you could retain both hickson and maynor and sign then for a little less than their hold and sign a free agent starter like Evans.

If we use Matthews and #10, we have 12.5 mil. If we sign hickson for 5.5 and maynor for 2.7; we could toss around 5 mil for a SF or use Freeland and cap space for a legit Sf like Iggy.

 

[magnifier661]

I actually like the idea of getting Gortat. He's better than any center we could get in FA, and would fill a need.

You want cap space, trade LA Freeland to the Cavs for their #1 and, then resign Hickson at 7 mil to be the PF. We take McLemore #1, and the salary downgrade from LA to Hickson leaves us enough to go after another bench player in addition to Maynor.

Lillard/Maynor
McLemore/Matthews
Batum/Claver
Hickson/Landry
Gortat/Leonard

Take a look at that bench....that's a pretty strong bench.

The lma trade scenarios are about at unreal as trading Matthews for lebron.

 

[Run BJM]

Which guy is the real Gortat?

IMO its pretty clear who Gortat is at this point. Hes a big, strong, athletic C who plays the pick and roll well, has pretty good hands, can finish and score when hes set up. Defensively hes not great but with his size, strength, and mobility hes decent. Can protect the rim a little bit, won't get bullied down low, and although I don't think he's demonstrated great pick and roll defense I think hes quite capable because hes very mobile for a guy that big.

Hes sort of average on both sides of the ball, which doesn't sound very impressive, but very few NBA C's can say that. I think he'd be a really nice addition for PDX and make the starting unit that much better.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I was talking about if Wes went out. But we're thinking the same things.

If you spend #10 to get Gortat, you have about 4-5M in space left. If you send Wes + 10 out, you actually increase cap space by about a million, but you have no SG's other than Barton on the roster. That's why I was saying that you'd basically have to spend most of that 12M or so trying to get someone like Redick/Evans/Ellis/whoever, while still not really bolstering your bench.

Yeah I agree. There is no way you include the #10 and Wes. And since the topic of this thread is about Phoenix wanting to acquire an extra 1st round pick, like you all said that means the loss of cap space. I think his salary is very good for next year. But then he is a FA, so do we lose him? or Pay him more to keep him?

This brings us right back to one of the other threads about centers. Do you draft one who will be as good as someone like Gordat, (But not for another 1-2 years) or do you buy/absorb a mediocre center after the draft? I would need to see who is available at 10 first. If one of the SG's drop I would prefer to take them with 10 and pay the 8 million on a different mediocre center. (Dalembert?) This way you have two chances of improving your team. Both are far from sure things, but 2 is better than 1.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

You can still keep most of your cap space. If PHX wants the #10 so bad then they take back Freeland.

 

[ebott]

I remember in another thread someone saying that Gortat's 1 on 1 post defense was significantly better than JJ's. Something like Gortat was the 20th best defensive player 1 on 1 in the post in the league and JJ was in the 300's. If that's at all true then that makes me think Gortat would be worth the ~8 mil in cap space and the #10 pick.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If Gortat is good, then the Suns will want to keep him. If he's bad, then we don't want him. So: if the Suns would go for #10 for Gortat, then we shouldn't take it.

"But maybe he needs a change of scene!" But why? Because he quit on the team? Because he wants Steve Nash back? Either way, is he likely to play better in Portland?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

His DRTG got worse because the team rating got worse, but he was still a little over 3 points lower than the team as a whole, which is still really good.

How is DRTG measured? Could this simply be because the team played much slower when he was in?

Gortat: NO. Asik: YES!

I'd honestly rather play a rookie C than get Gortat.

 

[BigGameDamian]

If Gortat is good, then the Suns will want to keep him. If he's bad, then we don't want him. So: if the Suns would go for #10 for Gortat, then we shouldn't take it.

"But maybe he needs a change of scene!" But why? Because he quit on the team? Because he wants Steve Nash back? Either way, is he likely to play better in Portland?

I think Gortat is one of the best big's in the game. He would fit in very nice with Aldridge.

 

[RR7]

If Gortat is good, then the Suns will want to keep him. If he's bad, then we don't want him. So: if the Suns would go for #10 for Gortat, then we shouldn't take it.

"But maybe he needs a change of scene!" But why? Because he quit on the team? Because he wants Steve Nash back? Either way, is he likely to play better in Portland?

That's kind of a ridiculous way to look at a player. So nobody is worth trading for, really, because there team would just keep them. PHX is in need of a rebuild. 29 year old centers don't fit a rebuild. You do recognize that there are teams at different stages of building, no?

 

[RR7]

How is DRTG measured? Could this simply be because the team played much slower when he was in?

Gortat: NO. Asik: YES!

I'd honestly rather play a rookie C than get Gortat.

playing slower isn't going to alter it. It's per possession. And it's great to say get Asik. Sure, why not. Get Hibbert and Marc also. Let's just list people that aren't likely available, and then cry when we don't add someone like that. I also want Paul George and the #2 pick please. Get it done Olshey! Or you suck.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

That's kind of a ridiculous way to look at a player. So nobody is worth trading for, really, because there team would just keep them. PHX is in need of a rebuild. 29 year old centers don't fit a rebuild. You do recognize that there are teams at different stages of building, no?

You say Phoenix is "in need of a rebuild". Well, Goran Dragic is 27. Is that too old? Jared Dudley is also 27. I guess they're in deep shit. Of course, Tim Duncan is about 50. And, of course, Phoenix has the best doctors in the business.

Think about it: this is not a blockbuster draft. Do you really think that, if Gortat is a top 10 center IN THE LEAGUE, that he wouldn't be worth more than the number 10 pick IN THIS DRAFT?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

And it's great to say get Asik. Sure, why not. Get Hibbert and Marc also. Let's just list people that aren't likely available, and then cry when we don't add someone like that.

I think Asik is more likely to be available than Gortat, frankly. Houston has a real shot at Howard, in which case Asik is expendable (because you can't play them both at the same time, and next year Asik would be a $15M backup). Meanwhile, Phoenix has nobody behind Gortat and no shot at Howard.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

PHX was trying to trade Gortat at the deadline for a pick in this very draft as well. They knew at that time that the draft was not all that deep. (Which overall is a myth. - This draft is deep - that is why they want another pick - It just isn't star-studded at the top).

 

[Rastapopoulos]

PHX was trying to trade Gortat at the deadline for a pick in this very draft as well.

1. Evidence?
2. You think that pick was #10?

 

[KeepOnRollin]

I am on my phone right now but it is easy to look up. PHX and OKC were discussing a Gortat for for TOR's 1st rounder. That pick ended up being #12.

As any team would, I am sure they were trying to get a pick as high as they could. No team would bite though so it is pretty obvious that a team didn't want to part with too high of a pick at that point at least.