Rajon Rondo

[Rastapopoulos]

A couple of years ago (after Rondo's rookie season) I was thinking that what we lacked most was a Greg Anthony type lock-down defender at the PG spot. There were times in the Anthony years when he was the most important player on the Blazers (certainly more than the starter, Stoudamire) and I wondered if there was anyone out there like that. The only player I could think of that (at the time) I thought we might be able to get without giving up a core player was Rajon Rondo. Ever since then I have pined for him. But even after his amazing play in the playoffs last year, I was surprised that he seemed to get little respect. Minstrel (whom I otherwise respect) even said he wouldn't trade our own Jerryd Bayless for him. Well, how you like him now? I think it's safe to say that he would cost a core player now.

 

[BlazerFanForLife]

Bayless could turn into a Rondo type player with his on the ball quickness and ability to get into the lane. Rondo is currently better at passing but I'm confident that Bayless already has a equal if not better jumper then Rondo.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Bayless could turn into a Rondo type player with his on the ball quickness and ability to get into the lane. Rondo is currently better at passing but I'm confident that Bayless already has a equal if not better jumper then Rondo.

QFT. I just a have a feeling Bayless is laying in the weeds, working, working, working. If he's not in the rotation at the start of next season it's because he was traded and nothing else.

 

[MickZagger]

Bayless easily has a better jumper than Rondo. Rondo's jumper is horrible outside of about 7 feet.

 

[ehizzy3]

i wouldnt trade bayless for rondo. rondo cant hit an outside jumper so he cant really mesh with roy like bayless can. but rondo is better than bayless, just hard to tell with bayless racking up the DNP's

 

[Minstrel]

Minstrel (whom I otherwise respect) even said he wouldn't trade our own Jerryd Bayless for him. Well, how you like him now? I think it's safe to say that he would cost a core player now.

I like him, and even back then, when I was arguing with meru about him, I modified my opinion about him. I think he's a good player, but I'm still not sure I'd give up Bayless for him. And yes, the Celtics might demand a core player for him, but I certainly wouldn' t give up Roy, Aldridge, Oden or Fernandez for him. Rondo is in a perfect role on the perfect team for his skills. They ask him to play good, active defense and distribute, and he does it well. What makes him quite good is that he also rebounds very well for his position. Bayless isn't guaranteed to be as good as Rondo, of course, but he has the upside to do all the things Rondo does and be a plus shooter.

The Celtics snagged a really valuable role-player in Rondo and I credit them for it. He's made a big difference in complementing Garnett, Pierce and Allen. I don't think it would be a particularly bad move to deal Bayless for Rondo, but you'd be trading upside for certainty. A reasonable choice, but not one I'd make. If I were certain that Oden was going to be a dominant player and Aldridge was going to be star-level, then I might do it, because then I might be less interested in risk/reward and more interested in sure-fire good players to supplement three All-Stars. But since I am not yet certain about Oden and Aldridge (I have good feelings about both), I'd rather take the risk on Bayless' upside.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Why is Rondo a "role player"? Because he's offensively limited? Why can't you be a superstar without scoring much? What about Dennis Rodman? Ben Wallace pre-big contract? Why isn't Rajon Rondo Jason Kidd 2.0? As I said before, what Bayless gives us, we already have, and doesn't add anything to the other four players on the court. Rondo creates way more offense off defense than Bayless would.

 

[Minstrel]

Why is Rondo a "role player"? Because he's offensively limited? Why can't you be a superstar without scoring much?

Because I don't think his production + defense is star level. Being offensively limited hurts. You can be a superstar without much offense, it's just very hard.

What about Dennis Rodman? Ben Wallace pre-big contract? Why isn't Rajon Rondo Jason Kidd 2.0?

He doesn't do anything as well as Rodman. Rodman was one of the best defenders in NBA history and one of the best rebounders in NBA history. I really don't see the comparison. Rondo doesn't do anything even resembling those levels.

I never considered Ben Wallace a superstar. I thought he was an extremely glorified role-player. He got paid superstar money and proceeded to show that that was a vast overrating and became a salary albatross. I actually think Rondo is a superior player to Ben Wallace.

Why can't he be Jason Kidd? Because Kidd was an amazing, Hall of Fame-level distributor and Rondo isn't.

As I said before, what Bayless gives us, we already have, and doesn't add anything to the other four players on the court.

Bayless can give us excellent defense at the point, something the team doesn't have. The other things he provides (passing, shooting, possibly plus rebounding) other players have, yes...so what? Those are things that it's always nice to have more of. It's like saying LeBron James gives us things we already have (passing, scoring, rebounding), so he'd add nothing to the other four players on the floor. That simply doesn't make sense. Adding more of a good thing is valuable. And when it comes from a player who can also be a big defensive asset at a key position, it's even more valuable.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Because I don't think his production + defense is star level. Being offensively limited hurts. You can be a superstar without much offense, it's just very hard.

What's "production"? Do you mean assists/rebounds/points? Rebounding-wise, he's top 5 for PGs. Assists, he's probably top 10. Points, not so much, so he wouldn't be a player you'd necessarily build around, but when you have (as Portland does) more scorers than you have minutes to play them, that's a strength rather than a weakness. And if you watch him play defense, he's exceptional. He's a one-man wrecking crew. He is the American Ricky Rubio, with more athleticism.

He doesn't do anything as well as Rodman. Rodman was one of the best defenders in NBA history and one of the best rebounders in NBA history.

But not both at once. Once he started concentrating on rebounding, everyone said his defense suffered. And at comparable stages in their careers, I think Rondo is better, even at defense (for his position - Rodman could guard more positions, that's true).

I really don't see the comparison. Rondo doesn't do anything even resembling those levels.

Okay, so he's not Dennis Rodman. But it's a false dilemma to say of a great defender that it's either Dennis Rodman or role player.

I never considered Ben Wallace a superstar.

Fair enough. How about "as important to his team's success as most All-Stars"?

I thought he was an extremely glorified role-player.

So, in effect, for you "role player" and "non-scorer" are synonymous?

Why can't he be Jason Kidd? Because Kidd was an amazing, Hall of Fame-level distributor and Rondo isn't.

All right: "a young Gary Payton"?

Bayless can give us excellent defense at the point, something the team doesn't have.

Have we seen Bayless can defend like Rondo? For one thing, Bayless has stumpy arms. For another, I think he just focuses on stopping his man. Rondo sees the whole picture. I bet that Rondo's defense is as much better than Bayless's as Bayless's offense is than Rondo's.

The other things he provides (passing, shooting, possibly plus rebounding) other players have, yes...so what?

Again, Rondo is a PG. The starting PG on the world champions. Bayless never even played PG in college. And scoring is zero sum - when one player shoots, another doesn't get to. That's why Chauncey Billups is better than Allen Iverson.

Those are things that it's always nice to have more of. It's like saying LeBron James gives us things we already have (passing, scoring, rebounding), so he'd add nothing to the other four players on the floor.

If I thought Bayless was LeBron James then trust me, I wouldn't suggest trading him. But I don't. And neither do you.

That simply doesn't make sense. Adding more of a good thing is valuable. And when it comes from a player who can also be a big defensive asset at a key position, it's even more valuable.

Again: adding more of something that isn't zero sum is valuable. Defense is like that. Even if the guy you're guarding doesn't have the ball, it's important to guard him. Shooting is not so much. Particularly in a PG.

 

[Minstrel]

What's "production"? Do you mean assists/rebounds/points?

Sure, and turnovers (negative effect on production). This season, he has played like a star or near-star level player. If he keeps it up, I'll change my opinion of him. Last year, he didn't.

Okay, so he's not Dennis Rodman. But it's a false dilemma to say of a great defender that it's either Dennis Rodman or role player.

I never said any such thing, that you have to be Rodman or a role-player. You brought up Rodman as a comp, I said that I didn't see them as comparable.

So, in effect, for you "role player" and "non-scorer" are synonymous?

Not synonymous, but scoring is an important part of the game. I'd say scoring, distribution and defense are the three most impactful facets of the game, for an individual player, in that order. Rondo is very limited at the first, decent at the second and very good at the third. He's also a very good rebounder, which helps. If he remains at this level, I'd call him a borderline All-Star. If he regresses to last year's level, I'd call him a valuable role-player.

All right: "a young Gary Payton"?

Payton was a better defender, distributor and a much better scorer. if Rondo develops a very dangerous perimeter shot like Payton did (Payton was also a poor shooter when he entered the league) then he might be a similar type of player. He'd need to become a significantly better defender and passer to be the same caliber, though. IMO, Payton was the best defensive point guard ever and one of five best perimeter defenders ever.

 

[44Thrilla]

Rondo can score, they just don't need him to or even ask him to. If you put him on a different team, he could easily score 20 a game.

 

[KingSpeed]

Rondo should make the All Star team. How many PGs can you name out East that are better than him? Devin Harris, Derrick Rose, and Andre Miller are the only ones who compare but Rondo's team plays better.

 

[STOMP]

QFT. I just a have a feeling Bayless is laying in the weeds, working, working, working. If he's not in the rotation at the start of next season it's because he was traded and nothing else.

...or injured. But my best guess is that he'll be the day 1 starter next year. Dude is a great physical talent who projects very well with the core guys. He'll have done a years internship with Nate in his ear and it will be time to put the lessons into action.

I also expect that semi-regularly he'll be cutting into Blake's PT by the 2nd half of this year...and I like SB

STOMP

 

[maxiep]

Rondo should make the All Star team. How many PGs can you name out East that are better than him? Devin Harris, Derrick Rose, and Andre Miller are the only ones who compare but Rondo's team plays better.

Well, that record doesn't have much to do with Rondo. Any of us could play the point on the Celts and they'd still win.

 

[Jurassic]

Rondo should make the All Star team. How many PGs can you name out East that are better than him? Devin Harris, Derrick Rose, and Andre Miller are the only ones who compare but Rondo's team plays better.

Add Calderon to that list. Rondo benefits a lot from the system that he is in, I wouldn't actually consider him to be a better player than Bibby either.

 

[BalancedMan]

I don't think Rondo makes the All-Star game. He's a good player, especially defensively and rebounding, but his shooting is atrocious. You could see that coming out of college. How many other ELITE PGs...neh, ELITE PLAYERS (outside of a center) who shoots about 62% from the FT. That's an abnormality that shows just how weak his shooting is. He's also not a three point threat, which is something that is important.

In order to get maximum value out of Oden, you need to have gunners on the outside. Like Hakeem dishing to Maxwell and Horry back in the day.

Right now? I think it's hard to dispute Rondo is the better player given that he is proven and demonstrated real NBA talent. But Bayless may be just as good in the future. He's got the tools to be a good defender (although I think Rondo will always be better) and a much, much better offensive player as evidence in college and in the Summer League (yes, I know a lot of players can throw down in summer league but still).

So as far as trading players...I don't know why either team would do so.

 

[MickZagger]

Rondo should make the All Star team. How many PGs can you name out East that are better than him? Devin Harris, Derrick Rose, and Andre Miller are the only ones who compare but Rondo's team plays better.

Calderon's better.

 

[MARIS61]

I don't want Rondo, but I do think the key to beating the Cream Puffs tonight will be how well Steve and Sergio can disrupt the passing lanes and prevent him from getting double-digit assists.

His points don't matter, let him get them, but don't let him unite his team as a weapon.

 

[andalusian]

Rondo, IMHO - is one of the big 3 of Boston in impact - ahead of Ray Allen - and I say that as a big Ray Allen fan.

That kid was a steal for the Cs in the 2006 draft - almost as big as us getting both Roy and LMA in that draft.