Record-High 42% of Americans Identify as Independents

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SlyPokerDog

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Republican identification lowest in at least 25 years

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http://www.gallup.com/poll/166763/record-high-americans-identify-independents.aspx
 
Its kind of an embarrassing time to admit you're a Republican. As shown by your chart.
 
Independent and proud of it. Neither unions or churches or anyone else tells me how to vote.
 
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...tisans-in-the-closet-101931.html#.UtP9wHmWwZc

The Partisans in the Closet

Political independents are (mostly) a figment of your imagination.

I'd agree with this, I like to consider myself independent but I can't remember the last time I voted republican for anything. Its not like I try to follow party lines its just that I can't get behind what the republicans are doing at all. I have plenty of complaints about democrats but as of late they always seem to be the lesser or two evils. Then every time there is an independent candidate they always seem to be democrat or republican lite, and while I may like their more moderate message voting for them ends up being a wasted vote as you just divide your liberal or conservative vote into more candidates than the other side. I think we are stuck in this partisan rut for awhile.
 
independent but liberal bent. But there are very few politicians I actually like. Ron Wyden I fully respect. After that, the waters get murky.
 
I registered as a republican in 1984, then as independent in 1988, then switched to Libertarian Party in 2008.
 
I registered as a republican in 1984, then as independent in 1988, then switched to Libertarian Party in 2008.

I'm not a Libertarian at all, and think the ideas over the long haul are dangerous, but over the short term I think it might be a good idea to get a Libertarian in office, bring back a concentrated look at our rights, make it a focus for a few years. fiscally and regarding the duties of government, I disagree with Libertarians, but I like that they protect the amendments so strongly, like the 1st, ,2nd and 4th. I also tend to trust that Libertarians aren't in corporate pockets quite as much as the Republicans and Democrats. Until we can figure out a way to get big money out of politics, I won't really trust any politician to do what's right instead of whats being paid for.
 
I'm not a Libertarian at all, and think the ideas over the long haul are dangerous, but over the short term I think it might be a good idea to get a Libertarian in office, bring back a concentrated look at our rights, make it a focus for a few years. fiscally and regarding the duties of government, I disagree with Libertarians, but I like that they protect the amendments so strongly, like the 1st, ,2nd and 4th. I also tend to trust that Libertarians aren't in corporate pockets quite as much as the Republicans and Democrats. Until we can figure out a way to get big money out of politics, I won't really trust any politician to do what's right instead of whats being paid for.

So if a bunch of union workers pool their money and use it to lobby government, is that a bad thing? (I don't think so). So under what circumstances do you unequally treat groups of people that pool their money for the same purpose?
 
I'm an Independent, but i've been considering changing to Democrat so that i actually have a say in this state. Don't really like either party though.
 
So if a bunch of union workers pool their money and use it to lobby government, is that a bad thing? (I don't think so). So under what circumstances do you unequally treat groups of people that pool their money for the same purpose?

The way it stands now, of course the union should be able to pool it's resources and lobby. And they could do so with taking money out of politics also. Lobbing is just trying to convince the ones with power that your stance is correct. But the money involved is how those who do the lobbing buy the votes instead of truly lobby for their side. They pour money into the campaigns and spend money on superpac advertisements. Although this can result in good or bad outcomes, I think this is where the one biggest problem in all of government lies. The politicians do as lobbyists request not because they show evidence that their stance is the right stance, but because they can spend the most money essentially either buying votes or causing fear.

I don't have a problem with the idea of a lobbyist, someone who represents a bank, teachers, water treatment companies, environmentalists, NRA supporters, or any other lobbyist trying to sway those in power to their line of thinking via the facts, but when the fact don't matter, just the dollar bills, then we end up with a situation where huge amounts of money are spent frivolously in order to keep reelection hopes alive.
 
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The politicians do not do as lobbyists request. Even if there is $1B spent on one side and $100M on the other, the amount lining the pockets of the politician should be $0 or pretty much the same either way. We don't hire politicians to take polls and do what they want, we hire them to rule on our behalf. That's the difference between a Democracy (which we're not) and a Republic.

If the politicians are actually being bought, that's bribery and the politician belongs in jail. So fix those rules :)
 
The Demcrats are afraid that if they don't clearly make it known they're Democrats, nobody will recognize them and they'll miss their free handouts.

But really.... The two party system is a joke. It's not surprising that independents and other parties are rallying. Voting by party is ignorant. Vote for what you believe in and the candidates that most closely resemble your beliefs.
 
That's naive to think that politicians don't do as the lobbyists wish based on money spent. And if an widget company can afford 50 mil, or some amount, they have a much greater chance to get pro-widget laws passed pro-widget policy to be enacted. Doesn't happen every time, it's not a simple slide of money under the table, but it's a quid pro quo situation. No, in most situations it's not a straight bribe, it's more along the lines of a company coming in and saying "we are big supporters of pro-widget politicians and plan to spend 50 mil over the next cycle in support of those candidates" and having that be understood as a de facto bribe, not for money, but for campaign help and also for a high likelihood of a lucrative position upon retiring from government.

There are two big problems, the first I already explained, that money needs to be severed from politics, the second is that companies should not be considered people. People die within a very fixed time frame, companies don't. People can get sent to jail for illegal activities, companies can't. And people have brains and hearts, companies don't. An amendment needs to be made that companies don't get all the rights of people.
 
That's naive to think that politicians don't do as the lobbyists wish based on money spent. And if an widget company can afford 50 mil, or some amount, they have a much greater chance to get pro-widget laws passed pro-widget policy to be enacted. Doesn't happen every time, it's not a simple slide of money under the table, but it's a quid pro quo situation. No, in most situations it's not a straight bribe, it's more along the lines of a company coming in and saying "we are big supporters of pro-widget politicians and plan to spend 50 mil over the next cycle in support of those candidates" and having that be understood as a de facto bribe, not for money, but for campaign help and also for a high likelihood of a lucrative position upon retiring from government.

There are two big problems, the first I already explained, that money needs to be severed from politics, the second is that companies should not be considered people. People die within a very fixed time frame, companies don't. People can get sent to jail for illegal activities, companies can't. And people have brains and hearts, companies don't. An amendment needs to be made that companies don't get all the rights of people.

Here is my current guy to watch how he stacks up the sweet deals. He sure is no example of the highly intelligent, but he has made some bucks the past 10 years.
Must be someone on his team giving him a hand.

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/politics/capitol-assets/member/peter-defazio/
 
Here is my current guy to watch how he stacks up the sweet deals. He sure is no example of the highly intelligent, but he has made some bucks the past 10 years.
Must be someone on his team giving him a hand.

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/politics/capitol-assets/member/peter-defazio/

They are all over the place, and for the most part I don't think they are doing anything illegal. What I am saying is not that some guy earned x amount on stock tips or under the table, I'm saying the future promise of high paying positions or large re-election campaigns are where most of the money in politics is. I'm not trying to call out anyone specific, I think it's far more insidious than something one guy here or there does, I think it's become how the system operates, and you simply have no chance of getting to a fairly high office if you don't operate in this manor.

What I'm saying is the law is bad, it's set up to have policy dictated by dollars over conscience. No matter what, there will be people who break the law and trade their votes for new decking on their houses, but most people, even politicians I believe follow the law. There are simply huge holes in the laws that allow money to dictate policy.





Oh, and from what I know, I like Defazio, but I don't know too much. Just heard him in some interviews and read his name in the paper from time to time. He could be a scumbag, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.
 
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They are all over the place, and for the most part I don't think they are doing anything illegal. What I am saying is not that some guy earned x amount on stock tips or under the table, I'm saying the future promise of high paying positions or large re-election campaigns are where most of the money in politics is. I'm not trying to call out anyone specific, I think it's far more insidious than something one guy here or there does, I think it's become how the system operates, and you simply have no chance of getting to a fairly high office if you don't operate in this manor.

What I'm saying is the law is bad, it's set up to have policy dictated by dollars over conscience. No matter what, there will be people who break the law and trade their votes for new decking on their houses, but most people, even politicians I believe follow the law. There are simply huge holes in the laws that allow money to dictate policy.





Oh, and from what I know, I like Defazio, but I don't know too much. Just heard him in some interviews and read his name in the paper from time to time. He could be a scumbag, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Peter was down here in Bandon talking to us in early 2009. Several of us were skeptical of this healthcare thing and he said he was too, he would watch it closely. Then all the sudden he is all for it and votes for the thing.
I'll be damn if he didn't find away to get a couple million richer at the same time. That quite a feat simultaneous with studying that healthcare bill.

I mailed him this shortly after I found out that myself and a 140,000 other former employees of a once great American company would no long provide us Healthcare.
This after 52 years and now it's legal thanks to the ACR and prompted by this same act specifying the company pay a tax for each person covered with health care.

Dear Peter,

How can it be when you voted for this ACA that you didn't know that people covered by their employer
or former employer in the case of retirees, would be dropped by the employer?
The law contains a Tax on the employers for each person that they would continue to cover.
Why was this tax implemented? It can not be to obtain revenue to cover other people.

If it was, that was very dumb as well as totally unfair to the employers as well as the employees and
retirees.

It sure looks to me like the tax was intended to encourage employers to drop retirees and spouses
to force more people into the exchanges.

MarAzul




Response (Notice he didn't address the questions at all).

Dear Mr. MarAzul:

Thank you for contacting me in favor of repealing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act in its entirety. I appreciate hearing from you.



As you know, the Affordable Care Act (ACA) was upheld by the Supreme Court. The court ruled that the individual mandate requiring all Americans to either purchase health insurance or pay a tax is constitutional.



If you already have private insurance the individual mandate will not affect you. If you have Medicare, VA health care or Medicaid the individual mandate will not affect you. If your income is under 400% of the poverty level, which is currently $44,680 for an individual or $92,200 for a family of 4, you will receive a discount on private health insurance. If you do not fall into any of these categories, and still wish to remain uninsured, you can pay a tax penalty and continue to be uninsured.



Every Oregon family who buys insurance is paying an extra $1,400 in premiums every year to cover the small group of individuals who refuse to insure themselves. The emergency room is required to treat uninsured people. These uninsured patients often do not pay their bills. The hospital passes the cost on to insurance companies, and insurance companies pass the cost on to you. The individual mandate helps to make sure that these people get insurance so that you don't have to pay for them anymore.



There are many aspects of the bill that need to be repealed or reformed, like the burdensome 1099 tax provision that was repealed with my support. There are many others that, I believe, most Americans can agree on.



If the entire health care bill is repealed-

Insurance companies would be able to deny you care because of a pre-existing condition- 316,000 people in Southwest Oregon could be denied care for having had conditions as common as high blood pressure or cholesterol.
Your insurance company would be able to rescind your entire insurance policy on a technicality if you get sick, even if you had paid into that policy all of your life.
Insurance companies would be able to place a cap on how much your policy will pay for medical care each year and over your life. Once you hit the cap they would not pay anything, no matter how much you had paid in premiums.
Your insurance company would be able to kick your kids off of your policy the day that they graduate college.
And if you are one of the 14,600 seniors in Southwest Oregon who fall in the dreaded "donut hole," your prescription drug costs would go up.



All of these were legal practices of the insurance industry prior to being outlawed by the Affordable Care Act. I have many objections to provisions in the Affordable Care Act, and I have heard many concerns from my constituents, but I have never heard anyone say that they want to bring back these abusive practices that only benefit insurance industry profits.



One thing that almost every Member of Congress and constituent that I have talked to has agreed on is my proposal to repeal the health insurance industry anti-trust exemption. The insurance industry has operated beyond the reach of America's anti-trust laws since the McCarran-Ferguson Act was passed in 1945. With this exemption health insurance companies can, and do, collude to drive up prices and exclude people from coverage. This is anti-competitive and anti free market. The Consumer Federation of America has said that repealing this exemption could save consumers 10% to 25% in insurance premiums.



I was able to get a provision to repeal the health insurance industry's anti-trust exemption into the House-passed version of the Affordable Care Act, but the Senate stripped it out. In 2010 the House again passed a repeal of the anti-trust exemption, this time with over 400 bipartisan votes. The Senate again failed to act. I refuse to give into pressure from the insurance industry. Earlier this year I offered an amendment to repeal the anti-trust exemption. Despite the overwhelming bipartisan vote last year, the Republicans did not allow a vote on my amendment. If we are going to fix the healthcare problems in this nation, we need to get beyond rhetoric and move forward with common sense bipartisan solutions such as repealing the health insurance industry anti-trust exemption.



The Affordable Care Act is far from perfect, but I believe that the bill should be reformed rather than repealed. I will be working with my colleagues on both sides of the isle to pass bipartisan reforms, and to remove burdensome provisions and wasteful spending from the existing bill. Thanks again for writing to me on this important issue. Please continue to keep in touch.







Sincerely,

Rep. Peter DeFazio
 
independent but liberal bent. But there are very few politicians I actually like. Ron Wyden I fully respect. After that, the waters get murky.

Same. I've found very few politicians worth voting for. Hooray for throwing your votes away, eh?
 
That's naive to think that politicians don't do as the lobbyists wish based on money spent. And if an widget company can afford 50 mil, or some amount, they have a much greater chance to get pro-widget laws passed pro-widget policy to be enacted. Doesn't happen every time, it's not a simple slide of money under the table, but it's a quid pro quo situation. No, in most situations it's not a straight bribe, it's more along the lines of a company coming in and saying "we are big supporters of pro-widget politicians and plan to spend 50 mil over the next cycle in support of those candidates" and having that be understood as a de facto bribe, not for money, but for campaign help and also for a high likelihood of a lucrative position upon retiring from government.

There are two big problems, the first I already explained, that money needs to be severed from politics, the second is that companies should not be considered people. People die within a very fixed time frame, companies don't. People can get sent to jail for illegal activities, companies can't. And people have brains and hearts, companies don't. An amendment needs to be made that companies don't get all the rights of people.

As a Libertarian, my answer is "if the politician can be bought, he has too much power." Or better put, he should't have the power that is worth trying to bribe.

The money severed from politics is bullshit, sorry.
 
As a Libertarian, my answer is "if the politician can be bought, he has too much power." Or better put, he should't have the power that is worth trying to bribe.

The money severed from politics is bullshit, sorry.

And this is a fundamental disagreement between you and I. I understand your point of view, as I'm sure you understand mine. We just both think the other is wrong.


But for the most part I've become jaded about the entire subject and rarely discuss it because regardless of which one of us is right, the system that is currently in place is wrong, and it ain't going away any time soon. I do feel disenfranchised, that my vote has no meaning and the promises of virtually every politician means nothing once elected. That there are people who matter and then ones that don't to our politicians, and that I fall in the group that doesn't matter. And what is even worse, our media doesn't seem to take their responsibility seriously. They never keep on important stories and hold peoples feet to the fire. The press is too concerned with making money, and the politicians are too concerned with gaining power and potentially money too.
 
And this is a fundamental disagreement between you and I. I understand your point of view, as I'm sure you understand mine. We just both think the other is wrong.


But for the most part I've become jaded about the entire subject and rarely discuss it because regardless of which one of us is right, the system that is currently in place is wrong, and it ain't going away any time soon. I do feel disenfranchised, that my vote has no meaning and the promises of virtually every politician means nothing once elected. That there are people who matter and then ones that don't to our politicians, and that I fall in the group that doesn't matter. And what is even worse, our media doesn't seem to take their responsibility seriously. They never keep on important stories and hold peoples feet to the fire. The press is too concerned with making money, and the politicians are too concerned with gaining power and potentially money too.

History, as I know it, shows that the Progressive Movement is almost entirely responsible for the mess we have.

Through the early 1900s, elections were about the constitution. New states' rights if they joined, slavery, etc.

It's not a partisan thing, this Progressive Movement. There were political leaders of both parties who embraced it - Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson to name two, one a republican the other a democrat.

The Progressives' idea was that constitutional government was flawed and the constitution, too. It is too hard to amend and it restricts the damages they wished to inflict on the populace. Specifically, their idea is that government should be a lot of committees deciding everything, each one headed and populated by experts in the matter they rule over. They won. All we have are lots of committees (FCC, FTC, SEC, IRS, etc.) deciding everything, each one headed and populated by experts.

Unfortunately, these people are not elected and often have little oversight until they get caught doing something wrong. Like the recent IRS 501c4 scandal.

Holding peoples' feet to the fire isn't the answer. The bigger organizations get, public or private sector, the less rational their decisions are. And government dwarfs the biggest private sector organizations (corporations), so it is ridiculously irrational.

Why is it irrational? Because the people employed are interested in their own agendas, most of the time those aren't in the best interest of anything but their own well being. Decisions become political (no 501c4s for tea party groups, the bridge thing in NJ) or turf related. It is a whole science unto itself, this irrationality. I am hardly doing it justice here.

Most things are now way too complicated for the common man to even care anymore. I think they need streetlights on the main drag where I live because it is really dark at night and dangerous. The sidewalks are broken or uneven and you're likely to trip. It's hard to see people crossing the street if you're driving. So if I go to city hall and complain, I'll get a huge runaround and no satisfaction. You'd need to be a CPA to study the city budget to identify where priorities are made in the wrong order (putting up signs in the parks vs. street lights or whatever). And then you'd need to convince the people who spend the money to change the priorities - people who don't want to piss off the sign making companies.

It's just unworkable. I've come to the right conclusion. Maybe you will eventually.

Remember this: even the typical guy in the local zoning office has the power to zone the curb in front of your restaurant as a 15 minute loading only zone. If you don't pay the bribe.
 
History, as I know it, shows that the Progressive Movement is almost entirely responsible for the mess we have.

Through the early 1900s, elections were about the constitution. New states' rights if they joined, slavery, etc.

It's not a partisan thing, this Progressive Movement. There were political leaders of both parties who embraced it - Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson to name two, one a republican the other a democrat.

The Progressives' idea was that constitutional government was flawed and the constitution, too. It is too hard to amend and it restricts the damages they wished to inflict on the populace. Specifically, their idea is that government should be a lot of committees deciding everything, each one headed and populated by experts in the matter they rule over. They won. All we have are lots of committees (FCC, FTC, SEC, IRS, etc.) deciding everything, each one headed and populated by experts.

Unfortunately, these people are not elected and often have little oversight until they get caught doing something wrong. Like the recent IRS 501c4 scandal.

Holding peoples' feet to the fire isn't the answer. The bigger organizations get, public or private sector, the less rational their decisions are. And government dwarfs the biggest private sector organizations (corporations), so it is ridiculously irrational.

Why is it irrational? Because the people employed are interested in their own agendas, most of the time those aren't in the best interest of anything but their own well being. Decisions become political (no 501c4s for tea party groups, the bridge thing in NJ) or turf related. It is a whole science unto itself, this irrationality. I am hardly doing it justice here.

Most things are now way too complicated for the common man to even care anymore. I think they need streetlights on the main drag where I live because it is really dark at night and dangerous. The sidewalks are broken or uneven and you're likely to trip. It's hard to see people crossing the street if you're driving. So if I go to city hall and complain, I'll get a huge runaround and no satisfaction. You'd need to be a CPA to study the city budget to identify where priorities are made in the wrong order (putting up signs in the parks vs. street lights or whatever). And then you'd need to convince the people who spend the money to change the priorities - people who don't want to piss off the sign making companies.

It's just unworkable. I've come to the right conclusion. Maybe you will eventually.

Remember this: even the typical guy in the local zoning office has the power to zone the curb in front of your restaurant as a 15 minute loading only zone. If you don't pay the bribe.

Yup, things are a lot more complicated than they were in the early 1900's.

And things sure were a lot better then, weren't they? Wasn't any corruption back then, no sirree!

Those were the days.
And you knew who you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men,
Mister we could use a man
Like Chester A. Arthur again.
Didn't need no welfare state,
Everybody pulled his weight.
Gee our old horse and buggy ran great.
Those were the days.

barfo
 
Yup, things are a lot more complicated than they were in the early 1900's.

And things sure were a lot better then, weren't they? Wasn't any corruption back then, no sirree!

Those were the days.
And you knew who you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men,
Mister we could use a man
Like Chester A. Arthur again.
Didn't need no welfare state,
Everybody pulled his weight.
Gee our old horse and buggy ran great.
Those were the days.

barfo

Things are a lot more complicated because there are lots of committees making rules (since the early 1900s) that overly complicate things.


Duh.
 
Yup, things are a lot more complicated than they were in the early 1900's.

And things sure were a lot better then, weren't they? Wasn't any corruption back then, no sirree!

Those were the days.
And you knew who you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men,
Mister we could use a man
Like Chester A. Arthur again.
Didn't need no welfare state,
Everybody pulled his weight.
Gee our old horse and buggy ran great.
Those were the days.

barfo

Darn tootin'. We don't need no stinkin' experts learning stuff about shit and telling us what's what. The Constitution knows best!
 
Darn tootin'. We don't need no stinkin' experts learning stuff about shit and telling us what's what. The Constitution knows best!

The constitution says YOU know what's best for you.

Which is almost certainly true.

When you're not sure, YOU can ask the expert of your choice.
 
Denny, I look at social security and see it as a great program that benefits our society. I guess that you see it as a boondoggle. I see public education as a great thing that government should provide. Although I would certainly like more rigorous standards and more money going into this. Same with healthcare. I am not so much of a fan of what we have now, I would like a truly universal coverage. These are difficult things to get right, but they can be done and as a society we should be looking year after year at how to improve what we have and work towards actually achieving a well functioning system, not throwing the baby out with the bath water and saying fuck it. We are more than a collection of individuals and the best way in my opinion to forge a great society is to find that fine line between the pooling of resources to form the scaffolding of a quality society and still permitting individuals to retain their own identity and decision making. This line is different for you and me.
 

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